Coronavirus: UK economy 'set for deepest downturn 'in memory'

[Borg Refinery]

Excellent info, thanks for that. I've got a 300 page Scot history book I'm snailing through um, scotland the history of a nation by David Ross.



It is a shame you can't find a loophole in the 1707 acts of union and do a really sneaky Bojo-Brexit style hack.  ::  ::  :: Now that would be brilliant..



The downturn will be something we've never seen before, it could mark several entirely different world orders. Let's hope it's something more like the federation in star trek and not the romulan empire run by Xi and Putin...

[Thomas]

Within 2 years of 1707 the Scottish economy, which had been growing by 2.5% per annum in the decade prior to 1707 was in free fall and by 1710 had collapsed and was stagnating. The Burghs saw their industrial and trading base wiped out, as their export markets were closed and the influx of cheap English goods (while the quid pro quo of trade with the English colonies was blocked by the East India Company through tariffs and trading restrictions). The impoverishment of the Burghs meant the increasing poverty of their inhabitants with numerous riots against the Union continuing. The Jacobite Lords were also unhappy with the loss of their 'Jock Gelt' and the stability that England had thought it had gained on its Northern border was once more threatened by the Jacobite's in Scotland. Even the supporters of the Union who were now 'commissioners' had woken up to the pig in a poke they had bought into and the 4th Lord Selkirk, in attempt to head off the Jacobite unrest and powder keg of the grinding poverty in the Burghs, sought to have the Treaty annulled in 1714 but was 'talked out' by English MPs. The Commissioners learnt they were very small fish in a large shark pool and now England had what it wanted they were there to be humoured and bought off for their silence.



For the next 70 years Scotland was derided by Westminster at every turn – Dr Johnson spoke for most London intellectuals and Westminster politicians deriding 'Scotch' mannerisms and attitudes at every turn – the idea of the 'Scotch' heading for London on the 'make' and being whiny, a chip on the shoulder and dependent on English largess has a long and tedious history. Yet the growing English Empire was increasingly dependent on these whiny but far better educated 'Scotch' to run their colonies. The sphincter tightening events of 1745-46 changed attitudes in London and Westminster to some extent but the real impact of the '45 rebellion was to turn Scotland into a defacto colony run by a 'viceroy' in London. A state that did not alter until 1999 and one the current coalition are trying to re-impose with Calman minus. As Westminster now thought of Scotland, when it did, in colonial terms it is not surprising that breaches of the Treaty of Union came thick and fast, all to the detriment of the Scottish people and Scotland's economy but sold as for the 'greater good' of Empire.



Because of the grinding poverty in Scotland the emptying of the land began, first in the central and southern areas with the likes of the 5th Lord Selkirk encouraging landless tenants and others to take ship to Canada where he funded the creation of the 'Red River Colony' ;  now Manitoba. The first and main clearance that occurs in Scotland is by and large forced on the Scots by the crushing of their economy, loss of income and is voluntary, though encouraged by land owners by offers of free transport, this in turn leads the major landowners to shift land use to more profitable inhabitants – the woolly maggots – a move which comes to a head early in the next century with the violence of the Sutherland Clearances.

[/b]

[Thomas]

In 1695 an Act of the Scottish Government set up the "Company of Scotland Trading in Africa and the Indies" generally just called the Company of Scotland. Although the Act limited investors to a maximum of £3000 simple maths shows that the investors found a way around this and on average invested £35,000 each (around £4 million in modern terms). A total of £400,000 was raised.

The main venture undertaken was the disastrous Darien Scheme a very ill-advised idea to colonise Panama. The investors and shareholders lost everything by 1698/99. The main investors, some 30 in number, were Scots or ex-Scots living in London.[1] In the early 1700s a plan was devised, partly within the group, and partly with the necessary politicians, to reimburse the investors 100% of their loss (plus a small bonus) if (but only if) they negotiated the relinquishing of the Scottish Parliament. If the 40 signatories to the Act of Union of 1707 are compared to those on the Company of Scotland the "rogues" can be identified[2] These include:

Adam Cockburn, Lord Ormiston

Francis Montgomery of Giffen

Sir John Clerk of Penicuik

Sir Patrick Johnston, Lord Provost of Edinburgh and the broker of the deal

Scottish politicians signing the Act were:

Hew Dalrymple, Lord North Berwick

John Erskine, Earl of Mar

James Ogilvy, Earl of Seafield

Archibald Primrose, 1st Earl of Rosebery

Sir David Dalrymple, 1st Baronet

Other shareholders compensated (but not signing the Act of Union) included:

James Foulis, 3rd Baronet of Colinton (as a commissioner for Edinburgh he possible jointly brokered the deal with Sir Patrick Johnston)

James Balfour of Pilrig

James Smollett of Bonhill (grandfather of Tobias Smollett)

Robert Chieslie of Dalry, former Lord Provost of Edinburgh (Robert died before the compensation was paid and his niece Rachel received the compensation)

Robert Corse a Glasgow sugar and tobacco merchant (Robert died before compensation was paid)

Sir James Foulis, 3rd Baronet

John Maxwell, Lord Pollok

John Hamilton, 2nd Lord Belhaven and Stenton

Robert Blackwood of Pitreavie

Samuel McLellan, Lord Provost of Edinburgh in 1707 and first MP after the Union.

One Englishman was a member of the Company of Scotland and signatory to the Act, and certainly under modern rules would be deemed to have an unacceptable personal interest and motive in the Act:

John Smith (Chancellor of the Exchequer)

another good article on the nonsense about Darien and the myth of scotland being bankrupt.....

Myth number one – Scotland was bankrupt in 1707.



Well , no, it was not.



The Burghs were cash rich and the Scottish economy in the decade prior to 1707 was growing at 2.5% per annum according to research by the historian Michael Lynch. So who was bankrupt? Well that was the Scottish land owners who had mortgaged their lands to fund the Darien Scheme and if they had not been bailed out by Westminster, the Burgh middle classes would have taken control of Scotland – something the English Government could not allow. The 'Whig' English Government had also been buying off the Jacobite Lords in Scotland to ensure the Hanoverian succession at the cost of a £1 million a year ( £1 billion in today's money). Further the Jacobite Lords were playing the 'we could ask the French for help' card which meant  'Horse Guards' had to keep English Regiments on the Scottish Border that were needed by Marlborough in continental Europe to prop up England's war against France.



What actually happened was the incoming Tory Government of the day decided they were not gaining anything as Defoe quickly reported that most of the 'Jacobite Lords' were unlikely to support James' VIIth claim on the thrones of Scotland and England so shifted the bribes from the 'Jacobite Lords' to the Tory inclined Scottish Lowland Lords who were in trouble with their Darien mortgage repayments coming due and being in danger of defaulting – the 'parcel o rogues' of Burns poem. The English Parliament needed the Union to secure their Northern border once and for all and created pressure to persuade the Scots that 'Union' was a good idea – one of which was siding with the Spanish to ensure Darien failed and another passing laws to exclude Scottish traders from all England's colonies by imposing excessive duties.

[/b]





As the article says , research by historians such as michael lynch among others ( tam devine) showed scotlands economy growing and flourishing in the years leading up to the disasterous union of 1707 , with the east coast merchant burhgs never having it so good.



What is also conveniently forgotten is how from 1707 onwards for the best part of the next century , scotlands economy went into freefall as a result of this "wonderfull union" , wars armed uprising and rebellion till around 1820 , and of course mass forced emigration.



The cons of this union was far outweighed by the so called pros ( ten bob a scot and all that shit :: ) in terms of severe damage to our culture language economy and politics. Our withered status as a nation has been plain for all to see these past three centuries.

[Thomas]

I posted this on another forum, c&p'd:



Robert Burns:

Farewell to all our Scottish way

Farewell our ancient glory

Farewell even to our Scottish name

So famed in marshal story

Now Sark over the Solway Firth

And Tweed runs to the ocean

To mark where England's Province stands

Such a parcel of rogues in a nation

What force or guile could not subdue

Through many war-like ages

Is wrought now by a coward few

For hiring traders wages

The English steel we could disdain

Secured in Valor's station

But we're bought and we're sold for English Gold

Such a Parcel Of Rogues in a nation

Oh would or I had seen the day

That treason thus could sell us

My old gray head had lyed in clay

With Bruce and loyal Wallace

But pith and power, till my last hour

I'll make this declaration

That we're bought and we're sold for English Gold

Such a Parcel of Rogues In a nation

 :thup:

[Borg Refinery]

I posted this on another forum, c&p'd:



Robert Burns:

Farewell to all our Scottish way

Farewell our ancient glory

Farewell even to our Scottish name

So famed in marshal story

Now Sark over the Solway Firth

And Tweed runs to the ocean

To mark where England's Province stands

Such a parcel of rogues in a nation

What force or guile could not subdue

Through many war-like ages

Is wrought now by a coward few

For hiring traders wages

The English steel we could disdain

Secured in Valor's station

But we're bought and we're sold for English Gold

Such a Parcel Of Rogues in a nation

Oh would or I had seen the day

That treason thus could sell us

My old gray head had lyed in clay

With Bruce and loyal Wallace

But pith and power, till my last hour

I'll make this declaration

That we're bought and we're sold for English Gold

Such a Parcel of Rogues In a nation

----



iwiki:

In 1695 an Act of the Scottish Government set up the "Company of Scotland Trading in Africa and the Indies" generally just called the Company of Scotland. Although the Act limited investors to a maximum of £3000 simple maths shows that the investors found a way around this and on average invested £35,000 each (around £4 million in modern terms). A total of £400,000 was raised.

The main venture undertaken was the disastrous Darien Scheme a very ill-advised idea to colonise Panama. The investors and shareholders lost everything by 1698/99. The main investors, some 30 in number, were Scots or ex-Scots living in London.[1] In the early 1700s a plan was devised, partly within the group, and partly with the necessary politicians, to reimburse the investors 100% of their loss (plus a small bonus) if (but only if) they negotiated the relinquishing of the Scottish Parliament. If the 40 signatories to the Act of Union of 1707 are compared to those on the Company of Scotland the "rogues" can be identified[2] These include:

Adam Cockburn, Lord Ormiston

Francis Montgomery of Giffen

Sir John Clerk of Penicuik

Sir Patrick Johnston, Lord Provost of Edinburgh and the broker of the deal

Scottish politicians signing the Act were:

Hew Dalrymple, Lord North Berwick

John Erskine, Earl of Mar

James Ogilvy, Earl of Seafield

Archibald Primrose, 1st Earl of Rosebery

Sir David Dalrymple, 1st Baronet

Other shareholders compensated (but not signing the Act of Union) included:

James Foulis, 3rd Baronet of Colinton (as a commissioner for Edinburgh he possible jointly brokered the deal with Sir Patrick Johnston)

James Balfour of Pilrig

James Smollett of Bonhill (grandfather of Tobias Smollett)

Robert Chieslie of Dalry, former Lord Provost of Edinburgh (Robert died before the compensation was paid and his niece Rachel received the compensation)

Robert Corse a Glasgow sugar and tobacco merchant (Robert died before compensation was paid)

Sir James Foulis, 3rd Baronet

John Maxwell, Lord Pollok

John Hamilton, 2nd Lord Belhaven and Stenton

Robert Blackwood of Pitreavie

Samuel McLellan, Lord Provost of Edinburgh in 1707 and first MP after the Union.

One Englishman was a member of the Company of Scotland and signatory to the Act, and certainly under modern rules would be deemed to have an unacceptable personal interest and motive in the Act:

John Smith (Chancellor of the Exchequer)

[Thomas]

More to the point, the terms of the Treaty of Union between England and Scotland were passed in 1706. Next year the English commissioners went north and greased Scottish palms to the tune of around half a million sterling, which worked out at about ten bob a Scot. In the event of Scottish independence I hope that Tommy remembers this and does the decent thing and sends us a postal order for his share.

 ::  :roll:



Is there a country on this earth more welded to myths and fairy stories than England?



The idea that England generously reimbursed scotland for the state expenses incurred through this shitty union is yet another laughable invention .The figure of money that England generously reminbursed scotland was far less than the half a million you state borkie.



It was £398 085 , much less than ten bob a scot.



What you forgot to mention though is to offset this generous gift from your country , scotland was saddled with massive amounts of english debt.



Scotland population was around one seventh of the new "british state" in 1707 , so it was made to assume one seventh of Englands then £18 million national debt , and higher taxation imposed by london.



So you do the maths auld yin. More sleight of hand english accounting , where scotland was left far worse off after receiving the english "equivalent judas money " to the tune of over  £2.1 million , when our national debt before hand had been £160 000.



Not only that as lecky wrote in parliamentary history , oft quoted , that scotland was one of the few countries in history whose political representation in( the english) parliament was so grossly ineffective as to not only distort , but absolutely conceal its opinions."



They say beware of greeks bearing gifts.



I say beware of englishmen handing out free money. :thup:( usually someone elses)

[Borchester]

War with the French? That's what we were at in 1706, but it seems to have been quite a regular occurrence over the centuries.  

My grandfather, a highly intelligent man but not greatly interested in politics, marched off to war in 1914 unsure if the UK was at war with Germany or France. Like most Englishmen of his generation his main contact with Germany was through the German street bands of which he greatly approved while war with France seemed natural somehow.



More to the point, the terms of the Treaty of Union between England and Scotland were passed in 1706. Next year the English commissioners went north and greased Scottish palms to the tune of around half a million sterling, which worked out at about ten bob a Scot. In the event of Scottish independence I hope that Tommy remembers this and does the decent thing and sends us a postal order for his share.

[Barry]

War with the French? That's what we were at in 1706, but it seems to have been quite a regular occurrence over the centuries.  

[Borg Refinery]

It is to be the 'worst slump since 1706'. 🤔



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/isabeltogoh/2020/05/07/bank-of-england-warns-of-worst-economic-slump-since-1706/amp/">https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes ... -1706/amp/">https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/isabeltogoh/2020/05/07/bank-of-england-warns-of-worst-economic-slump-since-1706/amp/



What does that actually mean for us..? God only knows.

[Borg Refinery]

Simple solution - tell the credit rating agencies to F@@@ off and default on our foreign debts like Trump wants to do with 3trillion of Asian debt.



(Cat believe I'm endorsing a Trump policy).



We could also mutually write off debts as illustrated in this simulation:



https://anthonyjevans.com/eu-debt-write-off/">https://anthonyjevans.com/eu-debt-write-off/



The credit rating agencies and others are no doubt very pleased about this. The bastards have form for manipulating recessions;



https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/14/moodys-864m-penalty-for-ratings-in-run-up-to-2008-financial-crisis">https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... ial-crisis">https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/14/moodys-864m-penalty-for-ratings-in-run-up-to-2008-financial-crisis



Let's not get started on the big banks. Anyway rant over, it's boiling up the ol' blood.

[Borchester]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52542943">//%20https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52542943%20



So we should be OK.As a general rule no economic forecaster knows hay from a bulls arse.