The Academics Say BOTH sides think Violence against MP's is worth it

[Sheepy]

It would be interesting to see what fate awaited "your party" if it were launched today.



As I reckon most of the regulars on here already know from my previous posts in it, back in 2005 Peter Keller of yougov "fame" launched a party whose main commitment was to ask the electorate which way to vote on bills and where they failed to follow the directions given, to explain themselves and face a no confidence vote and resign if their explanation of their actions failed to satisfy.



We (I say we because I joined the party) put up two candidates and polled worse than the BNP and the Monster Raving Looneys.



The people were not (then) ready to direct MPs



I do wonder what would the thoughts of the people be on this today !!!!

I would take a guess that with the downfall of belief in politicians and the votes to uphold a referendum by the electorate,it would gather pace.It has even been proven to work and created a much happier nation.With even the staunchest believers in left and right politics struggling to win back any ground on the back of so called representative democracy.

[Paulus de B]

But how do 45m voters draft a bill?...

That's the question.  Referendums like the many that the Irish have had aren't difficult, because the voters are asked whether they consent to something the government wants to do.  The government can then go ahead with the legislation or drop it as appropriate.  But the EU referendum told the government to do something that it didn't want to do; the government committed to obeying their orders lost its majority, MPs couldn't resist the chance to thwart the popular will, and the rest is - or eventually will be - history.  Some countries do manage to actually base legislation on popular decisions, so it must be doable, but Britain went into the referendum without any experience or agreed mechanism for doing that.  As a consequence, there's been a catalogue of screw-ups.  I suppose we'll know better next time .

[johnofgwent]

Firstly you need a petition with enough signatures,then you need a vote with a majority of people in agreement,then it gets written into law.You mainly need a mature electorate who is mature and informed enough to accept democracy,which at the moment we don't have,because people who feel their power is on the wane,are fighting us tooth and nail.

It would be interesting to see what fate awaited "your party" if it were launched today.



As I reckon most of the regulars on here already know from my previous posts in it, back in 2005 Peter Keller of yougov "fame" launched a party whose main commitment was to ask the electorate which way to vote on bills and where they failed to follow the directions given, to explain themselves and face a no confidence vote and resign if their explanation of their actions failed to satisfy.



We (I say we because I joined the party) put up two candidates and polled worse than the BNP and the Monster Raving Looneys.



The people were not (then) ready to direct MPs



I do wonder what would the thoughts of the people be on this today !!!!

[BeElBeeBub]

Well I did say you needed enough votes and brains.

But how do 45m voters draft a bill?



Do we have a wiki page and anyone can amend it?

[papasmurf]

The thing is, your lot can't really say they are being denied democracy, so they have little reason to be upset, whereas the leave contingent can argue exactly that their ballot box win is being denied, something which often leads to violence, just examine history.

Personally I suspect post whatever Brexit happens it will be the leavers who get fractious and violent, because of the ensuing disaster.

The only unknown being how long that disaster lasts.

(I have the space in my front garden prepared for the worthless inshore fishing to go as an ornament.) (Not a joke.)

[Barry]

On the other hand we've had 3 remain marches with several orders of magnitude more people and no major trouble to speak of.



So it is possible to hold a protest march without violence.

The thing is, your lot can't really say they are being denied democracy, so they have little reason to be upset, whereas the leave contingent can argue exactly that their ballot box win is being denied, something which often leads to violence, just examine history.

[BeElBeeBub]

Yes the EU have been very generous in extending our misery in the club for even longer.

I will protest if we are finally told that we are remaining. Of course, I will not riot. However, I know how crowd mentality works, so even amongst people who intend to protest lawfully, it only takes a spark for things to get out of control.

When we do leave, (Beelzebub) BeElBeBubb - very appropriate association with Baal.  ::  Are you likely to take any action, or have you already been on the remainer and "anti no deal" marches?



As you say, almost certain we won't leave on 31st October, except...

Glad you got the reference.....



As you say, groups can dissolve into trouble, though I have to point out Leave assemblies have a track record of that happening with only a few hundred - not entirely your fault it only takes the SYL/EDL/FLA to turn up and it all kicks off (though you do have to wonder about your cause if it attracts those Muppets).



On the other hand we've had 3 remain marches with several orders of magnitude more people and no major trouble to speak of.



So it is possible to hold a protest march without violence.



It doesn't help that Leave politicians like Francois talk about the country "exploding".





As for action, I've been on marches (twice and it's a 2½ hour drice to London) and would probably go on a few more, plus pushing for electoral reform and a different MP

[Sheepy]

So who writes the actual laws/bills in your system?



It's all well and good to have a petition and vote to "ban single use plastics" (for example)



But how (and by who) does that intention become a law?



You can't just write "ban single use plastics" in the statute book.  



- What is the definition of a single use plastic?

- What are the exemptions?

- The penalties?  

- Who polices this?

- Who funds all of the above?

Well I did say you needed enough votes and brains.

[Barry]

Yes the EU have been very generous in extending our misery in the club for even longer.

I will protest if we are finally told that we are remaining. Of course, I will not riot. However, I know how crowd mentality works, so even amongst people who intend to protest lawfully, it only takes a spark for things to get out of control.

When we do leave, (Beelzebub) BeElBeBubb - very appropriate association with Baal.  ::  Are you likely to take any action, or have you already been on the remainer and "anti no deal" marches?



As you say, almost certain we won't leave on 31st October, except...

[BeElBeeBub]

Back a bit more on topic (and refering to the thread on the old site)....



Now it looks almost (barring the EU not offering to extend) definite that we aren't going to leave the EU on the 31st October, how many here are going to participate in the predicted riots?  :fpigs:

[BeElBeeBub]

Firstly you need a petition with enough signatures,then you need a vote with a majority of people in agreement,then it gets written into law.You mainly need a mature electorate who is mature and informed enough to accept democracy,which at the moment we don't have,because people who feel their power is on the wane,are fighting us tooth and nail.

So who writes the actual laws/bills in your system?



It's all well and good to have a petition and vote to "ban single use plastics" (for example)



But how (and by who) does that intention become a law?



You can't just write "ban single use plastics" in the statute book.  



- What is the definition of a single use plastic?

- What are the exemptions?

- The penalties?  

- Who polices this?

- Who funds all of the above?

[Sheepy]

Sorry I thought that was what you were advocating. So what would be the difference?

Firstly you need a petition with enough signatures,then you need a vote with a majority of people in agreement,then it gets written into law.You mainly need a mature electorate who is mature and informed enough to accept democracy,which at the moment we don't have,because people who feel their power is on the wane,are fighting us tooth and nail.

[BeElBeeBub]

The more I find out about this poll, the more I suspect it was designed to give a certain answer to create publicity.  I don't think it can be interpreted to mean that most people support the use of violence in support of their own political aims.

I think the reporting of it (possibly deliberately) is skewed.



Whilst I think there are some on both sides that regard *serious* violence (eg poll tax riots, Jo Cox etc) as a "price worth paying" for their preferred outcome i think the majority don't want that outcome or even think it is likely.



The caveat is the threat to MPs, the rhetoric has ramped up (mainly driven by the Leave politicians like BJ, Francois, NF, JRM, IDS etc) - "traitors", "people Vs parliament", "collaborators" etc has seriously upper the risk to remainer MPs.



You only have to look at the hate mail and threats that some MPs (mainly women it has to be said) have received and how the language tracks what people like the PM have said to see this.

[BeElBeeBub]

And welcome  BeElBeeBub  :hattip

Thank you!

[Javert]

The more I find out about this poll, the more I suspect it was designed to give a certain answer to create publicity.  I don't think it can be interpreted to mean that most people support the use of violence in support of their own political aims.