And now we need to take a leaf out of the Germans book and confront our past

[Sheepy]

I ain't ashamed of him or his generation.

This won't go down well at spite central.
Can't you just hate yourself, that would be OK.

[DeppityDawg]

Yeah it was my old man,palestine which was a Turkish possession ceded to GB by the league of nations post WW1 iirc and was a poisoned chalice my old man did not go on and on about his service much I learnt from his diaries.

I do know that he was shot at by both sides and from his diaries I know he killed in these attacks I do know he lost mates killed by the Arabs and dumped down a well,the RAF had small forts and RR armoured cars,he served in Iraq or as it was called then mesopatamia or as he called it messpot,India,various parts of Africa,Egypt and was on a troopship to Singapore when it fell so he was luckier than the poor sods there.


Having said all that he loved the RAF and would've stayed in but my old Ma wouldn't wear it,he joined up in the depression on two bob a day the RAF flying biplanes by the time he left they were flying jets.

Like I say most of what I know is from his diaries but whatever he did it was his job,he wasn't a violent bloke but just did what he had to do.

I ain't ashamed of him or his generation.

And there's no reason why you should, mate, we all get that. Sadly, conflict is rarely black and white. I know we've argued at length about Alexander Blackman, but he did what he felt was the right thing at the time, for reasons that modern woke students, luckily for them, can never understand. Your old man could easily have been in the same position, and if its a question of avoiding your mates violated bodies ending up down a well, few people could say they would always know what the "right" thing even is. Sometimes its just about surviving the day

I guess the problem today is that the closer we are in real time to the events, the harder they are to defend against an angry public. And while those involved are often still alive to pursue, those (like your favourite politician) who made the policy that put them there go untouched. Lets not pretend some elements of the left haven't found that a fashionable pastime either.

It seems easy nowadays to start thinking that the whole history of the Empire was a series of Amritasars. If anything, shes right that acknowledging the bad as well as the good, might help youngsters to understand that the vast majority (like your dad on 2 bob a day) were there because easy options existed only for the very few back then

[patman post]

Can anyone really be blamed for believing they're doing the right thing and/or merely following orders? 

Whatever the answer to that, what parts of their antecedents' past activities can/should present-day descendants be proud of, condemn, or merely recognise were of their time and are of no consequence today...?

[cromwell]

Tbf, is she entirely wrong?[highlight] I think you said you had relatives who served in Palestine and thats not exactly a.pretty story. My experience was not all wine and roses either, and I don't know anyone who served in my time who tries to pretend otherwise.[/highlight] If what she is saying is that we need to teach the good and the bad, fair enough. My only concern is that would be politicised the other way, like most things these days. It seems almost impossible to have an honest debate about many things anymore, so I doubt this would be any different. Like Thomas says, tearing down statues won't change anything, and I think even she has said that herself

I guess in the end, we are all "of our time", with the culture and predominant values that went with it. 1850 was not 2020. I've no objection to her suggestion, but you know what will happen. The young of today (and let's face it,.they are the woke generation) will look at the past and judge it in complete safety and with the benefit of hindsight by today's standards.

Yeah it was my old man,palestine which was a Turkish possession ceded to GB by the league of nations post WW1 iirc and was a poisoned chalice my old man did not go on and on about his service much I learnt from his diaries.

I do know that he was shot at by both sides and from his diaries I know he killed in these attacks I do know he lost mates killed by the Arabs and dumped down a well,the RAF had small forts and RR armoured cars,he served in Iraq or as it was called then mesopatamia or as he called it messpot,India,various parts of Africa,Egypt and was on a troopship to Singapore when it fell so he was luckier than the poor sods there.


Having said all that he loved the RAF and would've stayed in but my old Ma wouldn't wear it,he joined up in the depression on two bob a day the RAF flying biplanes by the time he left they were flying jets.

Like I say most of what I know is from his diaries but whatever he did it was his job,he wasn't a violent bloke but just did what he had to do.

I ain't ashamed of him or his generation.

[Borchester]

It doesn't take a.genius to see their enemy is straight white men.

Trump was their last target, but he's gone now  The idea that the Royal Family is a "white supremacist" institution has been in the news numerous times in the last week or two. Never thought I'd hear that 20 years ago.

Just the usual bollocks from the girlies and the race relations industry. I doubt that it will bother Betty Windsor or the rest of the firm. They have been getting this sort of thing since the editor of the Anglo Saxon Chronicles started bitching about the Domesday Book in 1185 and they have survived.

I reckon that the real losers are going to be the media which seem to be losing touch with its subscribers
   

[DeppityDawg]

Didn't we have a thread about "critical race theory" a while back when it was kind of suggested this was where we were heading? There's an ever growing alliance of race theorists, feminists and transgender rights brigade aligning around "intersectionality", where basically attempts to portray Western Society as being an evil white supremacist, oppressive patriarchy (feel free to add your own pejoritives) are now the predominant discourse. It doesn't take a.genius to see their enemy is straight white men.

Trump was their last target, but he's gone now  The idea that the Royal Family is a "white supremacist" institution has been in the news numerous times in the last week or two. Never thought I'd hear that 20 years ago.

[Sheepy]

The problem seems to be that Jenni Murray hasn't learned much about the effect of history lessons upon the British.

Like most of my generation I was taught the horrors of the slave trade, Queen Vick sending the troops to eat all Ireland's spuds, Indian freedom fighters being blown out of the mouths of cannon and all the rest of the conventional catalogue of horror.

It sounded quite fun actually, but there was a limit to the amount of guilt we could absorb so most of it just washed over us. I suspect that Ms Murray knows this, and that pretty soon her insistence and that of her circle on pissing on the flag will ultimately create such a reaction from the average Briton that a crowd funding campaign to raise a statue to David Lisle in every public place in the UK cannot help but be successful.

But our Jenni does not give a crap. She has gotten her couple of lines in the media and that is all that counts.   

True but the constant guilt trip is only aimed at you for the minute, it has been moving up the chain of command for a while now, unless of course your family were part of the elite who ran the British Empire. They just want your backing to use history for spite. Which is a completely different situation for the Germans and the Nazis, they are not comparable in that sense.
Although of course they are trying make it so, with a growing number of believers.

[Borchester]

The problem seems to be that Jenni Murray hasn't learned much about the effect of history lessons upon the British.

Like most of my generation I was taught the horrors of the slave trade, Queen Vick sending the troops to eat all Ireland's spuds, Indian freedom fighters being blown out of the mouths of cannon and all the rest of the conventional catalogue of horror.

It sounded quite fun actually, but there was a limit to the amount of guilt we could absorb so most of it just washed over us. I suspect that Ms Murray knows this, and that pretty soon her insistence and that of her circle on pissing on the flag will ultimately create such a reaction from the average Briton that a crowd funding campaign to raise a statue to David Lisle in every public place in the UK cannot help but be successful.

But our Jenni does not give a crap. She has gotten her couple of lines in the media and that is all that counts.   

[DeppityDawg]

like they did with the nazis,dunno what DD will make of this but I suspect Thomas might agree with her

Really though,we never knew having an empire had its downsides?
Just like voting Brexit we didn't know what we were doing 
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9360195/Dame-Jenni-Murray-calls-Britain-confront-colonial-history-way-Germany-Nazis.html

Tbf, is she entirely wrong? I think you said you had relatives who served in Palestine and thats not exactly a.pretty story. My experience was not all wine and roses either, and I don't know anyone who served in my time who tries to pretend otherwise. If what she is saying is that we need to teach the good and the bad, fair enough. My only concern is that would be politicised the other way, like most things these days. It seems almost impossible to have an honest debate about many things anymore, so I doubt this would be any different. Like Thomas says, tearing down statues won't change anything, and I think even she has said that herself

I guess in the end, we are all "of our time", with the culture and predominant values that went with it. 1850 was not 2020. I've no objection to her suggestion, but you know what will happen. The young of today (and let's face it,.they are the woke generation) will look at the past and judge it in complete safety and with the benefit of hindsight by today's standards.

[Thomas]

like they did with the nazis,dunno what DD will make of this but I suspect Thomas might agree with her

Really though,we never knew having an empire had its downsides?
Just like voting Brexit we didn't know what we were doing 
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9360195/Dame-Jenni-Murray-calls-Britain-confront-colonial-history-way-Germany-Nazis.html

No i dont agree with her cromwell.

I have said many a time what actually is the point in pulling down statues of people from centuries ago and apologising for events centuries ago?

The germans lost the war in 1945 , their country was occupied for decades , and they had it drummed into them by the occupiers , wether yanks british french or russians , of the evil the nazi regime had done.

That never happened to the british , and probably the closest the british came to what the nazis did was ireland in the mid nineteenth century , bengal or possibly the boer concentration camps , a century and more ago.

Are great great grandchidren responsible for the sins of their ancestors? Are ordinary people and soldiers resonsible for the sins of their superiors and ruling elite?

History is there , warts and all to be learned from , good and bad. Deleting it or apologising for the bits you now find uncomfortable is to my mind crazy.

Historical revision is also a bugbear of mine , like this cac john of gwent posted...

https://pol-tics.com/index.php?topic=3083.msg59552#msg59552

https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofWales/The-English-conquest-of-Wales/

England didnt conquer wales the same as england didnt invade and conquer ireland in the 12th century.Calling henry first an english king is like calling ursula von der leyen prime minister of england.

Trying to erase or apologise for uncomfortable bits of history is nothing new......i think i once told you of glasgow labours past inglorious record of trying and failing to do exactly that on many occassions over scottish history.

You should read up on glasgow labours attempts to hide the remains of the radicals from the 1820 uprising in scotland in sighthill cemetary in glasgow , until historians peter beresford ellis and seamus mac a ghobhainn proved beyond doubt where their remains were interred.

Nothing new cromwell , as they say the victors like to re write history in their favour , and it certainly seems to be true of the modern woke liberal elite and their attempts to "win " and re write or erase bits of history they find uncomfortable , and where they cant , apologise for it.

I apologise for my countrymen slave raiding into england in 1138 , the terrible atrocites carried out , the rape of many good english lassies , and the theft and robbery .

Scots slave-raiding and Anglo-Norman alarm

The actions of the army that invaded England in early 1138 shocked the English chroniclers,[12] Richard of Hexham[11] records

    "an execrable army, more atrocious than the pagans, neither fearing God nor regarding man, spread desolation over the whole province and slaughtered everywhere people of either sex, of every age and rank, destroying, pillaging and burning towns, churches and houses".

Monastic chroniclers often deplore depredations made by foreign armies and sometimes even those of their own rulers[13] but some Scots forces were going beyond normal Norman 'harrying' by systematically carrying off women and children as slaves.[14] In the contemporary Celtic world this was regarded as a useful source of revenue, like (and not significantly more reprehensible than) cattle-raiding.[15]

    "Then (horrible to relate) they carried off, like so much booty, the noble matrons and chaste virgins, together with other women. These naked, fettered, herded together; by whips and thongs they drove before them, goading them with their spears and other weapons. This took place in other wars, but in this to a far greater extent."[11]

The practicalities of this would support the chroniclers' tales of sexual abuse of the slaves and casual slaughter of unsalable encumbrances:

    "For the sick on their couches, women pregnant and in childbed, infants in the womb, innocents at the breast, or on the mother's knee, with the mothers themselves, decrepit old men and worn-out old women, and persons debilitated from whatever cause, wherever they met with them, they put to the edge of the sword, and transfixed with their spears; and by how much more horrible a death they could dispatch them, so much the more did they rejoice."[11]

[Nick]

Time to learn!

Better be quick or there won't be anything left to learn from, the limp wristed liberals will have torn it all down.

[Sheepy]

Oh well it wont be the first time I've been called a nazi and since i think this is another daft bat like the curfew woman I'm definitely a mysoginist too

I guess they get off on thinking they can say what they like and considering that must be ultimate insult for every Briton who gave up their lives so she could say it, punishment will have to be considered.

[cromwell]

A bit like Covid you know it is coming because of the slow drip,drip,drip, but once upon you it will be convincing enough. We are all Nazis now unless you are woke and have repented and given over your soul.

Oh well it wont be the first time I've been called a nazi and since i think this is another daft bat like the curfew woman I'm definitely a mysoginist too

[Sheepy]

like they did with the nazis,dunno what DD will make of this but I suspect Thomas might agree with her

Really though,we never new having an empire had its downsides?
Just like voting Brexit we didn't know what we were doing 
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9360195/Dame-Jenni-Murray-calls-Britain-confront-colonial-history-way-Germany-Nazis.html

A bit like Covid you know it is coming because of the slow drip,drip,drip, but once upon you it will be convincing enough. We are all Nazis now unless you are woke and have repented and given over your soul.

[cromwell]

like they did with the nazis,dunno what DD will make of this but I suspect Thomas might agree with her

Really though,we never knew having an empire had its downsides?
Just like voting Brexit we didn't know what we were doing 
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9360195/Dame-Jenni-Murray-calls-Britain-confront-colonial-history-way-Germany-Nazis.html