New Years honours, background checks.

[Borchester]

Its  a question of  efficiency

No it ain't but it is a major weakness of the left. It does not want a new heaven and a new earth or the new Jerusalem built on a shining hill. It wants the Supreme Leader who will give it a kick in the balls if it steps out of line. The result is that the old, largely self reliant working class is leaving the party and is being replaced by middle class graduates with degrees in grievance studies and who go on BLM marches because they rather fancy the idea of some big black chap giving them a jolly good thrashing

[Good old]

No i dont. Another pitifull attempt at a dodge.I have made it explicitly clear to forum members such as dynamis im not some mooncalf left wing idealistic clown like many in the labour party who vote for politicians or parties like the snp because i think they are whiter than white.

..but when labour stand , not once or twice , but constantly on platforms to enact the abolition of the lords , you expect them to honour their manifesto promises , and when they dont , the results as i keep telling you are predictable.

You trouble is you want to pass off the tories , westmisnter , nationalism etc as bad , while try and portray labour as good , everything will be all right if only the public vote them in .

without trying to pass themsleves off as whiter than white , what exactly have labour have left ?

The poor and oppressed?

We invented the nhs!

Tories bad.?

Take that away , and you have an empty shell full of nothing .

as do you. Labour are a british nationalist party , and thats fine too.

Another example of how labour operate. labour says their nationalsim is good  , all other bad.

Dont you see how puerile this arguemtns is , and why voters laugh at you?###

why is it easier?

Its harder to vote snp than the mainstream british parties , who have the power of the british state behind them. The very political system labour endorses is specifically desgined for the two party british state .

So what are you talking about?

On top of that , the snp have delivered more for scotland in 13 years than labour did over 80 years. Outside of nationalist issues.

rubbish.Its as much the case in england as in scotland. The fptp works against the snp as much as anyone else , but the snp smashed it despite this.

more puerile excuses of why labour  , despite your admission of them being crap at times , have to have the peoples votes.

Theres no one else.! FPTP! Keep the tories out! all the tired and lame excuses.

FArage and ukip didnt even get into power in england , and the mere sniff of them upsetting the apple cart had lab and tory running scremaing.

Farage and ukip did more for the english people than labour have done in the past 50 years.
i havent said there is.

Labour though try and insinuate they are whiter than the tories , and threads like this prove otherwise , so why should anyone vote for them?

They have nothing to offer excpet more of the same.
sure thats what im saying . If you dont like tory , give another party a chance rather than voting labour back into power with similar results to last time.
so you said before. You hope you mean.

I will be here to remnd people of labours lies and hypocrisy and past record if anyone forgets.

The problem with what you say is it presupposes that only the Tories, no matter how basically poor they perform  can run our affairs. Considering the absence of a viable alternative.
It's really not a question of being whiter than white, you acknowledge that, by telling us the Tories are unashamed . Its  a question of  efficiency. In any given period of time in power. Sooner or later that alone will be the only factor. Name calling and what a bouting  will be a side issue.
The fact remains that if the Tories are bad and demonstrate it  all your Labour bad will not count.
There is no reason why Labour should not consider its self as a suitable guardian of the sovereignty of this country , and be considered by the electorate as such. And that is the only reason to consider them a nationalist party.
It is so much easier for the Scots. Their choice includes jumping ship. Into the arms of what many might be persuaded will be freedom.  Not the case in England,.
There is no whiter than white, we have established that. And the fact that Labour highlight social issues , the Tories don't want to talk about is not being whiter than white, it's merely drawing attention to ,in most cases fairly obvious problems.
I know when ever I turn to this site you will  be here  Thomas, and I know what your theme will be. You might be surprised to hear , I do have some regard for your steadfast views , if not the content except in the odd moment that is.

[Thomas]

The trouble with every part of your posts here is that you, are supposing that there is a promised land full of uncorrupted politicians.

No i dont. Another pitifull attempt at a dodge.I have made it explicitly clear to forum members such as dynamis im not some mooncalf left wing idealistic clown like many in the labour party who vote for politicians or parties like the snp because i think they are whiter than white.

..but when labour stand , not once or twice , but constantly on platforms to enact the abolition of the lords , you expect them to honour their manifesto promises , and when they dont , the results as i keep telling you are predictable.

All we need do is realise where the reside.

You trouble is you want to pass off the tories , westmisnter , nationalism etc as bad , while try and portray labour as good , everything will be all right if only the public vote them in .

without trying to pass themsleves off as whiter than white , what exactly have labour have left ?

The poor and oppressed?

We invented the nhs!

Tories bad.?

Take that away , and you have an empty shell full of nothing .

You put your trust in the hands of a nationalist party. That's fine.

as do you. Labour are a british nationalist party , and thats fine too.

Another example of how labour operate. labour says their nationalsim is good  , all other bad.

Dont you see how puerile this arguemtns is , and why voters laugh at you?###

And it's an easier option for Scots

why is it easier?

Its harder to vote snp than the mainstream british parties , who have the power of the british state behind them. The very political system labour endorses is specifically desgined for the two party british state .

So what are you talking about?

On top of that , the snp have delivered more for scotland in 13 years than labour did over 80 years. Outside of nationalist issues.

That option is not the case in England,

rubbish.Its as much the case in england as in scotland. The fptp works against the snp as much as anyone else , but the snp smashed it despite this.

more puerile excuses of why labour  , despite your admission of them being crap at times , have to have the peoples votes.

Theres no one else.! FPTP! Keep the tories out! all the tired and lame excuses.

FArage and ukip didnt even get into power in england , and the mere sniff of them upsetting the apple cart had lab and tory running scremaing.

Farage and ukip did more for the english people than labour have done in the past 50 years.

There is no promised land of non hypocritical, political parties. Just pick your preferred hypocrisy is how it is and always will be.

i havent said there is.

Labour though try and insinuate they are whiter than the tories , and threads like this prove otherwise , so why should anyone vote for them?

They have nothing to offer excpet more of the same.

And  all any voter can do is be prepared to accept that they are giving someone the chance to please.

sure thats what im saying . If you dont like tory , give another party a chance rather than voting labour back into power with similar results to last time.

And remember the past is never totally binding , it's the present that will be judged.

so you said before. You hope you mean.

I will be here to remnd people of labours lies and hypocrisy and past record if anyone forgets.

[Good old]

The trouble with every part of your posts here is that you, are supposing that there is a promised land full of uncorrupted politicians.  All we need do is realise where the reside. For me and others to put our trust in. And until we do find these invisible characters , just keep asking for more ,because you know what's coming.
You put your trust in the hands of a nationalist party. That's fine.  And it's an easier option for Scots, In particular if it is viewed as a gaining of freedom from the clutches of a foreign power.The  Policy  practised is definitely not  Tory, policy except in minor areas
That option is not the case in England, if you want more socialist policy in England ,only the Labour Party can be relied on  to get it.
Anything in England, talking nationalism , is a fudge thought up by Tories.
There is no promised land of non hypocritical, political parties. Just pick your preferred hypocrisy is how it is and always will be.
The democratic system is there to acknowledge that parties will fail to please. Very wise because that's the certainty. And  all any voter can do is be prepared to accept that they are giving someone the chance to please. And remember the past is never totally binding , it's the present that will be judged.

[Thomas]

I stand by what i always say good old , and have told you many a time on many subjects.

The tories do what they say on the tin , and when they stab you  , look you in the eye and stab  you from the front.

Labour get elected on false promises ( eg abolishing house lords )and put theri arms around you and stab you in the back.

If you didnt support the honours system , or wanted the honours system changed and corruption sorted out , why on earth would you vote for labour to do so with their track record?

[Thomas]

Why would you think I was against the honours system?

so what exactly is your point in this thread?

heres what you said again for the hard of rememebring..

What I think is , as ever you insist on mis-representing what I have actually made very clear. " It's an insidious use of honours whoever does it".  It's what has become professional foul play, open to both teams.

You are plainly criticising part of the honours , to throw dirt at the tories , and when pushed about labours past record of similarly being insiduous if not worse over honours , you then run away telling me neither keir charmer or labour/yourself are against the honours system.

Despite the fact many high profile labour mps past and present , most recently kate green are vocal critics of the honours.

So there is a variance of a opinion within the party on some issues. I'm glad to see it is allowed, they are not totallly robotic yet.

Lol , typical labour , one of their bleating mps releases a press statement criticisin something , in this case the honours system , then when the public backlash agaisnt it , the leader has to come out and defend the system and say he supports honours.

Instead of backtracking , good old trys and spins this as a healthy variance of views , of which we know the labour party isnt tolerbale of variance of views .

The shame being the government can manipulate this by putting forward people that have virtually bought the privilege, as said both parties have been guilty of this.

Right so how do you stop this?

You seem to be attack ing the honours system and simulataneously trying to defend it , and when pushed , admit both parties are equally as bad .

I dont vote either labour or tory , so i stand b the courage of my convictions unlike you , who moans about both parties if pushed , but carries on voting labour anyway.

Labour, could theoretically abolish the Lords

they havent once in 111 years despite promising to do so which is the point , which is partly why no one trusts them and why no one should vote them....but you do...

And the Tories have rarely been mine.

neither are mine , which is why i vote different unlike you , who depsite constantly admitting labours past flaws and current problems , and how crap labour are , try and butter people up by saying trust me , just elect labour ( despite their record in power ) and everything wil be fine?

LMFAO.

[Good old]

The twisting and turning you do good old.

Here was me thinking you were against the honours system?

Now you say you enjoy seeing people get honoured?

Typical labour trying to sit on both sides of the fence depending the argument and making a tit of themselves.
what do you mean political donors ,and how do you find out wether someone is being honoured for political reasons under the surface?

So starmer says one thing , and his shadow education secretary says another on the honours system?

As ever labour blow with the wind on the subject.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-55281712

Your and labours.

House of lords and peerages being a prime example.

The tories support peerages , and stand on a ticket at election time doing so. you get what you vote for .

The snp dont support the lords , dont take seats , and stand on a ticket at election time doing so. You get what you vote for.

Labour say they dont support the lords , stuff the lords full of toadies , and have stood on a ticket of abolishing the lords for over a century. Patently you dont get what you vote for when you vote labour.

The only hypocrisy i see on honours is labour , not anyone elses.

Why would you think I was against the honours system? I have not said that. Neither  does  Starmer. How can it be a fence involved ?. It's always that old black or white thing with you . Yet real  politics is never that, even when practised by the SNP.
So there is a variance of a opinion within the party on some issues. I'm glad to see it is allowed, they are not totallly robotic yet.
The awards are crown awards if you support them you support the crown in awarding people for something. The shame being the government can manipulate this by putting forward people that have virtually bought the privilege, as said both parties have been guilty of this.
The SNP are in effect rejecting a royal honour, that's for them. If they feel they have tarnished  the nomination by paying for it ,that's also for them. I think it's more to do with rejecting all things touched by Westminster, Which is again for them to decide.
Labour, could theoretically abolish the Lords . But until they ever do the very least they must have in that house is something near to parity or better, it's not hypocritical , it's total political sense.
As for the point you make in the following post. It's clear you think one wrong makes a right. The problem being there is no RIGHT. That idea is myth nothing else. Only preference. And the Tories have rarely been mine.

[Thomas]

Why bother we know it's practiced by both teams. No charges , just shit on the blanket. That's all the accusers were after.

It was , but when you vote tory , you get whats on the tin.

Tories arent out pretending to be whiter than white unlike labour , which is my point , and trying to make political capital out of a system being bad that they endorse to the hilt!!!

[Thomas]

Yes he enjoys seeing people that deserve getting some recognition . So do I .

The twisting and turning you do good old.

Here was me thinking you were against the honours system?

   
It's an insidious use of honours, whoever does it.

Now you say you enjoy seeing people get honoured?

Typical labour trying to sit on both sides of the fence depending the argument and making a tit of themselves.

That doesn't include political donors, for me.

what do you mean political donors ,and how do you find out wether someone is being honoured for political reasons under the surface?

And  that piece doesn't demonstrate him being any different.

So starmer says one thing , and his shadow education secretary says another on the honours system?

As ever labour blow with the wind on the subject.

Kate Green: Honours system 'offensive and divisive'
'

Shadow education secretary Kate Green has said the honours system is hierarchical and the link to the British Empire was "hurtful to people".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-55281712

It was only the word hypocrisy, that  caught my eye. Which brand, yours mine, or the rest of the worlds?

Your and labours.

House of lords and peerages being a prime example.

The tories support peerages , and stand on a ticket at election time doing so. you get what you vote for .

The snp dont support the lords , dont take seats , and stand on a ticket at election time doing so. You get what you vote for.

Labour say they dont support the lords , stuff the lords full of toadies , and have stood on a ticket of abolishing the lords for over a century. Patently you dont get what you vote for when you vote labour.

The only hypocrisy i see on honours is labour , not anyone elses.

[Good old]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/cash-for-honours-labour-hid-millions-from-auditors-423994.html

Why bother we know it's practiced by both teams. No charges , just shit on the blanket. That's all the accusers were after.

[Good old]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-british-empire-honours-system-b1773208.html

Yes he enjoys seeing people that deserve getting some recognition . So do I . That doesn't include political donors, for me. And  that piece doesn't demonstrate him being any different.
As for your previous comments. It was only the word hypocrisy, that  caught my eye. Which brand, yours mine, or the rest of the worlds?  There is no one on this earth that does not suffer a degree of hypocrisy, , including the SNP, or you for that matter. Its  purely a matter of who wants to look for it and why.

[Thomas]

Cash for honours: 'Labour deliberately tried to conceal secret loans'

The Labour Party concealed from its own auditors the receipt of millions of pounds in loans from businessmen nominated by Tony Blair for Labour peerages, The Independent on Sunday can reveal.

Scotland Yard has now broadened its inquiry to consider allegations that the party produced a false balance sheet and broke the law by failing to disclose £12m-worth of loans in audited annual figures published last year.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/cash-for-honours-labour-hid-millions-from-auditors-423994.html

[Thomas]

Keir Starmer defends honours system after Labour frontbencher criticises British Empire 'branding'

"Whenever I see the honours list I go through the list and look at who they are and what they're getting it for and it's really interesting to see the people who've  – charitable work, public service – the things that people have put in that they get rewarded for and I think that's a good thing."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-british-empire-honours-system-b1773208.html

[Thomas]

Oh, really. We have to take your constant tirade of Labour bad. Reams of it , any piece of old tosh you dig up and agree with will do, as long as the message is Labour bad.

sure , and you can say the same about the snp or tories ,and i will point out labours hypocrisey.

I don't need you to take me seriously , because I view much of your stance on this and many other issues as fake, Thomas.

I dont take you seriously , and neither does anyone else or labour.

Whats fake about pointing out labours hypocrisy and trying to educate you why they dont get voted into power?

And my conviction is with Labour, even though that is based on what is the better of two parties competing for the benefits of a failing system. Not a prefect situation in other words, but then neither is life.

We managed to break the very same failing system in scotland ,so why cant you?

You wont know if you dont try , but you dont want to try , instead you offer feeble excuses.

[Good old]

I dont vote for labour or conservatives , unlike you , who is a constant and vocal supporter of labour. So yet again , screaming the tories do it too isnt any sort of an excuse when you are supporting a party who endorses the very honours system you are on here bleating about.

I might take you a bit more serious if you had the courage of your convictions to vote someone other than labour as i do , until then, its just more tory bad whinging  , which as i keep telling you , sint going to put labour into power.

Oh, really. We have to take your constant tirade of Labour bad. Reams of it , any piece of old tosh you dig up and agree with will do, as long as the message is Labour bad.
I know you are serous in your Labour bad stance,. And your constant resorting to sad little put downs. I don't need you to take me seriously , because I view much of your stance on this and many other issues as fake, Thomas.
And my conviction is with Labour, even though that is based on what is the better of two parties competing for the benefits of a failing system. Not a prefect situation in other words, but then neither is life.