50 th anniversary of bloody sunday.

[srb7677]

It was difficult times the challenges of keeping order within a civilian community with divided loyalties were  immense . Throw into that the very real chances of serious harm coming your way , that your probably in your early 20's and just a few weeks earlier 3 teenage soldiers one of which was a lad of just 17  had been led out of a Belfast pub in a honey trap and shot dead at the side of the road would maybe give some indication of the mindset of the soldier at the time  .

I am well aware that some were throwing stones, but that should not provide a license to gun them down, even whilst they are fleeing.

As for the mindset of soldiers, we can all understand the anger some might have felt at one of their own being murdered. But blaming an entire community and murdering unarmed civilians as an expression of that anger is not justified. I expect German troops had a similar mindset when one of their own was killed by local partisans in WW2. Yet when they responded by murdering civilians we called it war crimes. And rightly so.

And what the soldiers did of course so massively played into the hands of the IRA that it most certainly gave them the manpower and means to kill many more British soldiers than they might have otherwise been able to do. Atrocities against civilians does tend to drive many more of them into the hands of thoe fighting the ones who committed the atrocities. As the Germans discovered in WW2.

[papasmurf]

We were not there ,we don't know the full story but for the sake of peace we accept any version of truth that keeps it .

Quite. Only personally with so much still being hidden away for "security reasons" and not as far as I can see ever likely to be released until 100 years after the incident if ever. I suspect the general public will remain in ignorance, as they have done for a very long time about other incidents in the now distant past.

[Streetwalker]

And you accuse me of not knowing what I am talking about?

The so-called mob were unarmed civilian civil rights protesters. The facts are in the public domain for all to see, but there will always be those such as yourself who choose to believe bollocks.

And you do it in spite of what Thomas has posted, choosing not to even read it I suspect. There are none so blind - and unashamedly ignorant - as those that will not see.

Yes the  facts are there for all to see . You make out  as if it was some sort of  Buddhists peace protest when the facts presented  would indicate the Army were under pressure to keep order .
Skirmishes had been on going all day with the usual rock throwing from the peaceful civil rights marchers . Nobodies condoning firing live rounds at civilians  but lets get some perspective here . 

It was difficult times the challenges of keeping order within a civilian community with divided loyalties were  immense . Throw into that the very real chances of serious harm coming your way , that your probably in your early 20's and just a few weeks earlier 3 teenage soldiers one of which was a lad of just 17  had been led out of a Belfast pub in a honey trap and shot dead at the side of the road would maybe give some indication of the mindset of the soldier at the time  .

But there you go dont let the facts get in the way of the peace process , it was all our boys fault  and we are very , very sorry for being there in attempt to keep the peace for the vast majority of the people who wanted it . Even the 2nd enquiry which took a decade to get its report republican friendly said there  was 'some firing' from paramilitaries but on balance the  Army fired first . 

We were not there ,we don't know the full story but for the sake of peace we accept any version of truth that keeps it .

[Thomas]

What Ulster needs is a future. Instead it has a bunch of dreary clowns going glassy eyed with delight at the horrors of the past.

Amen to that borkie.

[Thomas]

Thanks for bringing all this to our attention, Thomas.

I note that thus far none of the usual suspects around here have had anything much to say about it.

Let's be brutally honest here. It was a day in which armed British soldiers fired at and murdered unarmed civilian civil rights protesters, some of them in the back whilst fleeing, one of them in the back whilst already on the ground. And then lied about it. And the entire British establishment were complicit in the resulting cover up.

It was a dark day for Northern Ireland and a dark day for Britain, and undoubtedly so poisoned the atmosphere that it fueled terrorism. The massacre acted as a recruiting seargent for the IRA and undoubtedly empowered them with more manpower and money enabling them to step up their own murderous operations. And this in turn led to loyalist terrorists growing in strength too as a reaction. A quarter of a century of bloodshed ensued before peace of any kind became possible.

What that dark day did was kill the civil rights peaceful protests, and opened the door to the gunmen and bombers to take their place. Yet all the protesters were asking for is what the rest of us on the mainland took for granted, equal and fair access to jobs and housing, and one person one vote. And then the end of internment without trial.

It was not much to ask for. But for asking for it some of them were gunned down. They were murdered by Briish soldiers for demanding what anyone in a free society takes for granted.

Yes, there were those who tried to lob missiles of one kind or another, stones and such. But that does not usually result in being gunned down except in tyrannical regimes. And continuing to fire at people who are fleeing, even shooting in the back someone already on the ground, is utterly inexcusable. When Germans in uniform did such things a quarter century earlier, we called them war criminals and put them on trial.

A day of shame, but alas not the only one and far from being the worst. Look up the Amritsar massacre of 1919. Or the atrocities commited in Kenya in the 1950s, the latter including numerous cases of castration, or beatings to death, and in at least one instance a captive in a prison camp overseen by British officers being roasted alive.

Such things need to be remembered and acknowledged, but all too often we seem as a nation to indulge in collective amnesia, only remembering what we like to believe are the good bits.

And the failure of anyone but you Thomas to acknowledge this is a typical reaction. Let's just pretend it never happened.

Thanks for your reply steve , a well thought out decent post .

The problem for northern ireland as i have said before was the original partition in 1921. Northern ireland had never in the history of mankind existed as an entity until 1921. Its often erronously called "ulster" , where there are 9 counties of ulster , and 3 of them are in the rpublic. Even the name northern ireland is misleading , as the most northerly point of ireland is in the republic , malins head.

The problem with partition was it wasnt a line drawn along a geographic area like between scotland england with rivers hills and moutains dividing the two , it was a line based on nothing more than what unionism thought they could hold in respect of westminster encouragement , the original that westmisnter told them was to take all 9 counties of ulster , but unionism told them they couldnt hold it and settled for 6.

This was no free and democratic vote to stay in the uk....fermanagh and tyrone were staunchly nationalist counties , and only antrim /down were unionist , with the other two split. So northern ireland had a large minority of nationalist irish with in its boundaries , then westmisnter let them set up a sectarian apartheid state based arounf stormont devolved rule.

It was often wryly joked about northern ireland was the only place in the uk where getting a cooncil house depended on which church you went to.

It all went down hil from there.

When you deny a man his vote and freedoms , as well as rights , all he has left is the ability to turn to violence. I said the same on here in the aftermath of the brexit ref , westmisnter trying to deny a vote would probably end up with similar violence.

The irish were wronged with partition. Aside from that , there were very few good guys , both sides of the divide and both british and irish governments to my mind were all to a lesser or greater degree culpable for what happened.

Bloody sunday was just one event , probably the most famous , of what went on . As you said , the uk came out of it looking bad in the eyes of the world.

I take your point also about lack of comment , but many people  , including many good people in england , are uncomfortable about it understandably so.

[papasmurf]

It has never stopped you before, but for once you are right.

The men responsible have been under investigation for 50 years, 

Actually the man , singular is what in those sealed files.

[Borchester]

Some of the official reports about the incident are still sealed, 50 years have passed and still no sign of them being released to the public domain. So it is not possible for me to comment.

It has never stopped you before, but for once you are right.

The men responsible have been under investigation for 50 years, never knowing when their political masters might throw them to the wolves. Meanwhile the unionist and loyalist murder gangs have gotten off Scot free and as often as not are treated as heroes by their dimwitted supporters.

What Ulster needs is a future. Instead it has a bunch of dreary clowns going glassy eyed with delight at the horrors of the past.

[papasmurf]

I note that thus far none of the usual suspects around here have had anything much to say about it.

Some of the official reports about the incident are still sealed, 50 years have passed and still no sign of them being released to the public domain. So it is not possible for me to comment.

[srb7677]

they probably thought feck that when the mob approached ..

 

And you accuse me of not knowing what I am talking about?

The so-called mob were unarmed civilian civil rights protesters. The facts are in the public domain for all to see, but there will always be those such as yourself who choose to believe bollocks.

And you do it in spite of what Thomas has posted, choosing not to even read it I suspect. There are none so blind - and unashamedly ignorant - as those that will not see.

[T00ts]

Thanks for bringing all this to our attention, Thomas.

I note that thus far none of the usual suspects around here have had anything much to say about it.

Let's be brutally honest here. It was a day in which armed British soldiers fired at and murdered unarmed civilian civil rights protesters, some of them in the back whilst fleeing, one of them in the back whilst already on the ground. And then lied about it. And the entire British establishment were complicit in the resulting cover up.

It was a dark day for Northern Ireland and a dark day for Britain, and undoubtedly so poisoned the atmosphere that it fueled terrorism. The massacre acted as a recruiting seargent for the IRA and undoubtedly empowered them with more manpower and money enabling them to step up their own murderous operations. And this in turn led to loyalist terrorists growing in strength too as a reaction. A quarter of a century of bloodshed ensued before peace of any kind became possible.

What that dark day did was kill the civil rights peaceful protests, and opened the door to the gunmen and bombers to take their place. Yet all the protesters were asking for is what the rest of us on the mainland took for granted, equal and fair access to jobs and housing, and one person one vote. And then the end of internment without trial.

It was not much to ask for. But for asking for it some of them were gunned down. They were murdered by Briish soldiers for demanding what anyone in a free society takes for granted.

Yes, there were those who tried to lob missiles of one kind or another, stones and such. But that does not usually result in being gunned down except in tyrannical regimes. And continuing to fire at people who are fleeing, even shooting in the back someone already on the ground, is utterly inexcusable. When Germans in uniform did such things a quarter century earlier, we called them war criminals and put them on trial.

A day of shame, but alas not the only one and far from being the worst. Look up the Amritsar massacre of 1919. Or the atrocities commited in Kenya in the 1950s, the latter including numerous cases of castration, or beatings to death, and in at least one instance a captive in a prison camp overseen by British officers being roasted alive.

Such things need to be remembered and acknowledged, but all too often we seem as a nation to indulge in collective amnesia, only remembering what we like to believe are the good bits.

And the failure of anyone but you Thomas to acknowledge this is a typical reaction. Let's just pretend it never happened.

That's a bit harsh. Just because it hasn't been mentioned here doesn't mean some of us haven't given it some thought during the day. I certainly have.

[Streetwalker]

Thanks for bringing all this to our attention, Thomas.

I note that thus far none of the usual suspects around here have had anything much to say about it.

Let's be brutally honest here. It was a day in which armed British soldiers fired at and murdered unarmed civilian civil rights protesters, some of them in the back whilst fleeing, one of them in the back whilst already on the ground. And then lied about it. And the entire British establishment were complicit in the resulting cover up.

It was a dark day for Northern Ireland and a dark day for Britain, and undoubtedly so poisoned the atmosphere that it fueled terrorism. The massacre acted as a recruiting seargent for the IRA and undoubtedly empowered them with more manpower and money enabling them to step up their own murderous operations. And this in turn led to loyalist terrorists growing in strength too as a reaction. A quarter of a century of bloodshed ensued before peace of any kind became possible.

Lets be brutally honest here you dont know what your talking about .

The troubles had been ongoing to differing degrees of violence and terrorism since partition . Terrorism didn't need fuelling , it didn't need an excuse  

On the other hand the Brits didnt need an excuse either having been on the receiving end of the murderous IRA scum they probably thought feck that when the mob approached ..

 

[srb7677]

Thanks for bringing all this to our attention, Thomas.

I note that thus far none of the usual suspects around here have had anything much to say about it.

Let's be brutally honest here. It was a day in which armed British soldiers fired at and murdered unarmed civilian civil rights protesters, some of them in the back whilst fleeing, one of them in the back whilst already on the ground. And then lied about it. And the entire British establishment were complicit in the resulting cover up.

It was a dark day for Northern Ireland and a dark day for Britain, and undoubtedly so poisoned the atmosphere that it fueled terrorism. The massacre acted as a recruiting seargent for the IRA and undoubtedly empowered them with more manpower and money enabling them to step up their own murderous operations. And this in turn led to loyalist terrorists growing in strength too as a reaction. A quarter of a century of bloodshed ensued before peace of any kind became possible.

What that dark day did was kill the civil rights peaceful protests, and opened the door to the gunmen and bombers to take their place. Yet all the protesters were asking for is what the rest of us on the mainland took for granted, equal and fair access to jobs and housing, and one person one vote. And then the end of internment without trial. 

It was not much to ask for. But for asking for it some of them were gunned down. They were murdered by Briish soldiers for demanding what anyone in a free society takes for granted.

Yes, there were those who tried to lob missiles of one kind or another, stones and such. But that does not usually result in being gunned down except in tyrannical regimes. And continuing to fire at people who are fleeing, even shooting in the back someone already on the ground, is utterly inexcusable. When Germans in uniform did such things a quarter century earlier, we called them war criminals and put them on trial.

A day of shame, but alas not the only one and far from being the worst. Look up the Amritsar massacre of 1919. Or the atrocities commited in Kenya in the 1950s, the latter including numerous cases of castration, or beatings to death, and in at least one instance a captive in a prison camp overseen by British officers being roasted alive.

Such things need to be remembered and acknowledged, but all too often we seem as a nation to indulge in collective amnesia, only remembering what we like to believe are the good bits.

And the failure of anyone but you Thomas to acknowledge this is a typical reaction. Let's just pretend it never happened.

[Thomas]

Bloody Sunday: David Cameron wanted 'no doubt' over apology

David Cameron has said his apology for Bloody Sunday made it clear there was no doubt what happened was wrong.
When the Saville Inquiry was released in 2010, he apologised for the "unjustified and unjustifiable" deaths.
Ahead of the 50th anniversary, the ex-prime minister said that was a "proper apology" that left no room for doubt.
Thirteen people were shot dead when soldiers opened fire on civil rights demonstrators in Londonderry on 30 January 1972.
After reading the Saville Inquiry into the day's events, Mr Cameron considered how he felt about what he had read, he told BBC Talkback's William Crawley.
"It seemed to me that those words [unjustified and unjustifiable] best summed it up," he said.

"You couldn't leave any doubt.
"Unjustified and unjustifiable means let's not go on arguing about this, what happened was wrong, full stop, end of and let's make a proper apology.
"Sometimes with these sort of events politicians - and I can be guilty of this - qualify the apology or shade around the edges.
"On this occasion it needed to be absolutely direct and clear."

Meanwhile, Taoiseach (Irish Prime Minister) Micheál Martin has said the events of Bloody Sunday were indelibly imprinted on the minds of families across the island of Ireland.

On Sunday he will lay a wreath at a memorial service in Derry - the first serving taoiseach to do so.



https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-60157409

[Thomas]

iIn 1972, a bullet from a rifle belonging to a man we have come to know as 'Soldier F' ripped through my 31 year-old uncle's body and changed our family forever.

Patrick " the Skelper" Doherty was shot in the back as he attempted to crawl to safety on the darkest day in Derry's history. You can see the belt he wore on the day in a museum in the Bogside. A perfect semi-circle blasted through the leather. A perfect shot. The belt lay in my granny's attic for years, precious evidence for a criminal court case that would never come.

My uncle Paddy's last words were reportedly: "Don't let me die on my own." Which he did. Far from his six children, face down in the street, while another father of six, Bernard McGuigan, who waved a white handkerchief in an attempt to come to Paddy's aid was shot through the eye and killed on the spot.

This intolerable cruelty, this horrific violence, which happened 19 years before I was born, has cast a shadow over my life, moulded me in its image and made me who I am today. It inspired me to pursue the truth for a living.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/spotlight/arid-40795446.html

[Thomas]

letter the UVF sent to james wrays parents mocking his murder.....