Brexit "party" standing down

[Ciaphas]

Even the BBC have failed to find him guilty, so it's all very allegedly.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49878693">//https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49878693

All dragged up by a Labour, "Brexit  hostile" Mayor to try to discredit a man for matters from 5 years ago. The timing says everything, can't you see that, Ciaphas?

The BBC is staying neutral on the issue and has simply reported the perpetrators and governments assertions that nothing untoward occured.



I'm afraid self-assessment forms aren't sufficient to exonerate Mr Johnson.

[Barry]

There seems very little doubt they had a relationship and that she benefitted from it both politically and financially. The main issue now is the navigating of the various vested interests involved in order to get Mr Johnson in court.



I suspect that if Mr Johnson remains Prime Minister there will be a political whitewash.

Even the BBC have failed to find him guilty, so it's all very allegedly.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49878693">//https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49878693

All dragged up by a Labour, "Brexit  hostile" Mayor to try to discredit a man for matters from 5 years ago. The timing says everything, can't you see that, Ciaphas?

[Ciaphas]

I think there should be an "allegedly" or 2 in there somewhere, Ciaphas.

There seems very little doubt they had a relationship and that she benefitted from it both politically and financially. The main issue now is the navigating of the various vested interests involved in order to get Mr Johnson in court.



I suspect that if Mr Johnson remains Prime Minister there will be a political whitewash.

[Streetwalker]

How do you envisage getting rid of him?



If he is elected with a large majority of mostly loyal MPs, you can't get rid of him for 5 years - that's a lot of time for a lot of u turns.

There is no such thing as a loyal MP Javert . Having based his leadership on getting the job done and taking back control he will be gone within a year if he doesn't .

Even if he hangs on to the leadership his 'power' will be diminished with more tory infighting  and  a public that will be calling for his head .

[Nick]

I'd be fascinated to hear how you think Ireland was a socialist experiment. It would seem extraordinarily strange for a socialist experiment to create an economic model like Ireland's — a thoroughly capitalist, open, free market economy.  But as I've asked you before — was the Marshall Plan "socialist"?  It seems strange to me that a capitalist such as yourself does not differentiate handout from investment. The EU invests in its smaller/weaker member states because it helps to generate prosperity and co-operation across a wider geographic and economic area.



What would you prefer ? That Eastern Europe remains isolated in the economic shadow of Russia, or as members of the EU they can remain economically aligned to the West and develop as free economies within the single market — thus creating trade and service partners within a few hours flight from London?  This isn't socialism at all — it is capitalism.  In fact, bringing Eastern Europe into the single market, and further out of Russian dominance, is one of capitalism's greatest victories.



As for the last point — you can see the problem — you take Ireland's stance as a boast and brag, and you double down. Ireland isn't holding any glorified sword over the UK, it is simply refusing to accept illogical approaches to the border. Yes, someday there will be mutually beneficial agreement — but mutually beneficial does not necessarily mean a better deal than you had within the EU!

Firstly the Marshall Plan was to help a region recovering from years of war, thats different from the EU.



As for the EU investing, investment means you will get more back, how is Poland or Greece going to give back more than they have? Poland receives 10 Billion Euros a year, it will never be in a position to repay that let alone a premium on top. So no the EU is not investing it is destabilising countries and putting them in an a position where they cannot sustain them selves if the EU payments  were withdrawn. Trapping them in a system they may deside to get out of in the future.



Ireland is now just about paying a few quid into the economy but at what cost? How many unfinished houses are there? Thousands because at that  point the economy was expanding at a fantastic rate, it is now up and down like the provbial draws. That shows something isn't quite right when it is that unstable. So yes, Ireland has been the EU's little experiment.



We will see how the EU treat the likes of Poland when they suddenly loose 12 Billion Euros a year from the UK.

[Barry]

I think there should be an "allegedly" or 2 in there somewhere, Ciaphas.

[Ciaphas]

How do you envisage getting rid of him?



If he is elected with a large majority of mostly loyal MPs, you can't get rid of him for 5 years - that's a lot of time for a lot of u turns.

Currently waiting on whether he's going to be investigated to see if he'll face criminal charges in relation to the conflict of interests when he gave his mistress public money.



Could go to prison even if it's unlikely it would be allowed to get that far.

[Javert]

It will be a power short lived if he does a tory on us Javert , trust me on this

How do you envisage getting rid of him?



If he is elected with a large majority of mostly loyal MPs, you can't get rid of him for 5 years - that's a lot of time for a lot of u turns.

[Conchúr]

I am a capitalists, the EU IS NOT. They are a socialist(at best) movement. How is wanting to move away from a system that feeds less deserving nations not capitalism? How is Greece or indeed Ireland 10 years ago not a socialist experiment? The Conservatives are a Capitalist party.



Brexit a farce!! QED



As for Ireland asserting its interests, not a problem. I'd happily put the hard border back and shoot anyone not waving a white flag that attempts to cross. SI think they have the sword of Damocles hanging over the UK but you are very much mistaken. The U.K. hasn't ceded sovereignty to the EU, the EU will ultimately agree to a mutually beneficial agreement, we all know this, just have to wait for a Conservative majority first.

I'd be fascinated to hear how you think Ireland was a socialist experiment. It would seem extraordinarily strange for a socialist experiment to create an economic model like Ireland's — a thoroughly capitalist, open, free market economy.  But as I've asked you before — was the Marshall Plan "socialist"?  It seems strange to me that a capitalist such as yourself does not differentiate handout from investment. The EU invests in its smaller/weaker member states because it helps to generate prosperity and co-operation across a wider geographic and economic area.



What would you prefer ? That Eastern Europe remains isolated in the economic shadow of Russia, or as members of the EU they can remain economically aligned to the West and develop as free economies within the single market — thus creating trade and service partners within a few hours flight from London?  This isn't socialism at all — it is capitalism.  In fact, bringing Eastern Europe into the single market, and further out of Russian dominance, is one of capitalism's greatest victories.



As for the last point — you can see the problem — you take Ireland's stance as a boast and brag, and you double down. Ireland isn't holding any glorified sword over the UK, it is simply refusing to accept illogical approaches to the border. Yes, someday there will be mutually beneficial agreement — but mutually beneficial does not necessarily mean a better deal than you had within the EU!

[Nick]

Firstly, lower taxes under the conservatives may enhance your business, but I referred to the fact that your stance on Brexit is not conservative — not your stance on tax.



Secondly, where have I ever said that Leave didn't win?  Where have I said that the referendum should be ignored?   The UK is a parliamentary democracy and the British people elected MPs at the last election who in the majority refused to allow the Conservative government to pursue its blind strategies.  The people can choose new representatives in the upcoming election who will allow it.  That doesn't prevent me from having an opinion that Leavers will one day wake up and realize it was all a farce.



I mean, look at the Withdrawal Agreement man. From the very outset, the UK has effectively ceded sovereign territory to the EU economic sphere.  From the very start, a pro-Brexit government has done what they once criticised as a total annexation they would never agree to. The Leave campaign didn't mention this when they talked about taking back control did they? If tiny little Ireland, backed by the EU, was able to assert its interests so forcefully against the UK in coming to this deal, then what the hell is going to happen in the whole future myriad of deals to come when the EU, China, USA, India etc want to exert pressure on the UK to maximize the benefits they get from those deals?

I am a capitalists, the EU IS NOT. They are a socialist(at best) movement. How is wanting to move away from a system that feeds less deserving nations not capitalism? How is Greece or indeed Ireland 10 years ago not a socialist experiment? The Conservatives are a Capitalist party.



Brexit a farce!! QED



As for Ireland asserting its interests, not a problem. I'd happily put the hard border back and shoot anyone not waving a white flag that attempts to cross. SI think they have the sword of Damocles hanging over the UK but you are very much mistaken. The U.K. hasn't ceded sovereignty to the EU, the EU will ultimately agree to a mutually beneficial agreement, we all know this, just have to wait for a Conservative majority first.

[Conchúr]

I don't.



I particularly don't give a sh*t about the Republic of Ireland. I might have some sympathy for the six counties. But be in no doubt I'm an equal opportunity don't give a flying f**k kind of guy. I don't care if all 27 of the others go down the toilet, as most probably will the way they are carrying on.

Don't get me wrong, I often find that comments like this are merely a deflection from the insecurity of being unable to form intelligent arguments. Nonetheless, if the above is truly how you feel, then all I can say is that I feel sorry for you.



Anyway, I was enjoying the conversation with Nick so, while the adults talk, maybe you can go punch a map of Europe or something?

[Barry]

Not once have you acknowledged that 17.4 million people voted to leave and that is the will of the people, all I hear is that we either didn't know what we were doing or it was a dirty campaign. For once acknowledge that a democratic process was undertook and leave won.



Secondly, of course I care that SI will suffer, they are thoroughly decent people and I have always had the greatest of time there, but Varadkar has tried to play hard ball whilst hanging onto mummy's apron. He needs to decide on how he is going to play the end game, the EU always looks after the EU and a net zero contributor could look like a decent trade off to keep their biggest market.



Thirdly, you disregarded the fact I said that lower taxes under the Conservatives enhances by business.

It's funny how the Irish contingent will only rarely engage any salient points.

You might be forgiven for thinking that they are working from an EU crib sheet, to keep preaching at us. They've not yet twigged that it's too late.

[Conchúr]

Not once have you acknowledged that 17.4 million people voted to leave and that is the will of the people, all I hear is that we either didn't know what we were doing or it was a dirty campaign. For once acknowledge that a democratic process was undertook and leave won.



Secondly, of course I care that SI will suffer, they are thoroughly decent people and I have always had the greatest of time there, but Varadkar has tried to play hard ball whilst hanging onto mummy's apron. He needs to decide on how he is going to play the end game, the EU always looks after the EU and a net zero contributor could look like a decent trade off to keep their biggest market.



Thirdly, you disregarded the fact I said that lower taxes under the Conservatives enhances by business.

Firstly, lower taxes under the conservatives may enhance your business, but I referred to the fact that your stance on Brexit is not conservative — not your stance on tax.



Secondly, where have I ever said that Leave didn't win?  Where have I said that the referendum should be ignored?   The UK is a parliamentary democracy and the British people elected MPs at the last election who in the majority refused to allow the Conservative government to pursue its blind strategies.  The people can choose new representatives in the upcoming election who will allow it.  That doesn't prevent me from having an opinion that Leavers will one day wake up and realize it was all a farce.



I mean, look at the Withdrawal Agreement man. From the very outset, the UK has effectively ceded sovereign territory to the EU economic sphere.  From the very start, a pro-Brexit government has done what they once criticised as a total annexation they would never agree to. The Leave campaign didn't mention this when they talked about taking back control did they? If tiny little Ireland, backed by the EU, was able to assert its interests so forcefully against the UK in coming to this deal, then what the hell is going to happen in the whole future myriad of deals to come when the EU, China, USA, India etc want to exert pressure on the UK to maximize the benefits they get from those deals?

[johnofgwent]

What points do you want me to respond to?  It seems like you're moving the goalposts a bit here — trying to shift the conversation rather than tackling the opinion I have explained to you that you are not actually a true conservative.



I care about British democracy, as I care about democracy anywhere else in the world. I think the Leave campaign was the greatest con ever perpetrated against the British electorate, and will go down in history as such.  Democracy built on lies and fantasies is not democracy — it is a sham.  When I see democracy being turned into a sham, I am inclined to be opposed to the sham.



And if we are talking about caring about eachother as neighboring countries, you have literally just said that Brexit will hurt Ireland more than any other country in the world.  Do you care about that?

 I don't.



I particularly don't give a shit about the Republic of Ireland. I might have some sympathy for the six counties. But be in no doubt I'm an equal opportunity don't give a flying F@@@ kind of guy. I don't care if all 27 of the others go down the toilet, as most probably will the way they are carrying on.

[johnofgwent]

Thoughts?



I know several here were planning on voting for the BXP.



Happy because it might make a BJ brexit more likely?



Angry because it might make a BJ brexit more likely?

I will be voting for them.