British negotiator gives EU two-week deadline to drop ‘ideological’ stance

[Thomas]

I should know better and be a little more accurate when debating with you, I'll come back to you on this tomorrow but a family zoom calls, with some calling in from Dunblane.

no worries gerry , all the best.

[GerryT]

Sorry you arent making any sense here, the GFA mentions nothing about the reasons behind why the voters might want a referendum on reunification , but simply that the sos has to make that call based on vague evidence in his opinion.



You are also talking rubbish in my opinion about this being a green orange issue , when one of the biggest growing gropus in northern irish politics is the "other" group , who are extremely pro european and less wedded to the old divide.



So no it doesnt have to be about brexit , but brexit may very well be the catalyst , and you still dont acknowledge the real fear the uk government has in letting northern ireland have the best of both worlds by remaining in both the eu and uk at the same time. This will provide us in scotland with massive "grievance " ammunition .



Have it your own way though gerry , so far with respect you have bee nwrong on practicaly every count on brexit , and seem to regards the GFA , and ireland in general as being high on the uk publics priority list when it doesnt even figure.

I should know better and be a little more accurate when debating with you, I'll come back to you on this tomorrow but a family zoom calls, with some calling in from Dunblane.

[Thomas]

It doesn't, but that won't stop them from trying. I hope it has the opposite effect.

Ah trying to use the scottish indy vote while not gaining any discernable political advantage sounds just like the anglo left. ::

[Borg Refinery]

Im not sure how that works dynamis in real ife though if true.

It doesn't, but that won't stop them from trying. I hope it has the opposite effect.



Anyway, whatever.  8-)

[Thomas]

Excellent point, I hadn't really considered that at all tbh but I'm certain you're right.



Just like many English remainers now only pretend to support Scot indy to overturn the Brexit result, when they were anti-Indy in 2014 etc, and they want to manipulate the SNP & their voters.

Im not sure how that works dynamis in real ife though if true.



Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain in 2016 , and it still wasnt enough to overturn englands pro brexit vote. So that was a non starter.



...and we already saw this manipulate the snp pro european vote in action over the last few general elections when not one english pro european party said they would officially get into bed with the snp over brexit as they knew the price of governance with the snp at westminster would be a scot indy ref , and the undying hatred of the english public for engaging with enemies of the state.



So im not sure how the anglo left manipulated the snp or their followers .I would say its the other way around , big time.



The SNP played the main enlgish left parties like a fiddle , and annihilated labour in scotland , and took the liberals leader right out the picture. The SNP killed the english lefts chances of beating the tories at westminster  ( well what little chance they had), and scotland in general is getting pissed off being used ( as in the days of the feeble fifty) of electoral fodder for english based westminster parties.



I bet labour and the wider english left are crying into their spilt milk every night over the snp and wishing they could count on 40/50 scottish seats just like the bad old days. :roll:  :twisted:

[Borg Refinery]

I find it funny when politicians say they may grant NI a vote on reunification when it's nothing to do with them, the people of NI will decide in their own good time. The only and I mean only reason they suggest that is to solve the border issue with the EU, like normal the UK cares nothing for what's in the best interest of the people of NI. I could say the same for England with Scotland/Wales

Excellent point, I hadn't really considered that at all tbh but I'm certain you're right.



Just like many English remainers now only pretend to support Scot indy to overturn the Brexit result, when they were anti-Indy in 2014 etc, and they want to manipulate the SNP & their voters.

[Thomas]

Your right, it is the SOS of NI that makes the call. And yes it's on loose wording, but my understanding it's about the belief that there are a majority in NI that want NI to reunify with SI, it has not about leaving the UK or joining the EU, but re-unification. Taken from the institute of govt:



 The Constitution Unit suggests that a consistent majority in opinion polls, a Catholic majority in a census, a nationalist majority in the Northern Ireland Assembly, or a vote by a majority in the Assembly could all be considered evidence of majority support for a united Ireland. However, the Secretary of State must ultimately decide whether the condition has been met.



So Johnson asking the sos to do him a big favour and dig the UK out of the very big hole it's in, just doesn't cut the mustard.

Sorry you arent making any sense here, the GFA mentions nothing about the reasons behind why the voters might want a referendum on reunification , but simply that the sos has to make that call based on vague evidence in his opinion.



You are also talking rubbish in my opinion about this being a green orange issue , when one of the biggest growing gropus in northern irish politics is the "other" group , who are extremely pro european and less wedded to the old divide.



So no it doesnt have to be about brexit , but brexit may very well be the catalyst , and you still dont acknowledge the real fear the uk government has in letting northern ireland have the best of both worlds by remaining in both the eu and uk at the same time. This will provide us in scotland with massive "grievance " ammunition .



Have it your own way though gerry , so far with respect you have bee nwrong on practicaly every count on brexit , and seem to regards the GFA , and ireland in general as being high on the uk publics priority list when it doesnt even figure.

[GerryT]

Not quite gerry. Yer man conor and i have discussed this many a time , i think you will find under the GFA , the english S.O S for northern ireland is that man who decides a border poll based on some vague view of a majority wanting out the uk. If brexit hasnt provided that ( i have supplied various polling evidence over northern irish voters in the majority wanting out the uk to remain in the eu ) then i dont know what does.

Your right, it is the SOS of NI that makes the call. And yes it's on loose wording, but my understanding it's about the belief that there are a majority in NI that want NI to reunify with SI, it has not about leaving the UK or joining the EU, but re-unification. Taken from the institute of govt:



 The Constitution Unit suggests that a consistent majority in opinion polls, a Catholic majority in a census, a nationalist majority in the Northern Ireland Assembly, or a vote by a majority in the Assembly could all be considered evidence of majority support for a united Ireland. However, the Secretary of State must ultimately decide whether the condition has been met.



So Johnson asking the sos to do him a big favour and dig the UK out of the very big hole it's in, just doesn't cut the mustard.

[Thomas]

I find it funny when politicians say they may grant NI a vote on reunification when it's nothing to do with them, the people of NI will decide in their own good time.

Not quite gerry. Yer man conor and i have discussed this many a time , i think you will find under the GFA , the english S.O S for northern ireland is that man who decides a border poll based on some vague view of a majority wanting out the uk. If brexit hasnt provided that ( i have supplied various polling evidence over northern irish voters in the majority wanting out the uk to remain in the eu ) then i dont know what does.

[GerryT]

... Additionally, I think Thomas's per capita figures surely have to be the last nail in the coffin for any argument that NI ought to remain in the 'yookay'.

The big issue in NI is it finds itself in a situation today split with two camps of divided people, neither willing to concede to the other. The nationalist community is growing in numbers and will soon overtake unionists, the changes to the rigged elections and also subtle shifts in the way of life will possibly give a nationalist majority. But still it's split, best explained in this:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/job-reform-was-key-to-ending-inequality-in-ni-1.1140623">https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/job- ... -1.1140623">https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/job-reform-was-key-to-ending-inequality-in-ni-1.1140623



Leaving the UK for reunification in the next few years just flips the situation but doesn't resolve anything, its best the people of NI sort themselves out, with time they will find common ground and hopefully the youth will put the past behind them. At that point they will decide what direction they will take.



I find it funny when politicians say they may grant NI a vote on reunification when it's nothing to do with them, the people of NI will decide in their own good time. The only and I mean only reason they suggest that is to solve the border issue with the EU, like normal the UK cares nothing for what's in the best interest of the people of NI. I could say the same for England with Scotland/Wales

[Borg Refinery]

Good point about multinats avoiding tax.



I noticed Sinn Fein did well over there recently. Do you think things are shifting politically?



Will the tax problem be sorted out or is it looking like it's there to stay? IIRC strict measures started to take effect in Irl in 2016.

[Thomas]

If NI plays it's cards right, it can have one foot in the UK and one in the EU. IF that can be kept stable it will draw so much FDI, it really could be the making of the area over the next 20 years, i'm sure given time NI will just leave the UK & may reunite, a lot of work before that day comes, but it's on the horizon.

I dont think the uk will exist long enough for the 6 counties to have a foot in either camp , but we will see.If it does , all well and good for my political position  , as northern ireland getting the best of both worlds undermines the yookay union even further.



At the moment , where you and i disagree is over the importance of N.I in the whole brexit debate.



As i told you before , the anglo british nationalists in charge are quite happy to throw norhtern ireland under a bus to get brexit , while you believe northern ireland is some sort of achilles heel westminster have to take note of.



24th may , and the clock is ticking away , and it looks like heading no deal by the end of the year. If anything , attitudes seem to be hardening.

[GerryT]

Stevlin as most people know , talks cac at the best of times. I never tire of reminding people this is the guy who lectures folk on politics and economics but didnt know northern ireland was a part of the uk. Im not joking.



Im interested in some of the things irish economist David macWilliams says. Talking about the european union and irelands memebrship of it compared to the uk union and for example northern irelands part of it and comparing them is striking , and shows which is the better fairer and more proseperous union.



Over the past three decades or so , it is striking how much richer the republic has become compared to the uk in general , and northern ireland in particular.



While the republics GDP per capita is $75 192 , northern irelands is $26 976.



Commercially the "british " union has been a feckin disaster for northern ireland.

David is good he has a way of looking at things that other commentators fail to see. But our GDP per Capita is inflated due to the high number of multinationals that pay relatively small amounts of tax. But even with those companies removed Irl would still have a GDP/capita over twice that of NI.



When I was growing up travelling to NI was like seeing a much wealthier area, the roads were great, cars much better and lots of activity and people seemed to be spending so much more. All of that has reversed now. Shame as it is a beautiful part of the Island, some fabulous coast lines and beautiful villages.

If NI plays it's cards right, it can have one foot in the UK and one in the EU. IF that can be kept stable it will draw so much FDI, it really could be the making of the area over the next 20 years, i'm sure given time NI will just leave the UK & may reunite, a lot of work before that day comes, but it's on the horizon.

The way Johnson and his merry band of idiots are conducting Brexit this must also be a great thing for Scotland. as you have said being a net contributor to the overloards and having the natural resourses (nearly all of UK fishing/oil) and a cost line ripe for wind and other renewable energy production there's a bright future there. Let's face it if Irl could do it with only sheep and cows as a resource and starting from such a poor position, Scotland would do very well.

[Borg Refinery]

"but since we became a nett contributor, over the coming decades the EU will not only get that back but will have helped what was a third world country turn itself around to be a well developed and contributing member country of the EU"



Well that reminds me of the things me & Thomas were discussing in other threads. Irl should never have been a 3rd world anything, it should always have been rich & prosperous, much like Scotland really, much like countless other countries around the world who had their histories subverted by a bunch of power hungry tyrants, or imperial overlords.



This modern EU thing is just the default way things should've been in Irl. The fact that you lot have to play catch-up at all is a disgrace, and a reflection on years of colonial cripe..



Additionally, I think Thomas's per capita figures surely have to be the last nail in the coffin for any argument that NI ought to remain in the 'yookay'.

[Thomas]

Thanks but for all the miss informed dribble Stevlin posts there is one piece of info that is correct. Irl has done very well out of the EU. nett we are up about 40b, but since we became a nett contributor, over the coming decades the EU will not only get that back but will have helped what was a third world country turn itself around to be a well developed and contributing member country of the EU. Thus with time making the EU as a unit stronger and as even more less developed members benefit from EU development programmes the EU gets better for everyone.



The irony of this is the smaller member countries of the UK union, namely wales and NI and to some extent Scotland have not fared as well as England has. From the outside the EU is a far better union to be a member of than the UK. I think Stevlins way of looking at things is the smaller states should be paying England for the generosity of being a member of the UK.

Stevlin as most people know , talks cac at the best of times. I never tire of reminding people this is the guy who lectures folk on politics and economics but didnt know northern ireland was a part of the uk. Im not joking.



Im interested in some of the things irish economist David macWilliams says. Talking about the european union and irelands memebrship of it compared to the uk union and for example northern irelands part of it and comparing them is striking , and shows which is the better fairer and more proseperous union.



Over the past three decades or so , it is striking how much richer the republic has become compared to the uk in general , and northern ireland in particular.



While the republics GDP per capita is $75 192 , northern irelands is $26 976.



Commercially the "british " union has been a feckin disaster for northern ireland.