Stay Alert anybody the wiser?

[Borg Refinery]

:hattip ! for your above 5 posts



I would take issue with one point; re the BNP. IMHO they were um... not "Brit Nationalists" if Nick Griffin's beliefs were anything to go by.



https://www.channel4.com/news/what-is-bnp-leader-nick-griffin-doing-in-syria">https://www.channel4.com/news/what-is-b ... g-in-syria">https://www.channel4.com/news/what-is-bnp-leader-nick-griffin-doing-in-syria



Hey, if they want an ethno-state, I'd happily give them Waltham Cross and half of the marshland around Broxbourne and all that stuff, in my ideal world. But I don't think their idea of a US confederacy type world order is particularly nationalistic or patriotic, I mean extremists like Qadafi and um, Farrakkhan are not 'nice' people and having ethno-seperationist ideals in line with those guys is bad news.



  .... Not to suggest that the idiotic yank-brit intervention in Libya, or Syria and so on was justified in any way...but still.



Edit;



I think JoG supported the BNP for highly specific reasons given something tragic that happened, and a specific policy they supported. I can understand why he did that given the circumstances, although obviously I could never agree nor support a toxic group like that lot; but just thought this needed pointing out.....

[Thomas]

Agree,this I mentioned several times on another forum,the speed with which local politicians sought to agree to this and self aggrandisement without accounting for central govts cynical manoeuvres when it goes tits up and they shrug their shoulders and refer them to the local aunt Sally's.

well cromwell , i dont know that much about devolution in england , or the powers of manchester mayors. We dont have mayors in my country.



...but remind me , didnt the majority of england reject devolution under new labour?



It appears to me westminster seems to have imposed devolution in various forms on your country that doesnt want it , but wont honour devolution in my country ( and johns ) that do want it. Not only that we were promised during the indyref of 2014 the most powerfull devolved parliament in the world , and we got control of road signs instead ::



75% of scotland voted for devolution , barely 6 % of scotland on average is against it , and independence is hovering around50% and gradually climbing.



John could be a hero of the indy movement by rolling back the "hated " ( from his perspective) devolution and tipping indy support right over the cliff edge.

[Thomas]

I'm not under the impression that JOG is a British nationalist but maybe I'm wrong.

...and whats wrong with being a british nationalist javert?



You make it sound like an insult! Its a perfectly valid view , as valid as yours or mine. It just happens to be on the opposite side of the fence from my view.



John of gwent is a british nationalist javert not because i say so , but by his own words thoughts and deeds on two forums i have known him on for the last ten years. He stood as a losing candidate for the British National Party , and the whole reason i bring it up is im giving you a reason why he has an implacable hatred of devolution. It divides his "country" into pieces.

He has pointed out several times that there is a problem with accountability with devolution right now

Rubbish. John and i have been debating on and off for years the merits of devolution. Devolution could be the best thing since sliced bread , and john would still hate it. Accountability is nothing more than a red herring .

This problem is caused where you devolve accountability, without devolving the ability raise the required funds or make the required decisions to satisfy those needs.



In the end it comes back to no taxation without representation in reverse. If you are held accountable for something you need the ability to raise funds to fulfil those responsibilities.

So what are you saying then javert? Do you agree with johns position that devolution must be destroyed in the "celtic nations" simply because you appear to believe westminster wont allow us full accountability and responsibility , so somehow thats our fault and it must end?



I know better than you the pitfalls of devolution. I have often mentioned the westminster tactic of devolving blame but little power.



Power devolved is power retained , and you are highlighting yet again not a problem with devolution , but westminster misgovernance and overt centralisation.



In scotlands case , you do realise home rule has been a feature of this wonderfull union for its entire history? Lord seaforth first put forward the initial home rule bill in 1714 , and was fillibustered out , and it took westminster a further 285 years to do something about" home rule" in one form or another , and then only when they were dragged kicking and screaming to do so by the european union.



You talk also about raising funds and accountability......you do realise the whole point of independence is exactly that?

In Scotland it's not quite as bad because the Scottish government at least has some ability to vary taxation.

Rubbish. The scottish government have the power to tinker with tax bands at the edges , and this is merely a fiscal trap to make us look bad rather than any real devolving of powers for the good of our country.



The SNP have asked for full fiscal autonomy all my life , and westminster refuses . I wonder why? Couyld it be for example since 2012 , scotland has provided westminster with a net profit of £426 billion from scottish taxpayers . and since devolution began in 1999 , for evey pound scotland has sent westminster , it has sent back 55p for scotland to spend on itself?



Not to mention subsidising uk defence spending above the eu 15 average , most of which is spent outside scotland or paying an8.9% share of your capital cities crossrail project?



You can see why they dont want us in control of our own money , while happily devolving blame?!



...but then , this is the parliament that recorded a deficit every year for 180 years when ruling india , one of the richest countries in the world , while secretly extracting £45 trillion. Westmisnter doesnt like countires being in charge of its own money for some strange reason.

This is also a major issue in local councils in the UK where councils have certain legal obligations and community expectations, but most of their money comes from central government and their ability to raise money from the local community is capped.

Why tell me? Again you inform me , a scottish independence supporter , of the problem of westminster misgovernance? :roll:

So to me, the problem is not devolution per se, but the tactic by the UK government of devolving responsibility without devolving the actual ability to resolve the problems.

We know all that javert. So tell john of gwent this not me. He wont tolerate devolution in any way shape or form , as he is a british nationalist.

[cromwell]

I'm not under the impression that JOG is a British nationalist but maybe I'm wrong.



He has pointed out several times that there is a problem with accountability with devolution right now.  This problem is caused where you devolve accountability, without devolving the ability raise the required funds or make the required decisions to satisfy those needs.



In the end it comes back to no taxation without representation in reverse.  If you are held accountable for something you need the ability to raise funds to fulfil those responsibilities.



In Scotland it's not quite as bad because the Scottish government at least has some ability to vary taxation.



This is also a major issue in local councils in the UK where councils have certain legal obligations and community expectations, but most of their money comes from central government and their ability to raise money from the local community is capped.



Weirdly it's not such a legal issue, but more an issue of tradition, in Parish councils where there are very few legal limits on how much "precept" a local Parish council can charge as part of Coucil Taxes.



So to me, the problem is not devolution per se, but the tactic by the UK government of devolving responsibility without devolving the actual ability to resolve the problems.

Agree,this I mentioned several times on another forum,the speed with which local politicians sought to agree to this and self aggrandisement without accounting for central govts cynical manoeuvres when it goes tits up and they shrug their shoulders and refer them to the local aunt Sally's.

[Javert]

I think so far in this thread you have trotted out every excuse imaginable to roll back devolution , simply because you are a british nationalist who wont accept devolution in any way shape or form rather than a concerned welsh citizen arguing the merits and pitfalls of devolution merely because you want better governance.

I'm not under the impression that JOG is a British nationalist but maybe I'm wrong.



He has pointed out several times that there is a problem with accountability with devolution right now.  This problem is caused where you devolve accountability, without devolving the ability raise the required funds or make the required decisions to satisfy those needs.



In the end it comes back to no taxation without representation in reverse.  If you are held accountable for something you need the ability to raise funds to fulfil those responsibilities.



In Scotland it's not quite as bad because the Scottish government at least has some ability to vary taxation.



This is also a major issue in local councils in the UK where councils have certain legal obligations and community expectations, but most of their money comes from central government and their ability to raise money from the local community is capped.



Weirdly it's not such a legal issue, but more an issue of tradition, in Parish councils where there are very few legal limits on how much "precept" a local Parish council can charge as part of Coucil Taxes.



So to me, the problem is not devolution per se, but the tactic by the UK government of devolving responsibility without devolving the actual ability to resolve the problems.

[Thomas]

This is truly remarkable: in the middle of the biggest international crisis since World War II, support for independence has just INCREASED to 50%

[/b]

Should Scotland be an independent country?  (Panelbase, 1st-5th May 2020):



Yes 50% (+1)

No 50% (-1)

[/b]



http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2020/05/this-is-astonishing-were-in-biggest.html">http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2020/05 ... ggest.html">http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2020/05/this-is-astonishing-were-in-biggest.html

[Thomas]

LucidTalk Poll: Support For A Border Poll And United Ireland Grows

[/b]

According to the latest LucidTalk poll commissioned by The Detail, the Belfast-based current affairs publication, if given the option of a so-called "border poll" 45.4% of voters in the Six Counties would support a united Ireland while a wafer thin majority of 46.8% would oppose it, with 7.8% undecided on the question. That "Yes" vote increases to 47.9% when the question is phrased in the context of "Northern Ireland" rejoining the European Union within a unitary Irish state, while the "No" side drops to 44.8%.

[/b]



https://ansionnachfionn.com/2020/02/24/lucidtalk-poll-support-for-a-border-poll-and-united-ireland-grows/">https://ansionnachfionn.com/2020/02/24/ ... and-grows/">https://ansionnachfionn.com/2020/02/24/lucidtalk-poll-support-for-a-border-poll-and-united-ireland-grows/

[Thomas]

Can't disagree with that, but yeah it was very much a "we are where we are" point; not relating to the invasion & annexation of Ulster by the Brits.



I'm quite supportive of the 'old IRA' around Larkin

, Connolly's time. They were right to fight back against the state at the time. The new incarnations are nothing like the old Fenians and old IRA, ie the old movements were true republicans... not terrorists.



As things stand, as of 2020, I believe only a referendum could settle rifts for reunification but maybe I'm wrong.

spot on. Great fan of james connolly myself , another rebellious scotsman. 8-)  Been a scottish republican all my life.



Again i agree with the referendum  being the only way to settle old scores. Getting it at the minute from an english s.o.s is going to be the problem , but the writing is on the wall for the union in the north.evryone knows it , especially after johnson being the latest of a long line of british prime miisters to shaft the loyal unionists , from churchill onwards.

[Thomas]

IIRC there was some West Mercian thingymajog too..

Mercia was a small petty kingdom of england in the dark ages  , who spoke the same language , and saw themselves as part of the same anglo culture , as the other petty english kingdoms.



Scotland is a celtic country , that has never ever been part of england , spoke a celtic language for 2500 of the last 3000 years , and always saw itself completely different from england in terms of ethnicity language history culture and politics since the country was founded in the dark ages.



A comparison to some english regions movement for some form of devolution would be say strathclyde wanting a bit more devolution from edinburgh.



good luck to them , decentralisation is never a bad thing i say.

Berwick-upon-Tweed: English or Scottish?

As i understand it berwick is legally an english town on scottish soil. I think it has obviously passed hands time and again between out two countries , but was originally founded by the northumbrian angles , so you could say we nicked it first.

General election 2019: The politics of power in Yorkshire

I dont buy that at all .Yorkshire has never been a seperate entity in england long history , with the possibile exception of being part of the danelaw. Are they saying they want to be part of denmark again?Again i think this is a mere diversion. Yorkshire has none of the halmarks of a nation ireland wales and scotland have , and none of the history behind is showing it different to the rest of england.Again though  , i say to them crack on if thats what they want.



A divided fractured england is more power to us. 8-)

Hmm, ok I guess that's far better than I remembered.



Some of the local GDP PC figures are mad, Edinburgh is "€50,400".



I guess it could still be like Kuwait, average GDP PC across Scotland would be in the 30,000's region

.



Scotlands GDP per capita is $45 904.



Independent austrias GDP per capita is $46 436.



Wee malta  is the size of the island of arran , with a popualtion smaller than ediburgh and GDP 5th of scotlands , yet its been indy of the uk since 1964 and never once asked to come back. Been in the eu since 2004 , and shared eu presidency in 2017 , and didnt need to ask englands permission to do so.

JoG has reminded me of the cottage burners since 2007 on some other forum. I'm not sure they're done yet.

I like john of gwent despite being at political odds with him. Despite this , apart from brexit , he appears to be out of touch with his fellow welsh on practically every single subject i can think of . John certainly doesnt appear to be a barometer for welsh public opinion.

Pretty much, but as you allude - some folks are so wedded to this romantic notion of a union via their updragging I guess..

They are , but its a dying shrinking generation , not just in scotland and northern ireland either.



The post war british consensus is fast fading into history , and one of the biggest enemies of the current union isnt scotland , but english nationalism. The uk wont survive it.

Roughly around the time Brown and Nu Lab doing their best to alienate voters with foot in mouth disease ..

With the election of starmer and appointements for cooper and reeve , labour dont appear to have learned much if anything about those years....

[Borg Refinery]

By the way dynamis , the only if they decide it reference is a wee bit hard to take.



Its hard trying to argue democracy in a province whose whole history is one of anti democracy.



The british had no thought about "only if they decide it " when they carved 6 counties out of a country they had ruled as a single entity for centuries , not based on democracy but on spite.



only 2 of those 6 counties had in built unionist majorities , two were nationalists and the other two split.



They then proceeded to set up and run a sectarian apartheid state which was based on anything but "what the people decided" , to the disgust of the entire world , culminating in the long war and thirty years of troubles and demonstations for human rights.



Had the people been left  to decide what they wanted , northern ireland would never have existed. Britain raised up and put into power an extreme minority on the island of ireland , then had the cheek to moan at putin when he carved out crimea and did similar to ukraine a century later.



History and hindsight is a wonderfull thing though  and we are where we are.

Can't disagree with that, but yeah it was very much a "we are where we are" point; not relating to the invasion & annexation of Ulster by the Brits.



I'm quite supportive of the 'old IRA' around Larkin

, Connolly's time. They were right to fight back against the state at the time. The new incarnations are nothing like the old Fenians and old IRA, ie the old movements were true republicans... not terrorists.



As things stand, as of 2020, I believe only a referendum could settle rifts for reunification but maybe I'm wrong.

[Borg Refinery]

Nothing really to touch upon. I see what you are getting at , but the point is the english hinterlands in the north have always been the poorer areas throughout english history , often deprived , forgotten and ridiculed , and a few cherry picked decades of industrialisation out of hundreds of years of neglect and irrelevance wont change that.

Fair point.

Heavy industry backed up by unions are a thing of the past  .



However you want to dress this up though , only northern england can do something about it. Unlike scotland ireland or wales , they have no sense of a speperate identity as a country , and seem to want to work within the confines of england and the current uk rather than do something about it , and merely appear to flip flop in terms of voting between lab/tory tennis.

Fair point, however there are small scale 'rebellions' I suppose.



(ok this is not re indy but interesting anyway)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/england/8640148.stm">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/ ... 640148.stm">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/england/8640148.stm



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/election-2019-50575058">https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co ... 9-50575058">https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/election-2019-50575058



IIRC there was some West Mercian thingymajog too..

Eh?



Estonia Latvia Lithuania slovenia and croatias combined GDP (2017) was £179.56 billion. Scotlands  alone was £179.5 billion.

Hmm, ok I guess that's far better than I remembered.



Some of the local GDP PC figures are mad, Edinburgh is "€50,400".



I guess it could still be like Kuwait, average GDP PC across Scotland would be in the 30,000's region.

Not sure. Wales is totally different to scotland in many many ways. They appear to be a nation of people who have totally given up and resigned themselves to their fate as a doormat and holiday home destination for england.

JoG has reminded me of the cottage burners since 2007 on some other forum. I'm not sure they're done yet.  

Well they are well along that route , 100 years ago unionism held 75 % of the vote for stormont , and now cant reach 50%. The demographics are against unionism in two of the three celtic countries.



What actually is the need or point of unionism with england?



If you need a union , the european union is much bigger fairere better and stronger , meaning england is redundant. If you dont want any union , then total independence is the way. Either way , the uk is fecked.

Pretty much, but as you allude - some folks are so wedded to this romantic notion of a union via their updragging I guess..



I was dragged up in London, always thought the Ukulele was the best thing ever until one day it clicked that it wasn't. Roughly around the time Brown and Nu Lab doing their best to alienate voters with foot in mouth disease  ..

[Thomas]

Re NI, I guess reunification with the free state is the best thing, but only if they decide it.

By the way dynamis , the only if they decide it reference is a wee bit hard to take.



Its hard trying to argue democracy in a province whose whole history is one of anti democracy.



The british had no thought about "only if they decide it " when they carved 6 counties out of a country they had ruled as a single entity for centuries , not based on democracy but on spite.



only 2 of those 6 counties had in built unionist majorities , two were nationalists and the other two split.



They then proceeded to set up and run a sectarian apartheid state which was based on anything but "what the people decided" , to the disgust of the entire world , culminating in the long war and thirty years of troubles and demonstations for human rights.



Had the people been left  to decide what they wanted , northern ireland would never have existed. Britain raised up and put into power an extreme minority on the island of ireland , then had the cheek to moan at putin when he carved out crimea and did similar to ukraine a century later.



History and hindsight is a wonderfull thing though  and we are where we are.

[Thomas]

I agree in the main, but I feel you've not touched on the point that northern england became the country's economic powerhouse for several periods of time; so the unions and workers had a lot more bargaining power back a few decades ago. Westmonster was kind of forced to listen - or at least pretend to be listening anyway.

Nothing really to touch upon. I see what you are getting at , but the point is the english hinterlands in the north have always been the poorer areas throughout english history , often deprived , forgotten and ridiculed , and a few cherry picked decades of industrialisation out of hundreds of years of neglect and irrelevance wont change that.



Heavy industry backed up by unions are a thing of the past  .



However you want to dress this up though , only northern england can do something about it. Unlike scotland ireland or wales , they have no sense of a speperate identity as a country , and seem to want to work within the confines of england and the current uk rather than do something about it , and merely appear to flip flop in terms of voting between lab/tory tennis.



I cant see what someone in scotland ireland france or germany though is expected to do about it.?

It would be great if you had full independence I agree, while the 'kuwait' thing but be a bit harder than in the 1970's, you're probably still looking at the level of a rich baltic newish-EU member state type standard, maybe Estonia or something, which is much better than at present.

Eh?



Estonia Latvia Lithuania slovenia and croatias combined GDP (2017) was £179.56 billion. Scotlands  alone was £179.5 billion.

Re Wales? More autonomy would be good I guess....are there any realistic projections forwhat a indy Wales would be like?

Not sure. Wales is totally different to scotland in many many ways. They appear to be a nation of people who have totally given up and resigned themselves to their fate as a doormat and holiday home destination for england.

Re NI, I guess reunification with the free state is the best thing, but only if they decide it.

Well they are well along that route , 100 years ago unionism held 75 % of the vote for stormont , and now cant reach 50%. The demographics are against unionism in two of the three celtic countries.



What actually is the need or point of unionism with england?



If you need a union , the european union is much bigger fairere better and stronger , meaning england is redundant. If you dont want any union , then total independence is the way. Either way , the uk is fecked.

[Borg Refinery]

Lack of interest in northern england isnt something that was thatcher specific , or since. This is a constant throughout englands history.



All that has mattered is london and the surrounding areas.



However thats not my problem.



England needs to learn to sort its own issues out , not constantly look to scotland or other countries to do it for her.



Even the labour party minions in scotland no longer trumpet that old socialist mantra of scotland needing to stay in the union to hold englands hand in some show of solidarity after the english working class voting to stick two fingers up to the working class in dublin and paris , then voting tory in 2019 to make sure brexit happens.



I fully agree england needs her own english parliament , and i am more than willing to help by withdrawing my countries mps completely.

I agree in the main, but I feel you've not touched on the point that northern england became the country's economic powerhouse for several periods of time; so the unions and workers had a lot more bargaining power back a few decades ago. Westmonster was kind of forced to listen - or at least pretend to be listening anyway.



It would be great if you had full independence I agree, while the 'kuwait' thing but be a bit harder than in the 1970's, you're probably still looking at the level of a rich baltic newish-EU member state type standard, maybe Estonia or something, which is much better than at present.



Re Wales? More autonomy would be good I guess....are there any realistic projections forwhat a indy Wales would be like?



Re NI, I guess reunification with the free state is the best thing, but only if they decide it.



Dunno much about Cornish independence...

[Thomas]

England is missing accountability too.



What about our Northern folks who are left behind by London & SE centric govt? It's the same thing; after their communities were decimated by Thatcher, their concerns were also routinely ignored by Westminster, and still are.

Lack of interest in northern england isnt something that was thatcher specific , or since. This is a constant throughout englands history.



All that has mattered is london and the surrounding areas.



However thats not my problem.



England needs to learn to sort its own issues out , not constantly look to scotland or other countries to do it for her.



Even the labour party minions in scotland no longer trumpet that old socialist mantra of scotland needing to stay in the union to hold englands hand in some show of solidarity after the english working class voting to stick two fingers up to the working class in dublin and paris , then voting tory in 2019 to make sure brexit happens.



I fully agree england needs her own english parliament , and i am more than willing to help by withdrawing my countries mps completely.