Oh no Joe is busy call back later

[johnofgwent]

I think Remainers understate our importance and most Brexiters (clearly not you) overstate our importance.

I'll take that as a compliment !


I think it will be interesting,but I also think it will be worth it.


I also believe our Standard And Poor's rating will outlive that of the Eurozone but that belief comes from my O level economics that taught me a currency can only work if there is a single political, economic and tax policy applied across the area and that just isn't the case. But these are old arguments.


Right now, I think the UK has more issues over containers and cargo. There is a solution to that, but it will require adopting the methods of the channel Islands at Ro-Ro and probably give the military something to do at container ports...

[Borg Refinery]

That's where the difference is, a leavers view is we are not leaving, we are re-engaging with the rest of the world which is 84% not 16%.

Yeah, but that ignores future trade deals with 3rd nations and the EU, the protections they offer us and so on.

But don't worry, the EU does seem to be imploding as you pray for daily. And I'm sure the world will be much safer and freer for it (....)

I'm not remotely convinced that is the case.

Yeh as I clarified in a later post, 'collapse' was a hasty judgement and not correct.

But we are quite central to global trade, at the moment anyway, and as I said, if bad things happen to us, given how intrinsic London is to global trade - there is no doubt it will have ripple effects across the global economy. They might not be so severe but I don't think anyone really knows the answer here.

I think Remainers understate our importance and most Brexiters (clearly not you) overstate our importance. Not sure about the 2000 Bush/Gore meme thing about the US becoming a colony, but it's certainly being re spread around the interwebs again, and propogated as'fact' by those off their rocker tho it's some fat baloney and crap.

Oh well.

[johnofgwent]

I'm fairly sure there is some constitutional law going back years stating that the US will return to being a colony of the U.K. if they fail to form an democratically elected government. Didn't the 2000 election come within days of theoretically triggering this law due to the 'Tangs' or what ever they were called in Florida? GWB and Al Gore I believe.

I admit i would love to think so (it's one way to get google to pay its taxes) but sadly I suspect this is about as real as rocking horse poo
The real answer was something I looked up years ago and wished i had not because i had to shell out for almost a gallon of beer over it.
One of those "The White House Has Fallen To Terrorists" B Movies with the acting quality of Plan 9 from Outer Space had a strike on "Marine One" (or whatever the hell the chopper is called) combined with an explosion at an embassy that took down the Vice President. And the Secret Service rocked up and took the Speaker of the House into the bunker, telling them (hell, it was Morgan Freeman...) that as Speaker, with the President and the Vice President dead, under the constitution, they were now "Acting" President imbued with the authority of office.
Well THATS a load of balls I stated. And I foolishly accepted the challenge that if it were indeed the case I would be buying the round.....
I THINK the swine had this in some pub quiz or other, because he was awful fast in pulling out his phone and showing me the whitehouse.gov page where some nice person had actua,lly written this down and referred back to the leglslature that empowers it. The page seemed awfully insistent this protocol applied at any point where there was no president or vice president in office and would remain so empowered until a new president was sworn in to office.....
So, who's the speaker and what party elected them ? I've no bloody idea

[Barry]

What could cause economies around the world to collapse? Covid-19 and political turmoil in the US if Trump becomes an unelected dictator.

Covid-19 would never collapse economies. It is the governments around the world reactions to it which will collapse economies.
I bet Biden is hoping it's all going down in numbers by Jan 20th or he'll be doing his best to collapse the USA economy. Being a liberal, I bet he can't wait to start spending other people's hard earned cash.

[johnofgwent]

They need us and we need them - without our trade they would collapse currently, and vice versa.

I'm not remotely convinced that is the case.
The Americans certainly do not "need" us. Their only interest in the UK was as a stepping stone to infiltrate the EU.  Suez, and the abandonment of promises to arm the UK after those promises had achieved the desired result of denuding us of our independent deterrent (yes, I know they were bloody useless, but to see what they were really for on the international stage, consider the way America treats North Korea who have nuclear capability and Iran who do not) 

The Chinese might have needed us thirty years ago, today they have no such dependency.

[Nick]

My point about us leaving the EU 'bloc', was that we are alone and isolated outside the EU and vulnerable

That's where the difference is, a leavers view is we are not leaving, we are re-engaging with the rest of the world which is 84% not 16%. 

[Borg Refinery]

If you're not referring to the EU trading with the US who are you referencing?

Read the whole quote -

"Just because you hate the USA it doesn't mean we should bow down to our new Chinese and Russian overlords like some tv personality paid to do random adverts in Chinese, we need balance and harmony, which is ironically perfectly in line with Chinese thinking if you know anything about their culture.

They need us and we need them - without our trade they would collapse currently, and vice versa. But ideally both our blocs will become seof sufficient to the extent that we don't need anyone"

I'm referring to Chinese trade with 'the west'. I thought this was fairly clear..

The EU only represented 16% of world trade before the U.K. left, that's going to be smaller now. I'm fairly sure the US. Can survive without any EU products, same as the U.K. they can get them elsewhere.

You are completely obsessed with Brexit and what we do.

Yes most countries could 'survive' without either us, China, the USA or the EU, but in the case of any of the big blocs they would inevitably suffer for losing trade with a fellow big bloc.

My point about us leaving the EU 'bloc', was that we are alone and isolated outside the EU and vulnerable, and take an ex WTO head's word for it, not mine -

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6LVNpfES8k

As he says, it is about 'clout'. The world is dog eat dog where trade is concerned, bigger blocs force smaller countries into conceding and opening up their markets, while bigger ones protect theirs from outsiders. The Chinese are masters of doing this of course, the US not so much these days since the rise of China ...

[Nick]

What the flying duck are you talking about? That isn't even close to what I said.

If you're not referring to the EU trading with the US who are you referencing?

The EU only represented 16% of world trade before the U.K. left, that's going to be smaller now. I'm fairly sure the US. Can survive without any EU products, same as the U.K. they can get them elsewhere.

[Nick]

Trump becomes an unelected dictator.

I'm fairly sure there is some constitutional law going back years stating that the US will return to being a colony of the U.K. if they fail to form an democratically elected government. Didn't the 2000 election come within days of theoretically triggering this law due to the 'Tangs' or what ever they were called in Florida? GWB and Al Gore I believe.

[Borg Refinery]

The biggest economy in the world would collapse but the EU would be ok without a deal.

What the flying duck are you talking about? That isn't even close to what I said.

Someone on here is telling lies then as you can't have both.

Yes someone sure is.

Let me make it simple, without China, the EU and American economies and our economy also would suffer immensely. Maybe not collapse like I said, but it will take a really large hit.

Are you disputing this?

[HDQQ]

The biggest economy in the world would collapse but the EU would be ok without a deal.
Someone on here is telling lies then as you can%u2019t have both.

Yes, neither the US or EU economies would collapse without a deal. Would any economies anywhere collapse without a trade deal with the UK? Brexit probably won't even cause our own economy to actually collapse, BUT . . . it'll just make it somewhat worse than it would have been if we'd stayed in the EU. What could cause economies around the world to collapse? Covid-19 and political turmoil in the US if Trump becomes an unelected dictator.

[Nick]

They need us and we need them - without our trade they would collapse currently, and vice versa.

The biggest economy in the world would collapse but the EU would be ok without a deal.
Someone on here is telling lies then as you can't have both.

[Borg Refinery]

 ..It's a farmageddon.

[Sheepy]

I have Google too!
Well, you did say:as if it is something to be proud of, when their form of Communism is as corrupt as any.
Perhaps in your mind.
I'd rather like a backdown from globalism. Countries being as self supporting as they can, working hard for their own benefit.I don't think you are a wolf, but you're not a mutton fan, are you?

Take it from me, there has been a strange influx of middle class London Liberal escapees in Hastings.

[Borg Refinery]

I have Google too!

So you endorse a bipolar world.?..   

Well, you did say:as if it is something to be proud of, when their form of Communism is as corrupt as any.

Proud? Not at all. My belief system is really more like this -

It's clear that the 'one size fits all' model of forcing [neoliberal] capitalist 'democracy' on others isn't going to work. Let those who want such a system have it, and let others try things their own way.

My ideology isn't capitalism or libertarianism, it's basically confederalism.

Just give people what they want - let other kinds of societies exist, quite similar to what libertarians purport to believe.

I really think that's the only way of solving most of humanity's problems, simply forcing capitalism, or communism, fascism or agrarianism, or anarchy is never going to work out well.

Every country should have a highly federated mix of systems, where the majority approve of their local system by consensus. Heck, let individual towns have their own little system of doing things if they want.

Such a system will be accepting of capitalist societies, theological Christian collectives (my preference - not to be forced on anyone else though) and all other kinds, provided they are non-expansionist. The non-expansionism and non-forced conversion issue is the key factor here.

There is no other way, really. But that contradicts most ideologies because they are expansionist.

"Perhaps in your mind."

Not sure how a balanced world order is communism. Demanding that one superpower be dominant is closer to communist type thinking.

Competition is actually very Capitalist. I don't like China or Russia or the USA's systems but that's ok. Ideally, those who want to live under that can, others can have seperate societies.

"I'd rather like a backdown from globalism. Countries being as self supporting as they can, working hard for their own benefit."

In principle I agree, but it's how you get there that matters, which is where we differ I guess.

I don't think you are a wolf, but you're not a mutton fan, are you?

Mutton's great, just not sure why some mutton thinks everyone's come from planet garibaldicus zeta to beam it up into ufo's. Oh well.