Who are you?

[T00ts]

@cromwell - thanks I try hard to live by what I believe but it's not easy and was never meant to be but I don't want to slide into religious belief because the OP was not directed that way. Of course I have an answer within my faith but will try to look at it from a more secular viewpoint.

I have been pondering this thread a lot and wonder why we have this over-riding choice. We are not driven by our bodies or our thoughts. That's a big statement I guess, but thinking about it let's think of food. Now if you're hungry you want to eat but we can choose not to. Even to the point of death. Where does that come from if it isn't something else ie spirit  if that's the name we give it in this thread, which is able to rule the body?  It is the same with most physical wants even needs. Why is that if it isn't something to do with the Spirit being the ruler of the body and therefore separate? What about the huge feats that people manage when pressed beyond their physical limits when in danger? Where does that come from? Someone can possibly explain the physical changes of course but what starts the process and spurs it on? The spirit?

It makes me think that nothing is actually physical in the sense that the physical is dominant, and that everything is actually spiritual.

As For JOG - my heart goes out to him and the trials he has lived with but we do still have a choice as to how we rise or otherwise to those challenges.

[cromwell]

A change from the usual tory bad labour tossers threads.

Interesting reading too,of course we are changed by lives experience,I have a jaundiced view of humanity though am sometimes cheered by everyday and remarkable acts by some of those humans.

Knowing a little of Johns life experiences I've no doubt were it me I'd be very bitter toward many.

I've had some really negative life experiences that I suppose has shaped some very negative views.

As far as T00ts talking of her beliefs and faith I see and know those who trip off to church every Sunday and then revert to type and I feel like shouting bloody hypocrites in their direction.

T00ts I find by her posts on here very different,she tries to act in a manner compatible with that faith and belief system though sadly so many do not she is definitely in a tiny minority.

Don't get me wrong I'm far from perfection but do have the annoying habit as I've described on another thread of loudly pointing out to people,what is it "judge not lest ye be judged yourself" Ive always thought Christianity lays down some very good basic tenets on how we treat and see others but they are not often translated into deeds by so many followers.

[T00ts]

The bit I didn't understand was the spiritual malleability, the concept raised in the OP that Iife experiences and choices impact the spiritual you. I don't see that. I don't see how it can. Now to be fair reading what you said again, I think you said that as well......

Yes that is what I feel too. and yet...

The implication is that if someone views themselves as their spirit, and they do not think their life experiences change their spirit, then they are essentially (for lack of a better term) stuck as who they are.

ie you are born with some determined values, and no matter what situations, and life experiences you have, those values do not (and can not) change.

I wonder if what I feel is much more complex. Is my spirit something that is 'stuck'? The answer has to be  NO. Does it change? I still feel that the answer is NO. Somehow there is a difference between experience, knowledge and general growth and that part of the spirit which is 'me'.

For what it's worth and I throw it out there just as a starting point, my spirit learns yes, it is affected by what it sees and hears and experiences yes, but there is something about it that is unchanging in the terms of who I am. Am I on my own here? Is what I feel different to anyone else?

I could go on but I'll stop rather than write a dissertation and see if anyone else has a view.

[Nalaar]

The bit I didn't understand was the spiritual malleability, the concept raised in the OP that Iife experiences and choices impact the spiritual you. I don't see that. I don't see how it can.

The implication is that if someone views themselves as their spirit, and they do not think their life experiences change their spirit, then they are essentially (for lack of a better term) stuck as who they are.

ie you are born with some determined values, and no matter what situations, and life experiences you have, those values do not (and can not) change.

[johnofgwent]

Is that directed at me? I am not sure I understand what you mean if it is.

Yes it was, but not exclusively. Your answer confused me a bit.


To go back to the OP, I consider myself to be physically the last carrier of the Sigurd mitochondrial DNA in a line going back to the middle ages (my mother had no daughters, the first in a shockingly long line to see what my brother researched), plus the sum of countless memories of 63 years of existence. I do not, now, recognise any "spiritual" component of my mortal existence. And it is the case that I am very much the man I was 20, 30, even 40 years ago except there was less of me and I had more hair, and a whole stack of life experience yet to come, some incredible, some soul destroying. Not that I have one, but you get what I mean ...


The bit I didn't understand was the spiritual malleability, the concept raised in the OP that Iife experiences and choices impact the spiritual you. I don't see that. I don't see how it can. Now to be fair reading what you said again, I think you said that as well......

[johnofgwent]

You can't beat a bit of the old predestination. The Good Lord has already chosen those who will be saved so you are buggered whatever you do. So you might as well look at the girls knees in church, old beardie has already made up his mind

The view from the pulpit offers a more lofty perspective. I speak as a former young lay preacher.

[T00ts]

You can't beat a bit of the old predestination. The Good Lord has already chosen those who will be saved so you are buggered whatever you do. So you might as well look at the girls knees in church, old beardie has already made up his mind

You have been at the tomato juice again down in the potting shed!  You could be right about a degree of preordination eg Jesus, Adam and Eve, Mary, and many others, but only if they chose to fulfil their calling. In terms of preordination for those saved - well that would make being here at all pointless for most of us. It's a bit of a cop out in a way.

[Borchester]

I'm not even sure I understand that in the sense of any religion I've ever encountered. I know several say you're in for a pretty miserable afterlife if you don't adhere to the rules their priesthoods lay down (but often fail to follow themselves) but I know of no religion that tells me the spiritual being that Iives on after my mortal demise can have it's behaviour changed by my mortal experience. That seems a nonsense

You can't beat a bit of the old predestination. The Good Lord has already chosen those who will be saved so you are buggered whatever you do. So you might as well look at the girls knees in church, old beardie has already made up his mind

[T00ts]

I'm not even sure I understand that in the sense of any religion I've ever encountered. I know several say you're in for a pretty miserable afterlife if you don't adhere to the rules their priesthoods lay down (but often fail to follow themselves) but I know of no religion that tells me the spiritual being that Iives on after my mortal demise can have it's behaviour changed by my mortal experience. That seems a nonsense

Is that directed at me? I am not sure I understand what you mean if it is.

[johnofgwent]

Mmm Ok that's done already I think. Can my Spirit be changed? I don't think so - it's been pretty steady thus far.

I'm not even sure I understand that in the sense of any religion I've ever encountered. I know several say you're in for a pretty miserable afterlife if you don't adhere to the rules their priesthoods lay down (but often fail to follow themselves) but I know of no religion that tells me the spiritual being that Iives on after my mortal demise can have it's behaviour changed by my mortal experience. That seems a nonsense

[johnofgwent]

Not any sort of formal or academic study, a question that I was asked about a week ago was 'who would you be tomorrow if you forgot today?' Which lead to the OP questions.

You have some very strange acquaintances

[T00ts]

Just your interpretation of who you are.

To put more bluntly, do you think you spirit can be changed, through experience?

Mmm Ok that's done already I think. Can my Spirit be changed? I don't think so - it's been pretty steady thus far.

[papasmurf]

I would like you to consider what you feel it means to be 'you', and what is your sense of 'youness'

Do you consider yourself physical - You are your blood, bones, nerves, and body?

Do you consider yourself mental - A culmination of memories, and mental impressions gathered over your life?

Do you consider yourself a spirit - Something intangible and independent of your physical form, and mental properties?

Or a mix of 2 or more of the above?

To follow this up, once you're confident in how you describe you "are", what happens when the circumstances around this aspect change? Who are you without your memories? Who are you if you lose a limb?

Is there any sense in which you feel you are the same person you were 20 years ago?

I would love to answer the question but I don't understand it, far too ethereal for me.

[Nalaar]

]I don't know what you are wanting from me

Just your interpretation of who you are.

Is it malleable? In what way?

To put more bluntly, do you think you spirit can be changed, through experience?

[Nalaar]

Is this something to do with your studies?

Not any sort of formal or academic study, a question that I was asked about a week ago was 'who would you be tomorrow if you forgot today?' Which lead to the OP questions.