Church of England to downsize

[johnofgwent]

The church which I belonged to as a younger man found itself forced to downsize and indeed join with another in the name nconformist tradition.


I saw no problem.


In fact the church has continued to shrink. The building to which my in-laws to be took Moira every year for the midnight Christmas service (and me too after our engagement) is now a Sikh temple. Two others are carpet warehouses and two others in the hands of religious fundamentalists.


It is the way of things. If the church grows it will no doubt acquire other buildings.

[T00ts]

Dead in Christ, means dead people who are saved. A distinction already exists, as opposed to the people who have died and are NOT in Christ.
I would never rely on that verse to suggest a person is safe not to accept Christ prior to death!
Are you really so sure from that verse that the unsaved have a second chance?

Even the scholars have different interpretations and they are quite wide.
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_peter/3-19.htm

I don't profess to understand that verse, which is why I looked it up in the commentary.

My understanding is that those who have not heard the Gospel will get taught in the Spirit world and still have the choice. Jesus visited them before His ascension and said He had others to see when He left His disciples. I relate this to the other Jewish tribes that scattered. There are teachers in the Spirit world teaching.the Gospel. A conscious decision to deny Christ in life having learned what they are really denying may be different, but over-riding that is the grace of God and His great love for His children and Jesus' atonement. I have relations etc who did not believe in this life but then again I don't believe that they fully understood just what it was really all about. Just as they were not convinced of life after death. I asked them to remember our conversations after they crossed. They thought I was joking! Logic confirms to me that all the people of other faiths who have never had the chance to follow Christ must have a further chance. God would never be unfair. To live wordly while knowing it to be wrong, not repenting and assuming another chance is probably risky, to be a good person with no chance to be properly born again is a completely different scenario.

Forgive this if it offends - if you have doubts I have great confidence in asking our Father in Heaven.  If you ask in real faith you will find your answer. It may come in a scripture, in something that is said or just a feeling. I trust that more than any scholars with questionable faith. I know that some will scoff at that but people of faith have  always had a tough ride.

[Barry]

Can you give me the reference?

I have found it.
The ref I have is 1 Thessalonians 4. Surely it's self explanatory I don't see why you think it discriminates differently from what I have said all along. Dead in Christ doesn't specify died, God/Jesus is very clear they do not try o confuse us.  The Gospel is very simple.

Dead in Christ, means dead people who are saved. A distinction already exists, as opposed to the people who have died and are NOT in Christ.

1 Peter 3: 19

I would never rely on that verse to suggest a person is safe not to accept Christ prior to death!
Are you really so sure from that verse that the unsaved have a second chance?

Even the scholars have different interpretations and they are quite wide.
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_peter/3-19.htm

I don't profess to understand that verse, which is why I looked it up in the commentary.

[T00ts]

Here's a question?
What does, "The dead in Christ will rise first" mean? Then you will know that there is already a sheep/goat distinction.

Can you give me the reference?

I have found it.
The ref I have is 1 Thessalonians 4. Surely it's self explanatory I don't see why you think it discriminates differently from what I have said all along. Dead in Christ doesn't specify died, God/Jesus is very clear they do not try o confuse us.  The Gospel is very simple.

[T00ts]

Not in my Bible, I'm afraid I can't find that.

1 Peter 3: 19

[johnofgwent]

God seems to have managed very well without money for a very long time, whereas the Church of England has always wanted a few quid since 1534. It will soon be 500 years since the evil Henry VIII did that!

The organisation Henry parted company with, of course, preached celibacy to avoid the expense of widows and children requiring support from the contributions ...

[cromwell]

Not in my Bible, I'm afraid I can't find that.

Is it some Mormon teaching?

Here's a question?
What does, "The dead in Christ will rise first" mean? Then you will know that there is already a sheep/goat distinction.
I'm glad Cromwell started this thread. He'll probably be along in a sec to talk about goats.

Well I'd said my piece and was leaving it there but since you mention it goats no but just wondered where Sheeps come in to all this

[Barry]

Sorry I can't resist - If those passed over do not get another chance to accept the Gospel why did Jesus claim that He went to preach to those of the Spirit world?

Not in my Bible, I'm afraid I can't find that.

Is it some Mormon teaching?

Here's a question?
What does, "The dead in Christ will rise first" mean? Then you will know that there is already a sheep/goat distinction.
I'm glad Cromwell started this thread. He'll probably be along in a sec to talk about goats.

[T00ts]

I know we are apart on your catholic belief that we have another opportunity to repent after death. I'll leave that there.

Sorry I can't resist - If those passed over do not get another chance to accept the Gospel why did Jesus claim that He went to preach to those of the Spirit world?

[T00ts]

I know we are apart on your catholic belief that we have another opportunity to repent after death. I'll leave that there.

That's not so 'catholic' as long as you don't mean Catholic.  I am far from that!

Study Galatians 5:18

But that's referring to the law on circumcision. Some did not think that the Gospel should be taught to the gentiles and Paul was pointing out that the Gospel is for everyone no matter race or faith.

I mean all those who repent, trust in Christ, - they are born again.

Ah yes ok agreed.

[Barry]

Looks as though we are really far apart. The truth is constant and what Jesus said then is true to this day. Nothing changes, but administering/spreading the truth in order to cover the whole world as He instructed means we must utilize those inventions and knowledge that we have gained since. At some point all must receive the Gospel in order to accept or discard it - ie our free will - we can't pick and choose who shall hear. God wants all of us to return to Him. Tithing? Wasn't Jesus a Jew? God laid down the law of tithing and Jesus fulfilled the prophesies but didn't change God's law. Because we are Gentiles are we exempt from God's laws?

I know we are apart on your catholic belief that we have another opportunity to repent after death. I'll leave that there.

I don't understand what you mean when you say 'We are under the Spirit, not the law.'

Study Galatians 5:18

I don't quite get this either 'The true church is made up of those disciples redeemed through Christ's salvation.' Do you mean all those who accept the Gospel?

I mean all those who repent, trust in Christ, - they are born again.

[T00ts]

The true church is made up of those disciples redeemed through Christ's salvation.
There are many works, but if people do not hear the word, what is the point of the works? They would remain loast.
Tithes were for the Jews.
We are under the Spirit, not the law.
God doesn't have any houses, as such. The true church worships in spirit and in truth. He made that clear to the woman at the well.

Proclaiming the gospel was Jesus' instruction to his disciples. Last verses of Matthew 28.
It wasn't to have tea dances and sewing circles.

Looks as though we are really far apart. The truth is constant and what Jesus said then is true to this day. Nothing changes, but administering/spreading the truth in order to cover the whole world as He instructed means we must utilize those inventions and knowledge that we have gained since. At some point all must receive the Gospel in order to accept or discard it - ie our free will - we can't pick and choose who shall hear. God wants all of us to return to Him. Tithing? Wasn't Jesus a Jew? God laid down the law of tithing and Jesus fulfilled the prophesies but didn't change God's law. Because we are Gentiles are we exempt from God's laws?

I don't understand what you mean when you say 'We are under the Spirit, not the law.'

Tea and sewing circles as you put it are as much for social welfare as for worship when carried out as part of God's work. I do agree that many Churches have wandered from the real truth in how they are administered and how they conduct themselves, that is not to say they have no truth. All faiths have some of the truth.

ps I don't quite get this either 'The true church is made up of those disciples redeemed through Christ's salvation.' Do you mean all those who accept the Gospel?

[Barry]

Really is that all?
I can only partially agree. What are you calling the true church? I would redirect you with 'faith without works' is not enough. Christ's Church was most definitely tithed so what other than His church can be 'true'?

The true church is made up of those disciples redeemed through Christ's salvation.
There are many works, but if people do not hear the word, what is the point of the works? They would remain loast.
Tithes were for the Jews.

In God's eyes we are all equal so tithe for God's use is the same for all. What we charitably do outside of that is up to the individual.

We are under the Spirit, not the law.

I do have problems with some of this. Would you deny God His house? Haven't the scriptures told us that the finest materials have always been used to build God's houses? Didn't Jesus lose His temper when He saw His Father's House being defiled by the money exchangers? He understood that His Father had his own house.

Salary is another question. Where someone works full time to administer the day to day office work then they are worthy of their hire. Why wouldn't they be? Otherwise it is an honour to serve God so should be donated through faith. Presumably Matthew, once a tax collector, was the first financier of Jesus' Church.

God doesn't have any houses, as such. The true church worships in spirit and in truth. He made that clear to the woman at the well.

Proclaiming the gospel was Jesus' instruction to his disciples. Last verses of Matthew 28.
It wasn't to have tea dances and sewing circles.

[T00ts]

The work of the Church is to preach the Word of God.

Really is that all?
I can only partially agree. What are you calling the true church? I would redirect you with 'faith without works' is not enough. Christ's Church was most definitely tithed so what other than His church can be 'true'?

In fact, the rich should be giving more than 10%, but I'm not really sure who they should be giving it to. Perhaps to the people preaching the whole Word of God.

In God's eyes we are all equal so tithe for God's use is the same for all. What we charitably do outside of that is up to the individual.

The true church is not a business, it should be modelled on scripture. The organised mainstream churches are not .
The true church is growing in loose groups, meeting in houses and small places around the world.
Small villages and communities will miss their churches, mostly as a loss of a community centre.

I think the Archbishop earns in the region of £70k which isn't huge, but their head of investments earns much more:

I do have problems with some of this. Would you deny God His house? Haven't the scriptures told us that the finest materials have always been used to build God's houses? Didn't Jesus lose His temper when He saw His Father's House being defiled by the money exchangers? He understood that His Father had his own house.

Salary is another question. Where someone works full time to administer the day to day office work then they are worthy of their hire. Why wouldn't they be? Otherwise it is an honour to serve God so should be donated through faith. Presumably Matthew, once a tax collector, was the first financier of Jesus' Church.

[cromwell]

With what objective

Not being an absolute tosser?

Well I am human.......I think