Elitism, clarse and all that...

[Borchester]

This thread has passed its sell by date anyway

Don't knock it.



The Chinese flu seems to be burning itself out and the protesters have stolen all the TV sets that they need for the moment, so we might well be entering a sadly quiet period of our national life. Class and such provide a sort of iron rations for us to fall back on when there is nothing else happening.

[DeppityDawg]

I was just drawing attention to the hypocrisy of some posters who demand respect but don't hesitate to hurl insults at anyone who doesn't agree with them.

No one has demanded anything of you Javert. The thread was started in response to the comment that class doesn't exist and is just a device to "other" people, and as a discussion about elitist attitudes, and you took part like anyone else. After 25 or so pages, no one has managed to refute that class exists, and if anything it has shown that elitist attitudes are very much a part of peoples thinking, even if it is sometimes unconscious.



We all have our biases and prejudices. Someone on the old forum once said that liberalism was simply the act of recognising them. Where it all goes wrong is when liberals recognises it in everyone but themselves.



This thread has passed its sell by date anyway

[Borg Refinery]

Are you a vampire? Just thinking, their reflection in the mirror is invisible..

[Javert]

Please don't play the victim, you admitted it was fun to wind up Thomas & DD then started bricking it ..and phrased your posts with great condescension.



I'll leave you to it as this is a waste of both of our time.

I don't feel the victim or bricking it.



I was just drawing attention to the hypocrisy of some posters who demand respect but don't hesitate to hurl insults at anyone who doesn't agree with them.

[Javert]

Some irony?  :-P  :-P





Javert is so obsessed with enforcing society's laws and morals that he does not realize he is living by mistaken assumptions—a tragic and ironic flaw in a man who believes so strongly in enforcing what he believes is right. Although Javert is such a stern and inflexible character that it is hard to sympathize with him, he lives with the shame of knowing that his own Gypsy upbringing is not so different from the backgrounds of the men he pursues. He lives his life trying to erase this shame through his strict commitment to upholding the law.



Javert's flaw, however, is that he never stops to question whether the laws themselves are just. In his mind, a man is guilty when the law declares him so. When Valjean finally gives Javert irrefutable proof that a man is not necessarily evil just because the law says he is, Javert is incapable of reconciling this new knowledge with his beliefs.

Javert would not have sympathised with people knocking down statues or questioned whether a legal system that allows a mass murderers to be glorified in front of the descendants of their victims was worth losing much sleep over.



Also I have not enforced anything anywhere.  I just gave my views and opinions, some of which may well be wrong, but I am not planning to change my opinions based on personal comments, straw man arguments or unsubstantiated angry outbursts.  If you give me fact, data, logic, evidence et. I may change my mind.  If you propose concrete plans I can agree or disagree.  



Sending a person to prison for knocking down the statue of the man who murdered their ancestors is something where I can question whether the law is just.

[Borg Refinery]

I think I've posted on here long ago that I work in IT for a global chemical manufacturing organisation.  I didn't go into details because it's not really relevant to this discussion.  



You guys decided wrongly that I was somehow deriding people who are painters and suchlike so are looking for ammunition to say my job is rubbish.  It's irrelevant because my points were general not personal to one person. Even if my job is automated out of existence tomorrow it won't change my arguments nor will it in my opinion change my intrinsic worth as a human.



If you go back you'll see that I never said that there was anything wrong or demeaning about any of these professions.



I just pointed out that there are some jobs that rely wholly or partly on other people being somewhat cash rich and time poor. I didn't mention bricking as an example it was you that brought brickies into the discussion.



I also pointed out that I could paint a few walls if needed and have done so in the past.  This is hardly a boast or arrogant as I suspect a pretty high portion of people in the country have done so.

Please don't play the victim, you admitted it was fun to wind up Thomas & DD then started bricking it ..and phrased your posts with great condescension.



I'll leave you to it as this is a waste of both of our time.

[Javert]

I'll stand up for Javert in one area; he may have privacy concerns, which I can fully respect, and no one has to volunteer any info about themselves that they don't want.

I think I've posted on here long ago that I work in IT for a global chemical manufacturing organisation.  I didn't go into details because it's not really relevant to this discussion.  



You guys decided wrongly that I was somehow deriding people who are painters and suchlike so are looking for ammunition to say my job is rubbish.  It's irrelevant because my points were general not personal to one person. Even if my job is automated out of existence tomorrow it won't change my arguments nor will it in my opinion change my intrinsic worth as a human.



If you go back you'll see that I never said that there was anything wrong or demeaning about any of these professions.



I just pointed out that there are some jobs that rely wholly or partly on other people being somewhat cash rich and time poor. I didn't mention bricking as an example it was you that brought brickies into the discussion.



I also pointed out that I could paint a few walls if needed and have done so in the past.  This is hardly a boast or arrogant as I suspect a pretty high portion of people in the country have done so.

[Borg Refinery]

..And you call him a wind up merchant?  :-P

[Borchester]

Some irony?  :-P  :-P





Javert is so obsessed with enforcing society's laws and morals that he does not realize he is living by mistaken assumptions—a tragic and ironic flaw in a man who believes so strongly in enforcing what he believes is right. Although Javert is such a stern and inflexible character that it is hard to sympathize with him, he lives with the shame of knowing that his own Gypsy upbringing is not so different from the backgrounds of the men he pursues. He lives his life trying to erase this shame through his strict commitment to upholding the law.



Javert's flaw, however, is that he never stops to question whether the laws themselves are just. In his mind, a man is guilty when the law declares him so. When Valjean finally gives Javert irrefutable proof that a man is not necessarily evil just because the law says he is, Javert is incapable of reconciling this new knowledge with his beliefs.

Thank God.



When you said that Baron was a Pikkie my first thought was that one of his horses had kicked him in the head, but now I realise that he has been reading Victor Hugo which is enough to cause anyone's brain to go into meltdown.

[Borg Refinery]

Some irony?  :-P  :-P





Javert is so obsessed with enforcing society's laws and morals that he does not realize he is living by mistaken assumptions—a tragic and ironic flaw in a man who believes so strongly in enforcing what he believes is right. Although Javert is such a stern and inflexible character that it is hard to sympathize with him, he lives with the shame of knowing that his own Gypsy upbringing is not so different from the backgrounds of the men he pursues. He lives his life trying to erase this shame through his strict commitment to upholding the law.



Javert's flaw, however, is that he never stops to question whether the laws themselves are just. In his mind, a man is guilty when the law declares him so. When Valjean finally gives Javert irrefutable proof that a man is not necessarily evil just because the law says he is, Javert is incapable of reconciling this new knowledge with his beliefs.

[Borg Refinery]

I'll stand up for Javert in one area; he may have privacy concerns, which I can fully respect, and no one has to volunteer any info about themselves that they don't want.

[papasmurf]

I think I've gone into the terminal fatigue phase. You know what they say about banging your head against a wall...it feels good when you stop  ::



I give up. We are just going around in an endless circle. We talk (or rather write), but we don't communicate, Javert. You've said it yourself, you've lived a very privileged life. I'm coming more and more to the conclusion that too much of this conversation is simply outside your frame of reference.

Quite.  I only know three people who can't tell anyone what work they do, and I don't think Javert is in that category because if he were he would not be posting on this forum or any other forum.

[DeppityDawg]

I think I've gone into the terminal fatigue phase. You know what they say about banging your head against a wall...it feels good when you stop  ::



I give up. We are just going around in an endless circle. We talk (or rather write), but we don't communicate, Javert. You've said it yourself, you've lived a very privileged life. I'm coming more and more to the conclusion that too much of this conversation is simply outside your frame of reference.

[Borg Refinery]

I was referring to a much earlier comment by Deppity Dawg which might have been on a different thread before it was switched to this one.



He mentioned that working class (white) people don't feel like they are respected in this country.

Is that not true? Are you saying it isn't?

As I said, I am not saying this is the entire issue or even part of it - I am merely repeating what many others have hypothesised, often based on lots of anecdotes and/or based on reports of the exact type of reports that was linked by Deppity earlier in the thread.

https://www.ippr.org/news-and-media/press-releases/majority-of-britons-feeling-a-left-behinda-by-politics-not-just-britaina-s-white-working-class">https://www.ippr.org/news-and-media/pre ... king-class">https://www.ippr.org/news-and-media/press-releases/majority-of-britons-feeling-a-left-behinda-by-politics-not-just-britaina-s-white-working-class

This also seems to be backed up by Deppity's proposal for what investment needs to go into, all of the examples he proposes investment in what you might no doubt call "real" companies that make real things that you can touch and make.  That seems to be consistent with what I mentioned.

So what's your counter proposal?



I made my proposal which you ignored, that both skill sets should be taught so that the widest variety of options are available.



The industries that should be supported are high GVA ones that do something tangible; and we should be export orientated, even if it's an IT business it can't be some loan shark assessment startup.. and not loads of startup financial institutions/other services industry co's that simply prop up the fiscal sector. And no uber crap; instead of that, things that create real long term prospects for towns and help the country..



I presume you agree.

So basically, it seems to me that what I'm saying is not even disagreeing - Deppity proposes building up the "old style" manufacturing industries in the North as a way of building up the GDP and wealth in the region.  I pointed out that this appeared to be what many working class white people want according to a lot of information you can find, including the very same report that was linked here.  Industries where you don't need a PHD in nuclear physics or sociology in order to work there.

But a long apprenticeship which is worth more...



..or a degree in engineering perhaps.

According to Deppity, whether I personally think that's a good idea or not or will work in the long term is irrelevant because I should listen to those working class people and do what they want - therefore that is what I am proposing.

?

If Deppity was saying that he wants all working class white people in the north east to be sent to Oxford University and then become lawyers, then it would be "unbelievable" what I'm saying.

?



What on earth are you talking about?

It's not arrogant to propose that most other people wouldn't instantly understand all the details of a job I've spent 30 years learning.  

So you can't even give a brief description, because everyone here is too stupid to understand..... is what you're saying?



If you're reluctant to tell us re privacy you can stop making excuses and say so.

I don't know how to be a brickie as you pointed out, nor do I know how to put together a diesel engine, nor would I expect to.  I also don't know how to make a Ratatouille but I'm pretty sure I could figure it out in a few hours.

..Really? That's easy as pie.. The first two not so much. I understand we're fick Chavers who can't make a simple set of vegetables though, or understand simple descriptions without misrep'ing them..

I'm willing to bet that there are some posters on this forum who wouldn't be able to do my job no matter how much training they had, but that also there are some jobs I wouldn't be able to do no matter how much training I received.  I don't see that as arrogant.

It didn't sound like it earlier.

It's actually you guys who are Elitist wanting to claim that my IT job is not as good as a "real" job making engines or whatever it might be, or that anyone who works for xyz organisation like the BBC or Guardian, or anyone in a management or administrative role, is useless.  To me that's Elitism - it's just the other way around from what you keep claiming I am, where I have never once implied that any particular job is useless or shouldn't exist.

Quote where I said or implied that then?



Go on?

Also just to mention - I am the one on these threads who is trying to point out that going to Eton private school giver you an Elite advantage in life which may not be deserved according to your innate IQ and capabilities - against some posters who astonishingly seem to believe that going to Eton is just a coincidence as to whether you succeed in life or not.  I'd hardly call my side of the argument there Elitist.

No but you have been incredibly condescending.



In the Khan thread, you say you posted purely to wind up Thomaa and Dawg?



It doesn't work on me I'm afraid Javva. You see I too know a thing or two about IT, in fact many years ago I spent some time learning php and ruby. I know a fair bit about computers beyond that too. Not as much as you- I don't doubt that for a second, but you really shouldn't treat people like idiots.

By the way, just so you know I feel very respected on this forum, what with being insulted all the time and being told I'm a lefty liberal elite, feck off, etc etc.  That's real showing respect that is.

You admitted you posted purely to wind up Thomas and dawg.



What do you expect from them if you do that? When I wind up Thomas I do it in a way so he knows I'm clearly joking and just messing, whereas you like to really condescend and if you're going to do that... at least have some humour about it.

[Javert]

Fair enough.



My experience of AI and AI developers from the first glimmers of 'fuzzy ligic' and non von Neumann architecture in tbe late 80s right up to automated vehicles today is all smoke, mirrors and hype.



I suppose if they were to get a grip on reality we might see something eventually. But from those I have met, I doubt it myself. But time will tell. Fortunately I doubt I will be alive when the tech is allowed....

Yes well, if you work in IT you figure out that there are certain buzz words that come along like "Client/Server" "Cloud", "Digital", "AI" and so on.  



You figure out that about 95% of what these things are doing is marketing - repackaging what companies can already deliver with a new buzzword to make it seem like it's some kind of brand new magic that nobody ever thought of before.  In reality it's just the same old stuff, repackaged with some new acronyms to try to fool executive boards into buying something "new".



But - in some cases there certainly is something behind these things.  AI certainly will deliver some benefits in some areas in the future, but it's not going to replace very job, so I guess I agree there.



Also to point out, the manufacturing site where I am based, had about 3000 people there in the 1950s.  Today it has about 200, whilst making hardly any less product.  This is in an traditionally industrial part of townAs such, you might expect that the employment in the area has gone down by 94%, but of course it hasn't.  Employment before the Covid-10 crisis hit was apparently running at 95% or more (although of course the government is probably playing with the numbers there also).  There is an element where we don't know the result because as jobs are automated out of existence, other jobs and options will arrive.