Margaret Thatcher split off topic

[Sheepy]

By the way, you can't say Left wing party, you have to say "centre Left" or otherwise you are not in the centre but a left wing agitator. But your biggest problem was when signing up in droves for the Labour party, is your idealism had nothing in common with Labours Parliamentary wing, you were just a usable resource.

[Thomas]

The problem is that the political/economic/media elites who control everything down here don't want a genuine democratic choice, lest one of those choices threaten them. They just want two different versions of the same old shit to give the illusion of democracy.

im not sure again i agre with that mate. I addressed this earlier , when i pointed out most of scotlands media are owned and controlled from outside our country , and are 99% anti scot indy and snp , yet this didnt stop the snp winning .

Further , the main battle for hearts and minds has moved online a long time ago , media barons outlets are dwarfed in terms of readership to online outlets .

And complicit in that will be their establishment allies in our own party.

sir keir , knight of the realm starmer certainly seems in that mold steve.

The lesson we on the left need to learn is that cooperating with these elements in our own ranks - still less appeasing them - doesn't actually work. It only empowers and emboldens them. We need to deal with the Thatcherite collaborators in our own ranks ruthlessly, so that we are fit to challenge the citadels of the elites without being attacked from the rear all the time.

i would think so. Blairism has been  a high price to pay for labour , it has destroyed your party and rendered politics in your country meanigless.

They need carved out root and branch for labour to have a hope in succeeding in england.

[Good old]

what centre left affiliation?

Im a nationalist?

Just a little one Thomas , the world refers , to ,the British, Navy, the British Army, the British government , at the Olympics  we are GB. Strictly  speaking you  are right . But  that's  how the world sees us. That is until you lot f—k off.
Yer a nationalist that has no trouble voting for a majority left of centre policy.  I don't use my nationalism on my sleeve , I just own up to supporting left of centre policy.  Yet you think you don't come across as someone who wastes reams of space to go nowhere.

[srb7677]

England is crying out for a left wing party , its not healthy for your democracy having the blairites back in charge.

The problem is that the political/economic/media elites who control everything down here don't want a genuine democratic choice, lest one of those choices threaten them. They just want two different versions of the same old shit to give the illusion of democracy.

Anyone who threatens that will face the full force of Thatcherite establishment dirty tricks. And complicit in that will be their establishment allies in our own party.

The lesson we on the left need to learn is that cooperating with these elements in our own ranks - still less appeasing them - doesn't actually work. It only empowers and emboldens them. We need to deal with the Thatcherite collaborators in our own ranks ruthlessly, so that we are fit to challenge the citadels of the elites without being attacked from the rear all the time.

I wish I had what you guys have - a political option to leave the corrupt set up.

[Sheepy]

Ah yes the infamous Westminster middle ground, what can we tell them that will win them back over, not like we will have to actually follow up on anything we say, once elected. It has always been Blairs magic stick he waves around. The middle ground. LOL.

[Thomas]

I don't think Labour are not learning .

I do. You think labour electing starmer as leader , offering more blairism , is labour "learning the lessons of past mistakes?"

As far as Scotland is concerned , my only surprise is it has taken so long to get even to where it is

You need to be more coherent mate. What do you mean?

That you are surprised is taken labour so long to fall so far in scotland?

I think it has been long in the making  , but also a pretty quick fall from grace when you consider it was only five years ago they held the majority of scottish seats at westminster. So not sure what you are on about?

.I don't pretend to know the mood of Scotland

Thats pretty obvious!

I do have Scots heritage,

Yawn. If i had a pound for every time i have been told this online i would be a rich man.

So feckin what?

There are more folk of scots decent in north carolina than scotland. Should i be offering allegiance to america or something because of it?

so I know how many think there without it giving me the right  to say to,much on the subject

Can you translate this please?

You think scots heritage gives you a right to a say on scotland? Does that apply to donald trump ? 

( voting rights for trump according to good old )

I see the Tories never really figured there

well you would be wrong. The old scottish conservative party was once the dominant force in scotland.

..and labour support the new conservative party in scotland today.

The Labour Party did ,so it was them that needed replacing

just as labour replaced the conservatives. Your point?

if it wasn't for devolution , would that have happened so quickly

yes.

There was growing anger about labour as far back as the 80`s and the likes of the feeble fifty.Is this you looking for something else to blame outside of labour yet again? This time devolution?

The road to Westminster , in England  is through the middle ground , The article is wrong to think otherwise

so how come the tories , with what you describe as their increasingly right wing nationalistic politics , been beating labour especially the "centre ground" blairites , for the last ten years?

Do you have selective amnesia about labours poor fortunes pre corbyn or something?

Corbyns reception proves that you can not appear to move away from middle England .

Rubbish he nearly won in 2017 , and the big reason he lost in december wasnt policy , but starmers directing an anti democratic view on brexit.

Ask ex labour voters on here why they voted tory for the first time in their lives, it wasnt because of some mythical movement away from the middle ground.

The trick in England ,is to either take that ground from the Tory, or at the least pull him bodily into it.

rubbish , and the last ten years has proved that rubbish , as does the article i quoted.

You think people want more blairism then more fool you.

And my hope is Starmer , will end up proving he can do better than than the gaff prone idiot ,the present darling of that middle ground .

lmfao. He was the architect of labours disasterous general election strategy in 2019.

Listen to srb as well , he has told you he is going to fight you for control of the soul of his party .

Without Scots support it gets harder but ,it ain't over yet Thomas.

it will be in just over twenty weeks time when you finally brexit and accept democracy.

[Good old]

prophetic article from 2013 regarding why labour are to blame for UKIP ( and brexit by default...)

This shouldn't take long. Since 1997, and particularly since 2001, what passes for the political ideology of the Labour Party in Britain could be accurately summed up in one short phrase: be the smallest possible single step to the left of the Tories.



Protected by the grossly undemocratic First Past The Post electoral system – which discriminates massively against third parties and ensures that Labour or the Tories can secure huge, unassailable majorities on barely more than a third of the vote – Tony Blair's brilliant, ruinous flash of political inspiration was the willingness to fully grasp the implication of that fact: that Labour could effectively all but become the Tories and still capture the left-wing vote, because that vote had nowhere else to go.


The phenomenon has only become more marked since Labour lost power. Shadow Cabinet members now line up to appear on the news promising to be tougher on immigration and tougher on the poor. (So desperate, in fact, are Labour not to be seen as "soft" on welfare they're actually to the right of UKIP on the subject.) When Johann Lamont talks of changing (or "re-energising") the Scottish devolution settlement, it's not in terms of bringing more powers to Edinburgh but more "responsibilities", echoing precisely the words of Scottish Tory leader Ruth Davidson.

(Poor old Scottish Labour still haven't managed to work out that the strategy that served the party so well south of the border doesn't work in Scottish Parliament elections, because something approaching a fair electoral system DOES give voters more than a choice between Tweedledum and Tweedledumber.)

]For as long as Labour continue to handcuff themselves to the Tories in pursuit of Middle England votes, then, UKIP will continue to rise. And in the process, Labour will continue to dig itself deeper into a hole, pushing the terms of political discourse further and further onto the ground where it's least comfortable and least trusted, and making it easier and easier for UKIP to dictate the agenda.

(With a side effect that Labour voters in the poorest areas, especially in the north of England, will also become easier prey for super-extremists like the BNP, who capitalise on the desperation of working-class poverty with what are fairly left-wing economic policies ostensibly funded by excluding ethnic minorities from services.)

Labour seems deadlocked into this cycle of self-destruction, completely bereft of the courage to offer the electorate a genuine alternative to Conservative ideology. The unfortunate British public has only begun to suffer the consequences

https://wingsoverscotland.com/why-labour-are-to-blame-for-ukip/#more-33702


7 years on from this article , and its same old same old from labour........not listening to anyone and blaming everyone else for thier failures . Long may it continue

I don't think, Labour are not learning . As far as Scotland is concerned , my only surprise is it has taken so long to get even to where it is .I don't pretend to know the mood of Scotland . I do have Scots heritage, so I know how many think there without it giving me the right  to say to,much on the subject . I see the Tories never really figured there . The Labour Party did ,so it was them that needed replacing , if it wasn't for devolution , would that have happened so quickly ? Just a question not a judgement.
The road to Westminster , in England  is through the middle ground , The article is wrong to think otherwise . Corbyns reception proves that you can not appear to move away from middle England . The trick in England ,is to either take that ground from the Tory, or at the least pull him bodily into it.  And my hope is Starmer , will end up proving he can do better than than the gaff prone idiot ,the present darling of that middle ground . It's  the reason I said some time back we always have a shade Of Tory, here . Without Scots support it gets harder but ,it ain't over yet Thomas.

[Thomas]

]Many of us flocked to Labour in our thousands because Jeremy Corbyn offered something very different to the shit your quote so accurately described.

i know steve , may i say most of what i have written isnt aimed at you. Its aimed at people like good old , who is an out and out blairite and worshipper at the feet of old tony.

Over the course of tonys three election victories as we have discssed many a time , the blairites lost millions of labour voters , their "core"   , and people like good old are cheerleaders by his own acknowledgement of starmer and a new wave of blairism , but just doesnt get how this is unpalatable to the public.

We were back to being for the many not the few. It didn't really work very well north of the border for the simple reason that the progressive vote up there had long since abandoned us because they had the SNP option

.

i agree mate. Bit more to it than progressiveness, but by and large your right.

We could not undo the long term damage done by Blair and others.

Thats what i have been trying to educate our blair worshipping friend good old on. He thinks we are crying out for more blairism in his delusion!

The mass influx of new left leaning members that occurred south of the border thus never materialised in Scotland, so the Scottish Labour Party remained irredeemably Blairite, which made it toxic.

Not sure i agree with this steve.

Ricky leopard as he is affectionately known was corbyns hand picked man , as was many on the labour benches at holyrood.

The simple fact of the matter is scotland has no more use for this union , and whatever progressiveness corbyn offered was overshadowed by westminsters behaviour .

As for south of the border, Starmer has succeeded in hoodwinking enough party pragmatists into believing him to be a more electable socialist, to take over the party. Yet he is and always was solidly backed by all those Blairite New Labour types. I see it in my local party down here as well as nationally. And some of his moves thus far are a cause of great dismay to me and others on the genuine progressive left. I fear the lessons of the Blair years throughout the UK and particularly in Scotland have not been learned, and those who want a return to those attitudes feel themselves again to be in the ascendant.

exactly , the blairites are now trying to spin a new record about the election in 2019 all being corbyns fault.......how he was too left wing etc etc. The simple fact of the matter is starmer held corbyns feet to the fire in that election as we all know and destroyed corbyns chances by taking an anti demcratic view on brexit.

In scotland , remember the last election the blairites were in charge was in 2015 , how did that go for them pre corbyn?

Jim murphy , an out and out blairite , and his boss ed milliband lost labour 40 of 41 scottish seats. They never learn these clowns  like good old.

But the party still has many hundreds of thousands of genuinely progressive if increasingly dismayed members south of the border and willing to fight from within for something better. And our time will come again when Starmer is seen to fail - as he will sooner or later.

Starmer will fail. Blairism has had its day.....offering the people more of the same small c conservtism is what drove many to ote for smaller unknown parties in the blairite years , and the "electoral record" of blair fails under close scrutiny when you consider he was massviely protected under the unfairness of FPTP and won large majorities on less than a third of the vote , sometimes as low as less than a quarter , while losing millions of voters in the process.

Up there you have the SNP. Were I living in Scotland I too would have long ago abandoned Labour to back you. But south of the border our least bad option is to stay in the party and fight, and not give the Blairites a free run. Because without actually realising it they will ultimately destroy us if not effectively challenged.

England is crying out for a left wing party , its not healthy for your democracy having the blairites back in charge.

[Thomas]

I'm going to be as brief as I can because most of that is just more of the same bullshit you take pleasure in reiterating time after time.

Translation..........good old doesnt like listning to home truths.

Of course the EU question had been there since it's inception , austerity , No matter the cause of austerity was the match that lit fuse that was there to be lit. Of course you will disagree.

All over the place. How can austerity be the match that lit the fuse when you readily agree brexit and the eu issue has been simmering away for years?

You arent making any sense and are merely clutching at straws.

I posted an article from 2013 which details how new labours politics of being slightly to the left of the tories as marginally possible was one reason behind the rise of ukip and brexit. This didnt happen post 2010 tory austerity did it?

This began in 1997.

Again though you run away from also acknowledging your part you played in giving the tories an excuse for austerity , never mind completely ignoring the whole brexit issue for the whole time you were in power and in denial most the the time you were out of power.

The SNP are left of centre in almost every thing they do in day to day activity.

and how many time do i need to tell you and explain i dont vote for them wether they are left right or centre , neither do many others , we vote for them because they are a scottish indy party.

What is it you dont get about this?

Are you not understanding my english , or the fact im telling you over and over the yes movement has a wide range of political views who vote snp.?

I mean does it make you feel comfortable or somethig putting parties and people into little niches? Or is it more the fact its an unconfortable topic for you , and you want to drage the dicsussion onto comfortable ground like the nhs or helping the poor and all the other old labour party tropes?

Even to the extent of repulsing the Tories. at every opportunity

labour dont as we have discussed. You work hand in hand with the "Evil tories" in scotland at every opportunity , so they cant be that bad.

Nationalist labels don't alter that  and you can't avoid the fact you support a party that is essentially socialist leaning

Im a scottish nationalist who votes primarily for a scottish nationalist party. Thats why i vote for them.........nationalism and scottish indy. What is it you arent getting?

You know the choice to choose what type of politics i want in my country  rather than having yours force their politics down our throats?

So when you crack into me for being  nothing more than left of centre . You are a fraud.

Still not getting your point , and you certainly arent getting mine.

Labour ,are nationalist because they believe in the UK,

As the snp are by believing in scotland. So what are you denigrating nationalism for then ? You are merely arguing your nationalism in your opinion is better than mine.

you know that world famous nation known as Great Britain.

There is no nation on this earth , now or ever in history , known as great britain. Thats a geograhpical name of an island off the coast of europe , which is part of the uk multi national state , and consists of three nations ( on the island itself).

I couldn't care less about your Scots identity

i know , just as i couldnt care less about your british identity.

it's your centre left affiliation I find interesting.

what centre left affiliation?

Im a nationalist?

[srb7677]

prophetic article from 2013 regarding why labour are to blame for UKIP ( and brexit by default...)

This shouldn't take long. Since 1997, and particularly since 2001, what passes for the political ideology of the Labour Party in Britain could be accurately summed up in one short phrase: be the smallest possible single step to the left of the Tories.



Protected by the grossly undemocratic First Past The Post electoral system – which discriminates massively against third parties and ensures that Labour or the Tories can secure huge, unassailable majorities on barely more than a third of the vote – Tony Blair's brilliant, ruinous flash of political inspiration was the willingness to fully grasp the implication of that fact: that Labour could effectively all but become the Tories and still capture the left-wing vote, because that vote had nowhere else to go.


The phenomenon has only become more marked since Labour lost power. Shadow Cabinet members now line up to appear on the news promising to be tougher on immigration and tougher on the poor. (So desperate, in fact, are Labour not to be seen as "soft" on welfare they're actually to the right of UKIP on the subject.) When Johann Lamont talks of changing (or "re-energising") the Scottish devolution settlement, it's not in terms of bringing more powers to Edinburgh but more "responsibilities", echoing precisely the words of Scottish Tory leader Ruth Davidson.

(Poor old Scottish Labour still haven't managed to work out that the strategy that served the party so well south of the border doesn't work in Scottish Parliament elections, because something approaching a fair electoral system DOES give voters more than a choice between Tweedledum and Tweedledumber.)

]For as long as Labour continue to handcuff themselves to the Tories in pursuit of Middle England votes, then, UKIP will continue to rise. And in the process, Labour will continue to dig itself deeper into a hole, pushing the terms of political discourse further and further onto the ground where it's least comfortable and least trusted, and making it easier and easier for UKIP to dictate the agenda.

(With a side effect that Labour voters in the poorest areas, especially in the north of England, will also become easier prey for super-extremists like the BNP, who capitalise on the desperation of working-class poverty with what are fairly left-wing economic policies ostensibly funded by excluding ethnic minorities from services.)

Labour seems deadlocked into this cycle of self-destruction, completely bereft of the courage to offer the electorate a genuine alternative to Conservative ideology. The unfortunate British public has only begun to suffer the consequences

https://wingsoverscotland.com/why-labour-are-to-blame-for-ukip/#more-33702


7 years on from this article , and its same old same old from labour........not listening to anyone and blaming everyone else for thier failures . Long may it continue

Many of us flocked to Labour in our thousands because Jeremy Corbyn offered something very different to the shit your quote so accurately described. We were back to being for the many not the few. It didn't really work very well north of the border for the simple reason that the progressive vote up there had long since abandoned us because they had the SNP option. We could not undo the long term damage done by Blair and others. The mass influx of new left leaning members that occurred south of the border thus never materialised in Scotland, so the Scottish Labour Party remained irredeemably Blairite, which made it toxic. Scots were thus given an option of voting for a UK wide party with a genuinely progressive leadership, but saddled with a local party irredeemably Blairite. No wonder not enough of them were convinced. Scottish Blairites are an albatross around our necks, ensuring Labour can never rebuild in Scotland. Yet their accolytes are too stupid to see that. They persist in believing themselves to be the solution without actually recognising that they are the problem.

As for south of the border, Starmer has succeeded in hoodwinking enough party pragmatists into believing him to be a more electable socialist, to take over the party. Yet he is and always was solidly backed by all those Blairite New Labour types. I see it in my local party down here as well as nationally. And some of his moves thus far are a cause of great dismay to me and others on the genuine progressive left. I fear the lessons of the Blair years throughout the UK and particularly in Scotland have not been learned, and those who want a return to those attitudes feel themselves again to be in the ascendant.

But the party still has many hundreds of thousands of genuinely progressive if increasingly dismayed members south of the border and willing to fight from within for something better. And our time will come again when Starmer is seen to fail - as he will sooner or later.

Up there you have the SNP. Were I living in Scotland I too would have long ago abandoned Labour to back you. But south of the border our least bad option is to stay in the party and fight, and not give the Blairites a free run. Because without actually realising it they will ultimately destroy us if not effectively challenged.

[Good old]

Answer 1 So you and how many more  knew that if you offered Europe, as  a bag to hit after years of Tory austerity the answer was going to be hit the foreigner . Me and meany of all parties tried to turn people to face their real problem which is here at home. Not that clever .

The problem of "europe" is something that has simmered away in "english" politics for decades. Im not sure what you are trying to imply here , but if i read your incoherent rambling correct , you appear to be suggesting brexit was nothing more than a diversion away from tory austerity.

Without even touching on the fact the very reason we had "tory austerity" , wether you agree with it or not , was as a result of labours profligacy when in power , generations indebted for labours wastefullness and PFI debt etc.

So no europe wasnt just some spontaneous diversion that appeared out of no where. Its something that simmered along for decades  , causing the tories to fight among each other like rats in a sack , while labour desperately tried to ignore  the views of their heartlands in places like northern england over the european issue , as ukip gradually more and more ate into their vote .

You didnt try and turn the voters minds towards problems at home.........what you did was try and ignore their views over something that obviously concerned them as it was out of your comfort zone of bleating about the nhs and helping the poor.

....and we had the predictable result of labour taking a fckin hammering over it.

Answer 2 So your a Scotsman damed to support a party that in its day to day business is just as left of centre as me. Ho,ho, frigging Ho. Your no where near a fraud then?

Wait what?

The SNP are now a left of centre party? Thats despite the fact you labour mob have spent my entire lifetime moaning about them being the tartan tories?

Seems to me the snp are what anyone wants them to be however the argument flows!

I told you many a time , i vote snp for scot indy. In an indy scotland , i wont necessarily vote snp , i will vote for whichever party suits my politics.

Answer 3 What's correct is , all MPs and private citizens were and still are at liberty to question the implementation of Brexit . That's fact

Course they were! Who has said they couldnt?

As long as the referendum result was implemented , they could question away till their hearts were content.

Answer4 Now we are getting there , Much as you like the idea of Our democracy getting a kicking . Starmers, didn't .Corbyns Labour policy did. I think it's our democracy you aim at.

I , and many of us on this forum , championed the idea of democracy and its implementation , while folk like you didnt , as you can't take it when democracy works against you.

Sometimes you have to accept it when you lose old son!

Answer 5 it's obvious why your suspect, look at the previous answers.

I think anyone who doesnt blindly follow your view or politics is suspect in your book.

Answer 6 persuaded ,Thomas. More over egging on your part.

So thomas / fleet street / nasty tories / snp etc etc dont have powers of mind control over the easily fooled voter , we are all just very good at persuading?

Listen to yourself  , and your absolute contempt for those around you.

Answer7 I'm not as tired as I was this morning.  The Labour I would support is the one You  fraudulently give succour  to with your vote ,Minus , the Nationalist label .

Minus the nationalist label?

You are all over the place yet again. Do you remember what you wrote only a few posts ago?

Labour are a nationalist party , british nationalist , as we agreed , and you yourself are a nationalist as you announced earlier . Nationalist labels arent a problem for you at all , just nationalist labels thet arent your nationalism.

The only independence I want is independence of having to accept Tory rule
as inevitable.

See i love this sort of patronising drivel about wanting to be free from tory rule from you labour wallopers. Thats what scottish independence does , makes scotland free from tory rule  forever. Labour told us they didnt want that , and that they would rather scotland is ruled by the english tories than independent.

Further , not only did you do the tories dirty work for them in 2014 and paid the price dearly , you feckin go into coaltion with them at council level in scotland to keep the snp out.

Thats how much labour hate tory rule . 

Brexit is happening . It's accepted . Only if you think our democracy is not democracy , is your argument valid . Make your mind up . Just say it I won't be upset. Hard brexit was always intended by the dedicated .
You like to lump me as the incarnation of Labour. On this issue I'm much clearer .I don't want Brexit. I don't want a deal. because there isn't a deal that doesn't betray the nation.  I accepted we are going to have to deal with Brexit hard as it will be to deal with hard brexit. A perfectly honest approach to a possible national mistake. It happens in democratic decision making sometimes. One thing that won't go away is we all know who to blame  if it turns out bad, it won't be the people  who opposed it. Or tried to say it should never be questioned.

Im not a grammar nazi by any stretch of the imagination , far from it , but you really must try and sort your posts out into something resembling coherent.

I have read this paragraph of yours now a few times and i still can't make any sense of what you are rambling on about.

Stay off the weed mate.

I'm going to be as brief as I can because most of that is just more of the same bullshit you take pleasure in reiterating time after time.
Of course the EU question had been there since it's inception , austerity , No matter the cause of austerity was the match that lit fuse that was there to be lit. Of course you will disagree.
The SNP are left of centre in almost every thing they do in day to day activity. Even to the extent of repulsing the Tories. at every opportunity . Nationalist labels don't alter that  and you can't avoid the fact you support a party that is essentially socialist leaning . So when you crack into me for being  nothing more than left of centre . You are a fraud.
Labour ,are nationalist because they believe in the UK, you know that world famous nation known as Great Britain. They don't use it as a label . I couldn't care less about your Scots identity , it's your centre left affiliation I find interesting.
The last little sentence was a tired slip. The rest is completely intelligible , saying you are not a grammar Nazi, we will have take your word for . As you expect us to do with so much more of what you have to say.

[Thomas]

prophetic article from 2013 regarding why labour are to blame for UKIP ( and brexit by default...)

This shouldn't take long. Since 1997, and particularly since 2001, what passes for the political ideology of the Labour Party in Britain could be accurately summed up in one short phrase: be the smallest possible single step to the left of the Tories.



Protected by the grossly undemocratic First Past The Post electoral system – which discriminates massively against third parties and ensures that Labour or the Tories can secure huge, unassailable majorities on barely more than a third of the vote – Tony Blair's brilliant, ruinous flash of political inspiration was the willingness to fully grasp the implication of that fact: that Labour could effectively all but become the Tories and still capture the left-wing vote, because that vote had nowhere else to go.


The phenomenon has only become more marked since Labour lost power. Shadow Cabinet members now line up to appear on the news promising to be tougher on immigration and tougher on the poor. (So desperate, in fact, are Labour not to be seen as "soft" on welfare they're actually to the right of UKIP on the subject.) When Johann Lamont talks of changing (or "re-energising") the Scottish devolution settlement, it's not in terms of bringing more powers to Edinburgh but more "responsibilities", echoing precisely the words of Scottish Tory leader Ruth Davidson.

(Poor old Scottish Labour still haven't managed to work out that the strategy that served the party so well south of the border doesn't work in Scottish Parliament elections, because something approaching a fair electoral system DOES give voters more than a choice between Tweedledum and Tweedledumber.)

]For as long as Labour continue to handcuff themselves to the Tories in pursuit of Middle England votes, then, UKIP will continue to rise. And in the process, Labour will continue to dig itself deeper into a hole, pushing the terms of political discourse further and further onto the ground where it's least comfortable and least trusted, and making it easier and easier for UKIP to dictate the agenda.

(With a side effect that Labour voters in the poorest areas, especially in the north of England, will also become easier prey for super-extremists like the BNP, who capitalise on the desperation of working-class poverty with what are fairly left-wing economic policies ostensibly funded by excluding ethnic minorities from services.)

Labour seems deadlocked into this cycle of self-destruction, completely bereft of the courage to offer the electorate a genuine alternative to Conservative ideology. The unfortunate British public has only begun to suffer the consequences

https://wingsoverscotland.com/why-labour-are-to-blame-for-ukip/#more-33702


7 years on from this article , and its same old same old from labour........not listening to anyone and blaming everyone else for thier failures . Long may it continue

[Thomas]

Now, now ,Mister Dawg, If we don't agree on vital issues that has to be problem of sorts. You obviously haven't noticed or ignored the fact that I have received close on the full put down armoury Of Thomas, and others on here .
I am actually a slightly left of centre , individual that detests the idea of Brexit, and above all fully supports our parliamentary democracy ,as practiced within the bounds of what is accepted by law and precedent.   You would think that makes me the No enemy of the state , because I don't look like falling line with the brexit motivated Tory movement.
So don't feel to hard done by its very much a two way street .

The full put down?

I havent , im merely giving you a few home truths in that drug muddled new labour world of yours .

just over 20 weeks to go till the implementation of brexit and satisfying democracy.

Im sure we can all raise a glass to that.

[Thomas]

Answer 1 So you and how many more  knew that if you offered Europe, as  a bag to hit after years of Tory austerity the answer was going to be hit the foreigner . Me and meany of all parties tried to turn people to face their real problem which is here at home. Not that clever .

The problem of "europe" is something that has simmered away in "english" politics for decades. Im not sure what you are trying to imply here , but if i read your incoherent rambling correct , you appear to be suggesting brexit was nothing more than a diversion away from tory austerity.

Without even touching on the fact the very reason we had "tory austerity" , wether you agree with it or not , was as a result of labours profligacy when in power , generations indebted for labours wastefullness and PFI debt etc.

So no europe wasnt just some spontaneous diversion that appeared out of no where. Its something that simmered along for decades  , causing the tories to fight among each other like rats in a sack , while labour desperately tried to ignore  the views of their heartlands in places like northern england over the european issue , as ukip gradually more and more ate into their vote .

You didnt try and turn the voters minds towards problems at home.........what you did was try and ignore their views over something that obviously concerned them as it was out of your comfort zone of bleating about the nhs and helping the poor.

....and we had the predictable result of labour taking a fckin hammering over it.

Answer 2 So your a Scotsman damed to support a party that in its day to day business is just as left of centre as me. Ho,ho, frigging Ho. Your no where near a fraud then?

Wait what?

The SNP are now a left of centre party? Thats despite the fact you labour mob have spent my entire lifetime moaning about them being the tartan tories?

Seems to me the snp are what anyone wants them to be however the argument flows!

I told you many a time , i vote snp for scot indy. In an indy scotland , i wont necessarily vote snp , i will vote for whichever party suits my politics.

Answer 3 What's correct is , all MPs and private citizens were and still are at liberty to question the implementation of Brexit . That's fact

Course they were! Who has said they couldnt?

As long as the referendum result was implemented , they could question away till their hearts were content.

Answer4 Now we are getting there , Much as you like the idea of Our democracy getting a kicking . Starmers, didn't .Corbyns Labour policy did. I think it's our democracy you aim at.

I , and many of us on this forum , championed the idea of democracy and its implementation , while folk like you didnt , as you cant take it when democracy works against you.

Sometimes you have to accept it when you lose old son!

Answer 5 it's obvious why your suspect, look at the previous answers.

I think anyone who doesnt blindly follow your view or politics is suspect in your book.

Answer 6 persuaded ,Thomas. More over egging on your part.

So thomas / fleet street / nasty tories / snp etc etc dont have powers of mind control over the easily fooled voter , we are all just very good at persuading?

Listen to yourself  , and your absolute contempt for those around you.

Answer7 I'm not as tired as I was this morning.  The Labour I would support is the one You  fraudulently give succour  to with your vote ,Minus , the Nationalist label .

Minus the nationalist label?

You are all over the place yet again. Do you remember what you wrote only a few posts ago?

Labour are a nationalist party , british nationalist , as we agreed , and you yourself are a nationalist as you announced earlier . Nationalist labels arent a problem for you at all , just nationalist labels thet arent your nationalism.

The only independence I want is independence of having to accept Tory rule
as inevitable.

See i love this sort of patronising drivel about wanting to be free from tory rule from you labour wallopers. Thats what scottish independence does , makes scotland free from tory rule  forever. Labour told us they didnt want that , and that they would rather scotland is ruled by the english tories than independent.

Further , not only did you do the tories dirty work for them in 2014 and paid the price dearly , you feckin go into coaltion with them at council level in scotland to keep the snp out.

Thats how much labour hate tory rule . 

Brexit is happening . It's accepted . Only if you think our democracy is not democracy , is your argument valid . Make your mind up . Just say it I won't be upset. Hard brexit was always intended by the dedicated .
You like to lump me as the incarnation of Labour. On this issue I'm much clearer .I don't want Brexit. I don't want a deal. because there isn't a deal that doesn't betray the nation.  I accepted we are going to have to deal with Brexit hard as it will be to deal with hard brexit. A perfectly honest approach to a possible national mistake. It happens in democratic decision making sometimes. One thing that won't go away is we all know who to blame  if it turns out bad, it won't be the people  who opposed it. Or tried to say it should never be questioned.

Im not a grammar nazi by any stretch of the imagination , far from it , but you really must try and sort your posts out into something resembling coherent.

I have read this paragraph of yours now a few times and i still cant make any sense of what you are rambling on about.

Stay off the weed mate.

[Good old]

I have addressed the Nationalist bit elsewhere  we are all nationalists . So you being one is only a problem when your ideas for our country oppose mine.
In our democracy ,democratic decisions do not preclude the right of every citizen the right to continue to voice opposition to the product of that decision. If you don't understand that , then your understanding is wrong.

You strike as one of those 'angry' socialists. You keep telling me that my 'understanding' is wrong, and clearly, I'm a 'problem', even though I haven't actually given you any views yet. Did you notice that? No. Probably not.

This is like a groundhog day. Just like many other 'socialists' I've been stupid enough to try and engage with on this (and previous incarnations) websites over the years. What it usually boils down to is that people (eg non labour supporting liberal/left) are basically idiots who need to be told what to think and say. I think thats why you lost the the working class vote - people got tired of conversations like this, where one person can barely conceal their contempt for the other - usually based on things they assume

That's one thing I can't really be accused of. If I have 'contempt', if I think someone is a tosser, wanker, c888t, whatever, then I generally say so

Now, now ,Mister Dawg, If we don't agree on vital issues that has to be problem of sorts. You obviously haven't noticed or ignored the fact that I have received close on the full put down armoury Of Thomas, and others on here .
I am actually a slightly left of centre , individual that detests the idea of Brexit, and above all fully supports our parliamentary democracy ,as practiced within the bounds of what is accepted by law and precedent.   You would think that makes me the No enemy of the state , because I don't look like falling line with the brexit motivated Tory movement.
So don't feel to hard done by its very much a two way street .