Analysis: Labour's electoral mountain

[Thomas]

Yes. Again because I was forced to incorporate to continue to pay my bill's (nobody would insure a sole trader working on nuclear power and nuclear weapons) I understand the holes in ways many who have not done this wont.

Fuoughing a company director means they are totally unable to do any work. Sole traders get screwed in different ways but again they can't dobanything at all if they were able to get that status. Which is insane.

The biggest scandal as far as I am concerned is the fact only those who defaulted on their tax and vat obligations got help with them (interest free payment holidays) and the next is the fact banks refused to hand out the free / low interest loans the chancellor bribed them to provide, preferring instead to.rip business off as always

And I see no letup in card payment fees now everyone I'd forced to use them, which increases a banks takings many fold. A bank forced to.take cash deposits only got to hit the trader once. Now they take a piece of every sale. f**king scandal.

Not sure about that john.

95% of the uks 5 million self employed were able to access the uk governments schemes. Many folk have moaned about johnson and the uk /scottish /welsh governments behaviour and coping with the various health aspect of this pandemic , but the vast majority have been thankfull and supportive of the help dished out in terms of the billions of pounds handed out in various grants , schemes and loans.

[johnofgwent]

This chap took that bull by the horns. He compared the thousands of one man and a van plumbers electricians plasterer you name it who today are forced to run their own show lease their own Van's keep their own accounts and pay VAT directly to the thousands of similar artisans formerly employed as council direct labour in the old days.

I thought he had a point. I certainly didnt WANT to be a company managing director I just wanted to carry on inventing better ways to kill people just as i had before my employer went tits. In a less extreme example perhaps this chap said these craftsmen were not 'in business on their own account' because they wanted to be but because political ideology had forced them to do it to keep putting bread on the table.

He went on to say these people should be viewed as the labour party's natural supporters and it should be setting out policy and ideology that appeals to them...

A lot of one man band self-employed have been very badly burned by the Covid-19 pandemic and have dropped three the big holes in the safety net emergency measures.
I cannot see Labour taking advantage of that because there is a big scandal brewing about Starmer and the entire shadow front bench.
I suspect the right wing press are scared to make comment about it because it would blow the long campaign of lies and propaganda against Corbyn and Labour out of the water and show them to be the liars and nasty propagandists that they are.
(No I am not going to detail it.)

Yes. Again because I was forced to incorporate to continue to pay my bill's (nobody would insure a sole trader working on nuclear power and nuclear weapons) I understand the holes in ways many who have not done this wont.

Fuoughing a company director means they are totally unable to do any work. Sole traders get screwed in different ways but again they cant dobanything at all if they were able to get that status. Which is insane.

The biggest scandal as far as I am concerned is the fact only those who defaulted on their tax and vat obligations got help with them (interest free payment holidays) and the next is the fact banks refused to hand out the free / low interest loans the chancellor bribed them to provide, preferring instead to.rip business off as always

And I see no letup in card payment fees now everyone I'd forced to use them, which increases a banks takings many fold. A bank forced to.take cash deposits only got to hit the trader once. Now they take a piece of every sale. Fucking scandal.

[Thomas]

The big thing there is .Politics have changed, to such a degree that the real question is . Are the Labour Party more than moderately relevant to the present political landscape in the U.K.?  I think not, they can not even please all of those with a socialist bone in their bodies. In many respects what I see in Scotland, reflects at least in part, some of Labours basic problems, not just recent mistakes .  As we have seen in England , and Scotland, mild slow moving socialism, ends up rejected. Yet whole hearted socialism is considered in many quarters, even some with a socialist bone, as next to treason.So were does that leave them.?
Scotland seems to have fallen back on its national identity , embraced some mild socialism, but  satisfied its self that , as it is wrapped in its national flag , that's fine.
The problem for Labour in England, as in Scotland, is not being seen as anything more than an opposition , that can only produce an alternative if all else is lost. It doesn't have the answers, it doesn't have any cures. It's only use has, and will be , in England, at least ,is to be a sticking plaster. As it's internationalist socialism, doesn't satisfy ,what are quiet moderate nationalist feelings in England, And it's reliance on union money and support is now for many a massive turn off. It just becomes more and more out of tune with the electorate.

Sounds good to me.

Labour are not and never have been an internationally socialist party. Thats another argument though.

In short , labour are utterly irrelevant in modern uk politics . To have a chance of giving answers , you have to at least try and understand the problems , and as we have seen , labour simply carp on about irrelevant subjects and seem intent on picking the opposite side in every argument to the public mood while demanding the public change their opinion to suit labours view.

[Good old]

Couldn't agree more Thomas,the sense of entitlement allied to the bewilderment at their demise and the attempts to apportion blame anywhere but their long term abandonment of their core vote is apparent to everybody but themselves,perhaps the truth is beginning to dawn.

I dont think they will learn cormwell , certainly not in the near future.

They are still in the "why wont the stupid public listen to what we are saying " mode , and of course the election of starmer to me shows they havent learned.

Politics has changed  , but labour havent changed with it.

The big thing there is .Politics have changed, to such a degree that the real question is . Are the Labour Party more than moderately relevant to the present political landscape in the U.K.?  I think not, they can not even please all of those with a socialist bone in their bodies. In many respects what I see in Scotland, reflects at least in part, some of Labours basic problems, not just recent mistakes .  As we have seen in England , and Scotland, mild slow moving socialism, ends up rejected. Yet whole hearted socialism is considered in many quarters, even some with a socialist bone, as next to treason.So were does that leave them.?
Scotland seems to have fallen back on its national identity , embraced some mild socialism, but  satisfied its self that , as it is wrapped in its national flag , that's fine.
The problem for Labour in England, as in Scotland, is not being seen as anything more than an opposition , that can only produce an alternative if all else is lost. It doesn't have the answers, it doesn't have any cures. It's only use has, and will be , in England, at least ,is to be a sticking plaster. As it's internationalist socialism, doesn't satisfy ,what are quiet moderate nationalist feelings in England, And it's reliance on union money and support is now for many a massive turn off. It just becomes more and more out of tune with the electorate.

[papasmurf]

This chap took that bull by the horns. He compared the thousands of one man and a van plumbers electricians plasterer you name it who today are forced to run their own show lease their own Van's keep their own accounts and pay VAT directly to the thousands of similar artisans formerly employed as council direct labour in the old days.

I thought he had a point. I certainly didnt WANT to be a company managing director I just wanted to carry on inventing better ways to kill people just as i had before my employer went tits. In a less extreme example perhaps this chap said these craftsmen were not 'in business on their own account' because they wanted to be but because political ideology had forced them to do it to keep putting bread on the table.

He went on to say these people should be viewed as the labour party's natural supporters and it should be setting out policy and ideology that appeals to them...

A lot of one man band self-employed have been very badly burned by the Covid-19 pandemic and have dropped three the big holes in the safety net emergency measures.
I cannot see Labour taking advantage of that because there is a big scandal brewing about Starmer and the entire shadow front bench.
I suspect the right wing press are scared to make comment about it because it would blow the long campaign of lies and propaganda against Corbyn and Labour out of the water and show them to be the liars and nasty propagandists that they are.
(No I am not going to detail it.)

[Thomas]

I dont know of you remember but a few years ago the previous forum had a pist from someone asking if we would like to download and review a policy paper he intended to put to the labour party.

I think the post got a lukewarm reception but I did download the pdf and I was rather pleasantly surprised.

I know the classic criticism of the labour voter is they vote labour because grandad did, but that overlooks why grandad did.

This chap took that bull by the horns. He compared the thousands of one man and a van plumbers electricians plasterer you name it who today are forced to run their own show lease their own Van's keep their own accounts and pay VAT directly to the thousands of similar artisans formerly employed as council direct labour in the old days.

I thought he had a point. I certainly didnt WANT to be a company managing director I just wanted to carry on inventing better ways to kill people just as i had before my employer went tits. In a less extreme example perhaps this chap said these craftsmen were not 'in business on their own account' because they wanted to be but because political ideology had forced them to do it to keep putting bread on the table.

He went on to say these people should be viewed as the labour party's natural supporters and it should be setting out policy and ideology that appeals to them...

I dont think he got very far in putting his points to Corbyns NEC but there we are.

Of course with Thornberry making her views on these people clear it was obvious they were going to stay reviled.

But I thought it was Thatchers wooing Essex white van man (as in a driver of a white van
....) that got tories elected in former labour areas giving her number ten ...

I think i do remember john , and again good post on some of the many reasons why labour are having problems.

The political landscape has changed drastically , but labour havent changed with it.

All they seem to offer up over the last ten years is either a return to 1970`s marxism under corbyn or a return to the noughties blairism. Theres nothing new , no forward thinking or vision , no progression , just stagnation.

While the tories take advantage of brexit , the snp scot indy and the changing face of english and scottish politics , labour are stuck in the past.

I mean their stance on brexit over the last four years which culminated in their humping last december was one of the most farcical political positions of a major political party i have ever seen , with an obvious leaver in charge of a remain party trying to sit on the fence against the public will in england and wales on brexit.

Im still in shock at their political ineptitude.

[Thomas]

Couldn't agree more Thomas,the sense of entitlement allied to the bewilderment at their demise and the attempts to apportion blame anywhere but their long term abandonment of their core vote is apparent to everybody but themselves,perhaps the truth is beginning to dawn.

I dont think they will learn cormwell , certainly not in the near future.

They are still in the "why wont the stupid public listen to what we are saying " mode , and of course the election of starmer to me shows they havent learned.

Politics has changed  , but labour havent changed with it.

[johnofgwent]

Boris just destroyed a massed attempt to deny the will of the united kingdom. It will be a long, long time before the leader of that rebellion is handed the keys to number ten, if they ever are.

Totally agree john. Only a party as politically inept as labour would elect someone  seen as public enemy number one with his attempts to thwart the will of the english and welsh people over brexit , as leader.

Talk about commiting suicide.

I dont know of you remember but a few years ago the previous forum had a pist from someone asking if we would like to download and review a policy paper he intended to put to the labour party.

I think the post got a lukewarm reception but I did download the pdf and I was rather pleasantly surprised.

I know the classic criticism of the labour voter is they vote labour because grandad did, but that overlooks why grandad did.

This chap took that bull by the horns. He compared the thousands of one man and a van plumbers electricians plasterer you name it who today are forced to run their own show lease their own Van's keep their own accounts and pay VAT directly to the thousands of similar artisans formerly employed as council direct labour in the old days.

I thought he had a point. I certainly didnt WANT to be a company managing director I just wanted to carry on inventing better ways to kill people just as i had before my employer went tits. In a less extreme example perhaps this chap said these craftsmen were not 'in business on their own account' because they wanted to be but because political ideology had forced them to do it to keep putting bread on the table.

He went on to say these people should be viewed as the labour party's natural supporters and it should be setting out policy and ideology that appeals to them...

I dont think he got very far in putting his points to Corbyns NEC but there we are.

Of course with Thornberry making her views on these people clear it was obvious they were going to stay reviled.

But I thought it was Thatchers wooing Essex white van man (as in a driver of a white van
....) that got tories elected in former labour areas giving her number ten ...

[Good old]

Analysis: Labour's electoral mountain

A review into the party's performance at the polls says woes did not start and end with Jeremy Corbyn.

Source: Analysis: Labour's electoral mountain

A fairly solid review ,even  if predictable. Of course Labour have made mistakes, they lost elections didn't they?
You can learn from mistakes . Maybe the present leadership will. According to the electorate Corbyn, was just another mistake ,repeating the mistakes made at various times throughout the parties  history.

[cromwell]

Analysis: Labour's electoral mountain

A review into the party's performance at the polls says woes did not start and end with Jeremy Corbyn.

Source: Analysis: Labour's electoral mountain

Good article.

Its refreshing to see finally  that some  recognise corbyn isnt the architect of labours woes , despite what some in the party would have us believe.

Labour have a multitude of problems rather than any single issue. For much of my lifetime , they have arrogantly treated scotland , northern england and wales as their own personal fiefdoms that they think they have a right to hold , taking electoral success as a given in these areas , then ignoring them ,  while concentrating on the tory held marginals.

Im thinking along the lines of the famous "feeble fifty" labour mps of scottish electoral history , and current labour politicians talking of the SNP holding  "their " seats.

Its in part this arrogant attitude , along with their absolute failure to come to terms with never mind deal with constitutional issues such as scottish indy and brexit , as well as being on the opposite side of public opinion on many issues , that has helped contribute to their massive demise.

As forum members like cromwell and deppity dawg will tell you as former labour voters like myself , being out of touch with the northern english on things like brexit , or being seen as opposing the white english working class and abandoning them so they can concentrate on chasing the ethnic vote seems to be part of their many problems in england.

In scotland , they have simply completely imploded over scottish indy , with the SNP mopping up most of their former vote over the last decade , and many of the unionists that remained flocking to the tories or liberals  , seen as the better bet in keeping the union together.

Constantly bleating about fighting inequality or we built the nhs and all the other never ending old tropes while being in bits over scottish indy or brexit is nothing short of political suicide.

The very fact the blairite faction in the party are back in charge , with the election of starmer , shows to me anyway , labour have learned absolutely zero lessons , and continue to dig their own grave.

Couldn't agree more Thomas,the sense of entitlement allied to the bewilderment at their demise and the attempts to apportion blame anywhere but their long term abandonment of their core vote is apparent to everybody but themselves,perhaps the truth is beginning to dawn.

[Thomas]

Boris just destroyed a massed attempt to deny the will of the united kingdom. It will be a long, long time before the leader of that rebellion is handed the keys to number ten, if they ever are.

Totally agree john. Only a party as politically inept as labour would elect someone  seen as public enemy number one with his attempts to thwart the will of the english and welsh people over brexit , as leader.

Talk about commiting suicide.

[Thomas]

Analysis: Labour's electoral mountain

A review into the party's performance at the polls says woes did not start and end with Jeremy Corbyn.

Source: Analysis: Labour's electoral mountain

Good article.

Its refreshing to see finally  that some  recognise corbyn isnt the architect of labours woes , despite what some in the party would have us believe.

Labour have a multitude of problems rather than any single issue. For much of my lifetime , they have arrogantly treated scotland , northern england and wales as their own personal fiefdoms that they think they have a right to hold , taking electoral success as a given in these areas , then ignoring them ,  while concentrating on the tory held marginals.

Im thinking along the lines of the famous "feeble fifty" labour mps of scottish electoral history , and current labour politicians talking of the SNP holding  "their " seats.

Its in part this arrogant attitude , along with their absolute failure to come to terms with never mind deal with constitutional issues such as scottish indy and brexit , as well as being on the opposite side of public opinion on many issues , that has helped contribute to their massive demise.

As forum members like cromwell and deppity dawg will tell you as former labour voters like myself , being out of touch with the northern english on things like brexit , or being seen as opposing the white english working class and abandoning them so they can concentrate on chasing the ethnic vote seems to be part of their many problems in england.

In scotland , they have simply completely imploded over scottish indy , with the SNP mopping up most of their former vote over the last decade , and many of the unionists that remained flocking to the tories or liberals  , seen as the better bet in keeping the union together.

Constantly bleating about fighting inequality or we built the nhs and all the other never ending old tropes while being in bits over scottish indy or brexit is nothing short of political suicide.

The very fact the blairite faction in the party are back in charge , with the election of starmer , shows to me anyway , labour have learned absolutely zero lessons , and continue to dig their own grave.

[johnofgwent]

In reality the party's woes started the day michael foot surrendered so far to the marxist left the SDP blew the explosive bolts on the escape pod.

Or possibly the day those militant left behind that severe turn to port were allowed to join the party.

I cannot myself recall an occasion on which an opposition won a general election. As far as I can think back the only time there was a change of government, it was because the party in power lost the election and power was handed to the opposition as a result.

Boris just destroyed a massed attempt to deny the will of the united kingdom. It will be a long, long time before the leader of that rebellion is handed the keys to number ten, if they ever are.

[papasmurf]

Analysis: Labour's electoral mountain

A review into the party's performance at the polls says woes did not start and end with Jeremy Corbyn.

Source: Analysis: Labour's electoral mountain

The woes started after Labour core vote realised that Tony Blair and New Labour were Tory mark 2 and 5 million of the core vote left.

[GBNews]

Analysis: Labour's electoral mountain

A review into the party's performance at the polls says woes did not start and end with Jeremy Corbyn.

Source: Analysis: Labour's electoral mountain