Conservative no longer?

[johnofgwent]

There are two things that make me uneasy about PR. One is the formalisation of voting for a party and not a candidate. And the other is that so many of the most ardent supporters of PR are themselves from widely unliked and unloved obsessed single-issue factions that would actively disrupt society in pursuit of their totalitarian aims — eg Greens, Britain First, ER, etc, etc, etc...

The funny thing is, the olny time the BNP got anywhere was when the Labour Party decided to ignore child sex abuse by pakistanis. Do you think PR might have caused Labour to be a little less blind in the left eye. I ask because it was very strange that ten minutes after two BNP guys got MEP seats Phil Woolas the labour Immigration Minister decided he wanted to be a lot less friendly to immigrants than his party ....

[johnofgwent]

You know I have yet to meet any woman with a blue rinse beyond the age of about 25, as well as bright pink, green and purple.

Book a B&B in Hartley Wintney. Any of them will do.

Where ? I hear you say ?

About a mile outside Hook, down the road from Basingstoke.

The village is the B&B HQ for the Basingstoke Alencon Link Civil Service Admin Offices, and also a home from home for visitors to the nearby Aldermarston site.

I spent a few months there, on and off, while freelancing at NTL Cabletel as it was then called, and EDS after that. I stayed at a deligtful B&B, well, delightful except that a pictiure of Maggie Thatcher stared down at me at the breakfast table every morning. Bloody Conservative Party Constituency Party Treasurers(I had the same experiece when staying at a B&B in Wimbledon)

[Borchester]

Why do we need a change? My party gets in every time and is a shoe-in for the foreseeable 😂

To be fair, so does mine and Tommy's. There are a few poor buggers who I shall not name (although they are Steve and Duckie), who think PR will give their views a chance. It won't but it does not harm to let them dream

[Nick]

That sounds like a feeble excuse against much needed change .

The vast majority of countires around the world , something like 125 nation states , use either PR or some form of mixed PR that dont bring about the apocalypse or disrupt society in pursuit of totalitarian aims .

Indeed it seems to be the norm in most european states.

Funnily enough , despite your description above of the horror pr allegedly brings to those who dare use it , the USA and the UK with their winner takes all two party politics , where they give out the illusion of the voters having a choice , but in reality they herd the public down a one way corridor offering a binary choice between two cheeks of the same arse seem to be having the major issues in first world politics at the minute , and have been now for a number of years.

Why is the formalisation of voting for a party rather than a candidate an issue when its the reality as it stands just now?

How many old safe seats around these islands could you parachute an alien into as the candidate and no one would take a blind bit of notice unless they dismembered a new born baby live on tv , while the public trotted out to vote labour/tory ?

Perhaps you could elaborate  further to us mere mortals your thinking on this matter.?

Why do we need a change? My party gets in every time and is a shoe-in for the foreseeable 😂 

[Thomas]

Most of the crooks I know wear suits.

prove it?

[Thomas]

There are two things that make me uneasy about PR. One is the formalisation of voting for a party and not a candidate. And the other is that so many of the most ardent supporters of PR are themselves from widely unliked and unloved obsessed single-issue factions that would actively disrupt society in pursuit of their totalitarian aims — eg Greens, Britain First, ER, etc, etc, etc...

That sounds like a feeble excuse against much needed change .

The vast majority of countires around the world , something like 125 nation states , use either PR or some form of mixed PR that dont bring about the apocalypse or disrupt society in pursuit of totalitarian aims .

Indeed it seems to be the norm in most european states.

Funnily enough , despite your description above of the horror pr allegedly brings to those who dare use it , the USA and the UK with their winner takes all two party politics , where they give out the illusion of the voters having a choice , but in reality they herd the public down a one way corridor offering a binary choice between two cheeks of the same arse seem to be having the major issues in first world politics at the minute , and have been now for a number of years.

Why is the formalisation of voting for a party rather than a candidate an issue when its the reality as it stands just now?

How many old safe seats around these islands could you parachute an alien into as the candidate and no one would take a blind bit of notice unless they dismembered a new born baby live on tv , while the public trotted out to vote labour/tory ?

Perhaps you could elaborate  further to us mere mortals your thinking on this matter.?

[patman post]

Law suits...?

[papasmurf]

Perhaps a refection of society in general — but more true about the Metropolitan Police Service...

Most of the crooks I know wear suits.

[patman post]

Not all of them are self serving crooks but far too many of them are.

Perhaps a refection of society in general — but more true about the Metropolitan Police Service...

[papasmurf]

I realise the popular responses in talking about MPs is to join in and reckon them all to be self serving crooks, 

Not all of them are self serving crooks but far too many of them are.

[patman post]

I realise the popular responses in talking about MPs is to join in and reckon them all to be self serving crooks, but I believe most of them actually in politics in the belief they can alter things and make life better for as many people as possible. And although I'm also not a fan of any PR system I've seen proposed, that doesn't mean I think Westminster cannot be improved.

Firstly, I think there are 50-100 MPs too many. And secondly, the half-baked reforms of The Lords needs to be rethought and completed.  On other fronts I see no problem with subsidised restaurants and bars (they're not unusual perks in the commercial world). Nor do I see problems with a salary of currently say £100K, reasonable expenses, or having additional work — some professions require continued practice to remain registered and drawing up a lists of exemptions always results contested anomalies.

I'm not a big fan of the abilities of the current Tory administration, but I'm even less of a fan of Labour. It would not surprise me to see Boris losing his roguish appeal and the current Labour mish-mash of socialist hardliners and union puppets, together with its collection of centrists, getting near power...

[papasmurf]

There are two things that make me uneasy about PR. One is the formalisation of voting for a party and not a candidate. And the other is that so many of the most ardent supporters of PR are themselves from widely unliked and unloved obsessed single-issue factions that would actively disrupt society in pursuit of their totalitarian aims — eg Greens, Britain First, ER, etc, etc, etc...

The price to be paid for full PR is some nasty people could end up as MPs,(which given the significant number of nasty bastard  MPs who are currently in Parliament would not be much of a change.)

[patman post]

But we need proper, fully proportional PR, not the bullshit that they have in Wales for example which merely spreads the load around the hig four and make it impossible to mget rid of corbyn lovers without recourse to ricin.

There are two things that make me uneasy about PR. One is the formalisation of voting for a party and not a candidate. And the other is that so many of the most ardent supporters of PR are themselves from widely unliked and unloved obsessed single-issue factions that would actively disrupt society in pursuit of their totalitarian aims — eg Greens, Britain First, ER, etc, etc, etc...

[patman post]

Will your two inherit your sarcasm?

There's every chance they will. Having parents from countries outside the EU (one country with a close relationship and benefitting, and the other still unable to settle its supposedly chosen status) must help. Plus they're not impressed with our local Labour MP and councillors — though that could well be taken from my current opinions on local politics and its tokenism greening around the place...

[johnofgwent]

What we most fundamentally need is PR so that we are not forced into a binary choice between two versions of the same rubbish just to make our votes count.

Both main party leaderships fear PR, as their only hope of attaining a majority with the support of a minority is the status quo.

Starmer and his acolytes at best command the enthusiastic backing of no more than 20 percent of the electorate, mostly affluent metropolitan middle class liberals who have benefitted from - and bought entirely into - the economic status quo, yet imagine themselves to be progressives due to theor woke obsessions. For the rest of the votes needed Starmer and co are relying upon a horde of people who feel their only course is to vote for the lesser of two evils to make their vote count. As such they are relying on a Tory collapse and winning themselves by default.

The only chance for meaningful change is to destroy New Labour as any kind of force in politics which will require a devastating Labour defeat, one so desperate that even they are forced to embrace electoral reform. And then we have to build a coalition  of support for it. Only once such reform is delivered can we get what we truly vote for and make all our votes count.

But we need proper, fully proportional PR, not the bullshit that they have in Wales for example which merely spreads the load around the hig four and make it impossible to mget rid of corbyn lovers without recourse to ricin.