Abortion is an Unwinnable Argument - Caitlin Flanagan

[johnofgwent]

I'm sorry to hear of your story John, and I think the reaction from the church community Moria was a part of is summed up well by Flanagans statement on the resolute anti-abortionists  "they show themselves without mercy."

Thanks for that. It was in many ways a lifetime ago but i do not feel the opinions on either side have changed much.



It is a matter of severe irony that a man I worked with for some years during my research days, Dr Ian Harwood, was about to find fame as the originator of a procedure to which most mothers of premature, but otherwise basically healthy, babies owe their continued parenthood



I mentioned in another thread my close involvement in research groups interested in the lungs, their development, their role in the removal of toxins and so on.



Ian was working at the heart of that group, and his key interest was the production of surfactant in the lung. Maybe you know this, maybe you don't, but the lungs of an infant in the womb are collapsed and the issues at the end of the lungs are pretty much in contact with each other. As the infant emerges, a reflex in the muscle sheet that forms the diaphragm (or in Emma's case, did not)



In the days before a full term infant is born, hormones trigger the production, in the infant alveoli, the tiny sacs at the end of the lung passages that will fill with air and allow gas exchange, of a detergent-like molecule. The generic name for it , taken from the properties it has, is "surfactant". It works like the mix that makes a soap bubble. It uses surface tension, or rather the difference in surface tension at an air/fluid interface in a remarkable way.



As the new born infant takes its first reflexive breath, the air sucked into the lungs by the netative pressure generated by the diaphragm start to fill these tiny sacs. as the air hits the surfactant a genuine miracle happens. Teh soapy mterial forms a soap bubble in the alveoli, forcoing the tissues apart, sustaining the gas bubble, and permitting the lungs to work as they should, passing gases from the air, to the bloodstream and vice versa.



Any midwife or dad who has ever watched a new born "pink up" has witnessed the literal miracle at the molecular level that stuff causes, for lets just say the process actually gives the laws of thermodynamics a bit of a kick in the nadgers the way many enzymes catalysed reactions do and leave it at that...



Without the surfactant, the lung efficiency is fatally impaired.  And given it does not start to be generated unti the 38th or so week of pregnancy, the lack of this material was **THE** number one killer of premature babies, worldwide.



Harwood's idea was simple, to introduce this hormone to the about to be born premature infant so that it had a fighting chance



It worked. It worked more amazingly than anyone dared to dream. Survival rates for the premature baby rocketed, such that there is, today, a 50/50 chance a baby delivered at 24 weeks will make it to its first birthday. A fact unthinkable in the 60's when the abortion act was brought in



Sadly, there is now an ever increasing tumult of voices of the Greta effing Thunberg variety, ranting their pro-life lungs out that a medical profession that can half the time save a wanted child delivered at 24 weeks has no business permitting the termination of an unwanted one.



I showed Ian how to get the heart and lungs of an animal out into a perfusuion system. I am, therefore, to some extent, to blame for the empowerment of that lobby.



If there truly was a god, he would ensure that every one of those ranting harpies would be placed in a situation where they had to choose one of the two paths Moira had to choose from...



Then, and only then, would i have anything other than contempt for them.



Oh, and for those who believe in coincidences...



Much of the early episodes of "Holby City" were filmed in and around Bristol's Royal Infirmary which they used for exteriors before the series became established to the point they could build entire sets for the production. Many of the medical advisers were drawn from the pool of doctors and surgeons in practice in the area.



Fans of the series may recall the unusual medical condition her unborn child was diagnosed with. I recall even now the announcer at the start of the episode in question saying something akin to "And in tonight's Holby City Jac Naylor gets some unwelcome news" and you know how you go cold and have a clear premonition of trouble ahead. well I looked straight at Moira and said "i think you should turn this off, right now"



She ignored me of course, and had to sit through Rosie acting the part of a mother to be whose scan reveals a failure at the blastula stage of foetal development, where the gastrulation stage fails to properly form the ring of cells that will create the diaphragm leaving the problem of the infant having no means to inflate the lungs "post partum"



The scriptwriters of course moved the specialist unit at Addenbrookes to "St James's" and Rosie / Jac's decison to have the baby and hope the operation was a success worked, because most things end up smelling of roses in fictionville.



Jac called the baby Emma too.



That was the point where I decided this was no longer a coincidence.  One day I will find who leaked the medical notes to the media. when I do. I'll get to finish my experiments on the relative toxicity of cyanide and ricin...

[Nalaar]

I'm sorry to hear of your story John, and I think the reaction from the church community Moria was a part of is summed up well by Flanagans statement on the resolute anti-abortionists  "they show themselves without mercy."

[T00ts]

No, he didn't, but he didn't rain fire and brimstone down on them for straying so far from his way of doing things either.  



And that wasn't the one up the road whose celebrants believe women should shut up, stay manacled to the kitchen sink and ask their husbands what to think because that's what Saint Paul the Mysogynist wrote that they should so.

Not yet. They will be given chance to repent and see their error first.  I don't agree on Paul. He lived in a different time when the expectations were so different. We cannot judge Paul out of his time that simply isn't fair. We learn bit by bit, precept upon precept, line upon line, and truths are revealed in God's time not ours. Don't be too hard on them. Jesus taught forgiveness. Everyone can only do their best.

[johnofgwent]

Thank you for sharing JoG - it has brought tears  since I can relate with your story. I would just say that God did not cut off contact. It is not His fault that a Church saying that it followed Him was so far removed from the teachings of Jesus it is no longer relevant.

No, he didn't, but he didn't rain fire and brimstone down on them for straying so far from his way of doing things either.  



And that wasn't the one up the road whose celebrants believe women should shut up, stay manacled to the kitchen sink and ask their husbands what to think because that's what Saint Paul the Mysogynist wrote that they should so.

[T00ts]

The church moira attended cut off all contact when they realised she'd had an abortion. They are not the only reason I spit in gods face, but they are #1 on the list.

Thank you for sharing JoG - it has brought tears  since I can relate with your story. I would just say that God did not cut off contact. It is not His fault that a Church saying that it followed Him was so far removed from the teachings of Jesus it is no longer relevant. God would have cried with you and your dear wife but would also have taken your little one into His care. I can't prove it to you - I wish I could - but my own experience confirms to me that it is so.

[johnofgwent]

I am a huge fan of Caitlin Flanagan, in both how she thinks, and expresses those thoughts with devastating clarity. And here I think she represents a side of the abortion argument not often argued for - both sides.



I'll quote the final segment of the piece, but the build up to it is well worth the time to read.







The full piece can be read here https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/12/the-things-we-cant-face/600769/">//%20https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/12/the-things-we-cant-face/600769/

Please be aware that the article contains some quite intense abortion stories.

I will bite



Others on the old site already know this



I have two daughters



I should have three



At 15 weeks into her second pregnancy in 1988 my wife had an ultrasound ... and got asked back for another



I was so busy looking at the thoracic region for a repeat of my eldest's ventricular septal defect I failed to spot the problem.



Given my background that was an unthinkable error.



Emma (we named her but not officially) was the victim of a failure of the blastula / gastrula separation. She had no diaphragm.



The ultrasound had her heart unusually high in the chest because the liver and intestines were pushing the heart and lungs up



The particular problem is that without a diaphragm there is no way the lungs can inflate



We had two options.



An abortion at 24 weeks right on the legal limit, or the minuscule hope that the defect was only partial, and could be rectified by a caesarean delivery and an immediate surgical.procedure cracking the chest open and suturing the diaphragm.



I had at that time only recently left the medical research arena. Amongst my routine, daily work was micro surgical procedures on the heart and lungs of animals smaller than premature babies. Surgeons came to witness our routines and marvelled at our dexterity.



I knew better than the consultant offering me this option of the impracticality of the procedure. I knew exactly how damned impossible it is to suture the diaphragm



It took me a little while - all of eight seconds actually - to ask moira what she thought and get an answer.



Moira was admitted to the special floor of the maternity unit and gave birth to a stillborn girl after an oxytocin induced labour.



The midwife tried hard to stop me seeing but I was more cunning.



Emma struggled for maybe 30 seconds before she stopped moving. She never cried of course as she had no way to inflate her lungs.



Unlike the poor sods at alder hey who found their dead kids experimented on after the fact and without any form of information never mind consent, I was asked if I would allow the body to be used for research.



I agreed at once



A few months later I enquiries and was told when they opened emma up there was no diaphragm at all, the operation offered would have been pointless.



Up until ten years ago Emma was lying in bits in several specimen jars in my old research lab. I didnt tell the consultant asking for consent the lab they were sending the corpse to was my old research facility.



I write this primarily to agree with the statement that there really are no winners here.



Two final points



The church moira attended cut off all contact when they realised she'd had an abortion. They are not the only reason I spit in gods face, but they are #1 on the list.





And secondly



As if designed to.make my life hell, david bloody Alton was trying to bring in a bill shortening the abortion time limit to 18 weeks.



My then new to the house MP said he was undecided on the issue and asked for constituents views



I wrote telling him I would value 15 minutes of his time to explain how it would have impacted me and when he accepted I told him all of the above...



I was not the only one with such issues and a key common factor was a late scan after 18 weeks discovered a fatal defect that if altons bill was law would condemn my wife to carry to term, deliver, and hold a funeral for a baby we knew was dead in all but name



Appalled by the realisation of what Altons ideological hatred of abortion because of his 'religion' would have done to us and the several other constituents with similar accounts of pretty harrowing medical.issues, our new MP quite publicly - by a notice in the paper - declared he had received several accounts from constituents which caused him to make further enquiries and on those findings he was now going to vote against altons bill.



That chap remained an MP in the same constituency until his death last year and I felt sorrow at his passing, for no newcomer to politics would ever be allowed the freedom to think that he demanded.



Without Altons amendment, we were free to request an abortion on medical grounds and dispose of the corpse with minimal fuss. Which suited us to the ground...



Although to that last point I would add, for many in this position wish it to be  that the entire state infrastructure was ready willing and able to register the stillbirth and hold that service if we wanted it. Some people do want it  We did not.



If I ever mert david Alton, I will punch him in the nose for his attempt to make my wife carry a dead child to full term



As I said, there are no winners in this one.

[T00ts]

My intention in posting was to share what I think is a well written piece from a perspective that does not often get voiced in the public square, rather than discuss the actual topic of abortion.

Oh right!

[Nalaar]

I am not sure what it is you wish to discuss. I have not delved into the article but it seems a reasonable assumption that no side will give way to the other on something that touches the very core of religious belief in some and secular disbelief in others while both claim humanitarian concerns. I have always maintained that unless you have been faced with this personally with one or some of the various ramifications that apply, understanding is a long way off.

My intention in posting was to share what I think is a well written piece from a perspective that does not often get voiced in the public square, rather than discuss the actual topic of abortion.

[T00ts]

I am a huge fan of Caitlin Flanagan, in both how she thinks, and expresses those thoughts with devastating clarity. And here I think she represents a side of the abortion argument not often argued for - both sides.



I'll quote the final segment of the piece, but the build up to it is well worth the time to read.







The full piece can be read here https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/12/the-things-we-cant-face/600769/">//%20https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/12/the-things-we-cant-face/600769/

Please be aware that the article contains some quite intense abortion stories.

I am not sure what it is you wish to discuss. I have not delved into the article but it seems a reasonable assumption that no side will give way to the other on something that touches the very core of religious belief in some and secular disbelief in others while both claim humanitarian concerns. I have always maintained that unless you have been faced with this personally with one or some of the various ramifications that apply, understanding is a long way off.

[papasmurf]

Not a subject I am going to address on an internet forum because of the number of rabid fanatics who will come out of the woodwork.

[Nalaar]

I am a huge fan of Caitlin Flanagan, in both how she thinks, and expresses those thoughts with devastating clarity. And here I think she represents a side of the abortion argument not often argued for - both sides.



I'll quote the final segment of the piece, but the build up to it is well worth the time to read.

This is not an argument anyone is going to win. The loudest advocates on both sides are terrible representatives for their cause. When women are urged to "shout your abortion," and when abortion becomes the subject of stand-up comedy routines, the attitude toward abortion seems ghoulish. Who could possibly be proud that they see no humanity at all in the images that science has made so painfully clear? When anti-abortion advocates speak in the most graphic terms about women "sucking babies out of the womb," they show themselves without mercy. They are not considering the extremely human, complex, and often heartbreaking reasons behind women's private decisions. The truth is that the best argument on each side is a damn good one, and until you acknowledge that fact, you aren't speaking or even thinking honestly about the issue. You certainly aren't going to convince anybody. Only the truth has the power to move.

The full piece can be read here https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/12/the-things-we-cant-face/600769/">//%20https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/12/the-things-we-cant-face/600769/

Please be aware that the article contains some quite intense abortion stories.