Thou shalt not kill

[cromwell]

Yes I saw the mention of child abuse and broken homes which couldn't have done him any good . The system has let him down to some extent but as I say he had three chances of rehabilitation and went on to commit further violent crimes  so release into society isn't  something he is owed but rather something he may get due to the weak sentencing .

Having said that all prisoners should be held in a civilised setting , rehabilitation should be given every chance .  Some have had more than enough chances though ,it would appear Bellfield is one of them .

Would agree with that.

[Streetwalker]

You saw his childhood? (if you can call it that)

Has he had treatment for his mental illness in prison,is he drug free, are we saying no one can ever change?

It's still not clear if he's innocent,all I'm saying if he is he needs freeing,you cannot incarcerate people who did not commit that crime.

If he is but still mentally ill he should be treated and held in a civilised setting allowing as much freedom as is possible that would be the least he is owed.

Yes I saw the mention of child abuse and broken homes which couldn't have done him any good . The system has let him down to some extent but as I say he had three chances of rehabilitation and went on to commit further violent crimes  so release into society isn't  something he is owed but rather something he may get due to the weak sentencing .

Having said that all prisoners should be held in a civilised setting , rehabilitation should be given every chance .  Some have had more than enough chances though ,it would appear Bellfield is one of them . 

[cromwell]

His police record would be a clue . Even without the conviction in question he should be serving some serious time and that's not the jury system thats flawed but the sentencing one where Judges would be aware (unlike the jury) of previous convictions . Three terms for violent crimes ? 

What do you think this guy is going to do if released from prison ,get a job in Tesco ?  The law is supposed to protect the population from harm  He is a violent criminal who was known to carry various weapons while in drug fuelled semi comas .

I would really just prefer his like don't have the opportunity

You saw his childhood? (if you can call it that)

Has he had treatment for his mental illness in prison,is he drug free, are we saying no one can ever change?

It's still not clear if he's innocent,all I'm saying if he is he needs freeing,you cannot incarcerate people who did not commit that crime.

If he is but still mentally ill he should be treated and held in a civilised setting allowing as much freedom as is possible that would be the least he is owed.

[Streetwalker]

You know this how?
Oh ok so you believe even if he didn't do it he should be in prison,how about we dispense with the jury system and let you decide?
I'm not say it excuses his behaviour but not what you'd call a good start in life but if he is innocent of this do you believe as you said above he'd be better remaining in prison or dead and can you further explain why.

His police record would be a clue . Even without the conviction in question he should be serving some serious time and that's not the jury system thats flawed but the sentencing one where Judges would be aware (unlike the jury) of previous convictions . Three terms for violent crimes ?  

What do you think this guy is going to do if released from prison ,get a job in Tesco ?   The law is supposed to protect the population from harm  He is a violent criminal who was known to carry various weapons while in drug fuelled semi comas . 

I would really just prefer his like don't have the opportunity 

[Sampanviking]

Lived in Dawlish,suddenly stopped posting never heard from him again.

He probably got caught by the Wicker Man brigade...

[cromwell]

i second that barry. Dave uk was a formidable debater on the old forum , quite a knowledgeable guy in general.

I think from memory he was a working class guy who had done time in prison , dont know if that was where he studied theology , but knew his stuff. Also from memory im sure he was a musician?

Lived in Dawlish,suddenly stopped posting never heard from him again.

[Thomas]

T00ts, you want to be thankful that DaveUK is no longer on the forum. He was an atheist who had studied theology, may have studied for a degree, and he would have made mincemeat of some of the comments in this thread. I miss him, because he was such a challenge, and without challenges our spiritual muscles get a bit flabby.

i second that barry. Dave uk was a formidable debater on the old forum , quite a knowledgeable guy in general.

I think from memory he was a working class guy who had done time in prison , dont know if that was where he studied theology , but knew his stuff. Also from memory im sure he was a musician?

[cromwell]

Stone was /is a complete nutter

You know this how?

We have discussed this topic many times and nothing is yet to convince me that zero tolerance policing and long sentences for violent criminals would nip in the bud tomorrows murders  .

Bellfield appears an attention seeking liar who has nothing better to do while seeing out his miserable days behind bars than confess to others crimes  ,society is the better without either of them ,dead or locked up , no matter .

Oh ok so you believe even if he didn't do it he should be in prison,how about we dispense with the jury system and let you decide?

Stone was born as Michael John Goodban in Royal Tunbridge Wells, Kent in 1960, one of five children.^[1] Although the name of his father was registered, and therefore given on his birth certificate, as "Ivor Goodban", there was uncertainty over the true identity of his father and Stone regarded a different partner of his mother, Peter Stone, as having been his father.^[6][7] Both men denied that he was their son.^[6] Stone had a turbulent childhood, suffering domestic violence in his family home before he was placed into a care home, where he was abused.^[1] As a boy, he had also been beaten with a hammer, and witnessed his mother's former partner attack another man with a meat cleaver in his home.^[6][7] He was known to be prone to uncontrolled outbursts and aggressive mood swings.^[6] From the age of nine, he began using drugs and committing crimes.^[6]

Stone's police record dates back to 1972 at the age of 12 and continued into adulthood.^[8] Once leaving the care system, Stone began using heroin,^[1] and soon developed a £1,500 a week heroin addiction.^[9] He served three prison sentences in the 1980s and 1990s for robbery, burglary, grievous bodily harm and assault occasioning actual bodily harm.^[1][10][11] He was known to carry weapons, including knives and guns, and would also attack victims with ammonia squirted from a Jif lemon bottle.^[9] He became a figure in the criminal underworld of the Medway towns of Kent.

I'm not say it excuses his behaviour but not what you'd call a good start in life but if he is innocent of this do you believe as you said above he'd be better remaining in prison or dead and can you further explain why.

[papasmurf]

One of my T-shirts:-

[T00ts]

T00ts, you want to be thankful that DaveUK is no longer on the forum. He was an atheist who had studied theology, may have studied for a degree, and he would have made mincemeat of some of the comments in this thread. I miss him, because he was such a challenge, and without challenges our spiritual muscles get a bit flabby.

I don't know it might have been interesting.  

[Streetwalker]

And it seems quite possible that Michael Stone didn't and had we still the death penalty he wouldn't be here anyway,as it is incarcerated for over two decades.

If it turns out it was Bellfield then Stone should be released as soon as and allowed what's left of his life lived in peace.

Stone was /is a complete nutter who's previous offences should have meant he was banged up and out of society long before the murders took place . He wasn't though having been given light sentences for previous violent  crimes . Had he received appropriate sentencing at the time maybe that poor Russel family would still be alive or even the right person would have been arrested for it . 

We have discussed this topic many times and nothing is yet to convince me that zero tolerance policing and long sentences for violent criminals would nip in the bud tomorrows murders   . 

 Bellfield appears an attention seeking liar who has nothing better to do while seeing out his miserable days behind bars than confess to others crimes  ,society is the better without either of them ,dead or locked up , no matter . 

[Barry]

T00ts, you want to be thankful that DaveUK is no longer on the forum. He was an atheist who had studied theology, may have studied for a degree, and he would have made mincemeat of some of the comments in this thread. I miss him, because he was such a challenge, and without challenges our spiritual muscles get a bit flabby.

[srb7677]

I love it when atheists use the Bible to try to make a point

Well I am not exactly an atheist - I do have beliefs - but I am not exactly a Christian either and question the validity of much that is in the bible.

But I was baptised C of E and was pretty much made to attend sunday school with my siblings until I rebelled against it and refused to go anymore, declaring that I didn't believe in it. I was about 12 at this point. Sunday school always included attendance at church. My father was hardly a shining example though and never went to church himself. He was a firm adherent of the the 11th commandment - Do as I say, not as I do. Leading by example was never his bag. My mother more actively believed, but still never went to church. Many of those running the sunday school - when I was old enough to pick up on it - clearly resented our presence, believing that we were just being dumped there for a couple of hours so our parents could have some peace and quiet. And it was probably a correct assumption, sadly.

Nevertheless, I learned a lot of bible stuff as a result, and continued learning in Religious Education lessons in school right up until the age of about 14. And though by about 12 I was a convinced non-believer, I nevertheless managed to come top of the class in the 1977 RE exam.

I say all this because there will be non-believers like me who nevertheless have pasts that aquainted them quite well with the bible. I have also read most of it twice as a younger adult when on something of a spiritual journey. And a couple of decades back when some Jehovah's Witnesses showed up at my door I invited them in which resulted in many weeks of prolonged biblical discussion, and once I attended their church with them on a sunday (they refer to their churches as "kingdom halls", and those leading their services which included bible discussions and Q&As, are known as "elders"). Clearly my mind was open but I failed to be convinced. The fact that they insisted that every single word in the bible was literally true would not sit well with what I already knew about scientific knowledge. And some of their attempts at explaining away my science-based doubts were themselves nonsensical. I distinctly remember them being utterly blind sided when I questioned how a couple of kangaroos could have made their way across land and sea all the way from Mount Arawat to Australia. They had to consult their church elders for that one and came back with a load of absolute drivel. I will not waste space on here going into it unless anyone really wants to know. Suffice it to say that it made an absolute mockery out of geology.

I do sometimes think believers sometimes either like to assume that all non-believers are ignorant of the bible, or feel uneasy about any that do know their bible but still don't believe.

[Barry]

No and you know that isn't so. There are instances throughout the scriptures where God has given the command. The point being that it is not our decision or right.

I'll leave you to figure that one out, as you are making your way through the old testament. Good night!

[T00ts]

So God would never tell people to kill anything, or anyone, is that right?

No and you know that isn't so. There are instances throughout the scriptures where God has given the command. The point being that it is not our decision or right.