Sturgeon: Corbyn must back indyref2 for SNP votes

[Thomas]

The uk has the biggest defence budget in the top countries of the eu as a percentage of GDP. Scotlands share we are forced to pay is around 3.2 billion.



We could save ourselves money on this one issue alone , never mind anything else by leaving the uk and stopping scottish money subsidising westminster , aligning ourselves to the eu 15 average which would mean paying 2.2 billion in defence , and with the 1 billion in savings , we could afford to pay a 15% increase in scottish pensions.

[Thomas]

Tell me churchill , if england really believes it subsidises scotland , why is your parliament determined to block scottish indy ?



Your country is sitting on a 1.8 trillion debt and counting , yet you apparently have money to spare subsidising scotland ireland wales etc?

[Thomas]

I don't debate going round in endless circles , unlike you I know I don't have the ability to read minds if you had asked me a question of our invasions of other countries which Scottish Welsh and Irish soldiers also took part in I would have answered to the best of my ability , but you didn't you answered for me wrongly, now that is what I call nonsense

The scottish irish welsh indians and many other nations did take part under duress in invasions .



It was a standard tactic of all empires since before the days of rome to get the colonised to police the colonies , and do the dying if need be.



Thats why english people often sit today scratching their heads at why england cannot afford a modern capable military in the 21 st century.



It was always the conquered and colonised doing the fighting and paying for you empire , now that is no more , you are struggling to afford and upkeep a modern 21st century army , where the russians alone have bigger single regiments than the whole of your army , and  you have to rent 200 warheads off the yanks and ask their permission ever to use them while pretending you are still a world power.



As for the rest i have put to the sword every ridiculous unionists argument and myth you have presented .

[Churchill]

of course it is. I welcome your posts.



However i was simply pointing out you wont have a material say on scottish independence.









I agree , but im simply asking what are you personally doing about it apart from bleating on a political forum that you dont care if scotland leaves the union?



Im not suggesting you go out in the streets and shake westminster to its foundations , however why is it beyond the wit and ability of any englishman who i meet that tells me they dont care about this union to join us in attempting to end it? Like i say , talk is cheap.





No they didnt , see my earlier darien copy and paste. Scotland was booming economically pre union , and just because a handful of lords lost a few quid on setting up a colony in the isthmus of darien doesnt mean scotland the nation was ruined.



Further you not only ignore that pertinent point , but you ignore england siding with the spanish to ruin the darien project , as well as bribing a mere 167 lords in the old scottish parliament to join their union while at the same time massing the english army and navy at out border and along our coast if we refused.



..but in your world you believe scotland wanted the union. We no more wanted to be part of your empire than any other country on this earth. :roll:









im not trying to , im trying to change the future.



However  i can attack and destroy myths and false history of the origins of the union. You on the other hand can only trot out fantasy that you wish to believe to give you some warm glow inside while 62 countries around the world and half the scottish nation laugh at your fantasises.







We can have as many referendums as we like . We have already established the fact it is nothing to do with you in england as you wont have a vote or a say.



As a democrat im not scared of referendums.People in any country can have as many as they like , as long as each time the result is implemented.



It only appears to be in your anti democratic country that referendum results dont get implemented , just like you did to scotland in 1979 where you turned a yes vote into a no vote , then were dragged kicking and screamin to implement the result 20 years later.







Dont talk rubbish.



Clearly as well as history you know nothing about the referendum in scotland in 2014. I know you couldnt vote , you not being a scottish resident and national , but clearly the better together campaign was funded controlled and got most of its money from your country. On top of that , the vast vast majority of media in my country blasts out british propaganda and isnt owned or controlled by scots.



While the scottish electorate have the final say , the idea your country doesnt interfere is one of the most laughable bits of nonsense i have heard in my life.



Next you will be telling me you didnt invade or interfere with 62 countire around the world , they just happened to want to join your  benevolant empire  ,give control of their countries to you and all their wealth and reosurces. :roll:  ::  ::

I don't debate going round in endless circles , unlike you I know I don't have the ability to read minds if you had asked me a question of our invasions of other countries which Scottish Welsh and Irish soldiers also took part in I would have answered to the best of my ability , but you didn't you answered for me wrongly, now that is what I call nonsense

[Thomas]

No idea I have very little interest if any in Scottish affairs,I am more concerned of what happens in my country not yours

good for you , its a shame your english mps dont take the same attitude.

[Churchill]

Churchill , tell me this.,



Since 2012 , scotland , a country with almost no borrowing powers , has paid off over £16.5 billion in debt interest.



Whose debt are we paying off then?

No idea I have very little interest if any in Scottish affairs,I am more concerned of what happens in my country not yours

[Thomas]

Churchill , tell me this.,



Since 2012 , scotland , a country with almost no borrowing powers , has paid off over £16.5 billion in debt interest.



Whose debt are we paying off then?

[Thomas]

edit~# double post

[Thomas]

Thomas



You post as you wish, I will do the same I believe that is the norm in a debating Forum is it not?

of course it is. I welcome your posts.



However i was simply pointing out you wont have a material say on scottish independence.

the sooner you get Independence the better as far as I am concerned, as I have already stated I wish for an English Parliament unfortunately that will not come about in my lifetime.

I agree , but im simply asking what are you personally doing about it apart from bleating on a political forum that you dont care if scotland leaves the union?



Im not suggesting you go out in the streets and shake westminster to its foundations , however why is it beyond the wit and ability of any englishman who i meet that tells me they dont care about this union to join us in attempting to end it? Like i say , talk is cheap.

If you want to put the blame on anyone for being in the Union as I stated before blame your ancestors who joined for financial reasons they were only too happy to do so back then

No they didnt , see my earlier darien copy and paste. Scotland was booming economically pre union , and just because a handful of lords lost a few quid on setting up a colony in the isthmus of darien doesnt mean scotland the nation was ruined.



Further you not only ignore that pertinent point , but you ignore england siding with the spanish to ruin the darien project , as well as bribing a mere 167 lords in the old scottish parliament to join their union while at the same time massing the english army and navy at out border and along our coast if we refused.



..but in your world you believe scotland wanted the union. We no more wanted to be part of your empire than any other country on this earth. :roll:

You cannot change the past yours or mine,

im not trying to , im trying to change the future.



However  i can attack and destroy myths and false history of the origins of the union. You on the other hand can only trot out fantasy that you wish to believe to give you some warm glow inside while 62 countries around the world and half the scottish nation laugh at your fantasises.

you had a referendum on your future you lost that vote now you want another if you win that one remains to be seen,

We can have as many referendums as we like . We have already established the fact it is nothing to do with you in england as you wont have a vote or a say.



As a democrat im not scared of referendums.People in any country can have as many as they like , as long as each time the result is implemented.



It only appears to be in your anti democratic country that referendum results dont get implemented , just like you did to scotland in 1979 where you turned a yes vote into a no vote , then were dragged kicking and screamin to implement the result 20 years later.

if you lose again it will be because your fellow countrymen don't want to leave the Union you cannot blame the English or anyone else if that happens.

Dont talk rubbish.



Clearly as well as history you know nothing about the referendum in scotland in 2014. I know you couldnt vote , you not being a scottish resident and national , but clearly the better together campaign was funded controlled and got most of its money from your country. On top of that , the vast vast majority of media in my country blasts out british propaganda and isnt owned or controlled by scots.



While the scottish electorate have the final say , the idea your country doesnt interfere is one of the most laughable bits of nonsense i have heard in my life.



Next you will be telling me you didnt invade or interfere with 62 countire around the world , they just happened to want to join your  benevolant empire  ,give control of their countries to you and all their wealth and reosurces. :roll:  ::  ::

[Churchill]

Thomas



You post as you wish, I will do the same I believe that is the norm in a debating Forum is it not? the sooner you get Independence the better as far as I am concerned, as I have already stated I wish for an English Parliament unfortunately that will not come about in my lifetime.



If you want to put the blame on anyone for being in the Union as I stated before blame your ancestors who joined for financial reasons they were only too happy to do so back then, they were also happy when we had an Empire when many Scots ran the planation's and amassed fortunes in far flung places of the Empire.



You cannot change the past yours or mine, you had a referendum on your future you lost that vote now you want another if you win that one remains to be seen, if you lose again it will be because your fellow countrymen don't want to leave the Union you cannot blame the English or anyone else if that happens.



If you win great for me and you, if your countrymen vote to give your independence away again to Brussels so be it, you won't be able to blame England or the rest of UK if it does not turn out well for you.

[Thomas]

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[Thomas]

If ever you are into history churchill , and i prsume you might be regarding the regurgitation of darien earlier in this thread , you might want to pick up some of michael lynchs work on late 17th / 18 century scotland. Some of the work by tam devine is fantastic too.



Lynch and devine have both , among many other historians shown that despite the disaster of the 17 the century , which began with the scottish elite upping sticks and moving down to london with jamie stuart the saxth , the wars of the three kingdoms , cromwellian occupation and atrocities like moncks slaughter of the city of dundee , and of course the continuation of the assault on scotlands language and culture , by the end of the 17 th century specifically the last ten years , scotlands economy was booming.



The east coast burghs had never had it so good in trade with europe.



...and then came the union of 1707 , and for the next 9 decades scotlands economy went into freefall , as economic decison making went south to london along with the levers of power and scotland was saddled with billions of englands debt.





Darien didnt bankrupt scotland , the 1707 union did , and remains the single biggest economic social political and cultural disaster in scotlands  1200 years history.



Whatever tiny benefits a few made over the years where by far outweighed by the cons this disasterous union foisted on us.

[Thomas]

I tell you one thing churchill , im the biggest supporter by a country mile of english independence on this feckin forum.



English constituents should be pressing their elected representatives for a vote to end this union , you could have it set up and done by christmas.

[Thomas]

This is what we like to see churchill....... :hattip

Brexit over Scotland remaining part of the UK, finds Lord Ashcroft poll



More than three quarters of Conservative leave voters in England would rather the UK exited the European Union than Scotland remained part of the UK, according to new polling from Lord Ashcroft.



Asked which they would choose, if it is not possible to have both, 76 per cent of Tory leave voters would prioritise Brexit over the continued integrity of the UK, compared to 48 per cent of Labour leave voters and 36 per cent of voters in England overall. It found 45 per cent of voters overall would prioritise Scotland remaining in the UK over Brexit.



Meanwhile 74 per cent of Tory leave voters in England would choose leaving the EU over Northern Ireland remaining part of the UK.



Overall, 51 per cent of those polled, all based in England, said they wouldn't mind either way if Scotland voted for independence, while 39 per cent said they would be sorry if Scotland voted to leave the UK, and six per cent said they would be happy with the outcome.

[/b]





https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,conservative-leave-voters-in-england-prioritise-brexit-over-scotland-remain_14584.htm">https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,cons ... _14584.htm">https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,conservative-leave-voters-in-england-prioritise-brexit-over-scotland-remain_14584.htm





So as it stands we have nothing more than a few polls showing people in england by a slight majority wont mind if scotland ends the union , but arent that bothered enough to actually get up off their arses to do anything about it.



Dont worry churchill , we will try and do all the heavy lifting for you.

[Thomas]

I know I don't have to agree with you a rather arrogant patronising comment to make ,

 ::



sorry churchill , but thats a bit rich after you spending numerous posts on this thread not only arrogantly patronising me by trotting out the biggest load of unionists pish like the myth of darien , but insulting my intelligence in the process by claiming it was down to my ancestors that this union was founded in a shotgun wedding like fashion all those years ago.

, I know I will not have a say in Scotland's why would I want to its not my country I am more concerned about England's future not yours

...but i hear all this rubbish all the time on numerous forums. Once we get all the old unionists myths out the way , which we have largely done on this thread by putting each and every one to the sword , you then tell us you dont care about scotland only about england when you have nothing left to argue.



If that is the case , how come england can rally behind parties like ukip and brexit , hold a brexit referendum and vote to leave the eu , get prepared to vote out any mp who supports the euro union , yet cant do the same regarding the uk union?



We dont want it , you tell us you dont want it , yet for some reason no one in england ever starts an end the uk party and wants a vote to end this union?



Something wrong somewhere here , actions speak louder than words.

I am in here for because I have recently retired for something to do when I am not out and about enjoying myself, today its raining so not venturing far if the weather is better tomorrow I will be busy

Good for you , im here mainly to debate in my spare time too.



Im just telling you how it is , and it always seems to send english people into shock when they have their noses rubbed in hard cold facts.



...and the fact of the matter is why is it , if the uk is this single homogenous country that is once nation , are you not allowed to vote on scottish indy , and cant even set up , support a party and vote for english indy?