Good deal or too many concessions?

[GerryT]

Gerry - do you think it's realistic to fear that if a deal like the current one goes through, there could be a resurgence of violence started by Unionist terrorists?  Most of the talk seems to centre on the IRA returning and suchlike, but could it also be the other way around that actually it's Unionist violence that could trigger a return to conflict?

Most definitely. The GFA allowed people in one community to identify as Irish, the other as British. Talking to younger people they havea view that they are neither, that they are Northern Irish. But the GFA did bring a delicate balance that allowed both communities to live beside each other relatively peacefully. It might take another 40 yrs but with time the divide is getting smaller.



Any perceived change to that balance could very easily cause one side to feel aggrieved, that could lead to violence. This is why clear communication is so important, people need to understand the proposal and what it means to them.



My understanding is the republican side will be happy enough as the border in IRL stays open and trade North/South is not affected. The Unionist community should be happy enough as the trade between GB and NI will remain tariff free, only trade from GB to ROI will see tariffs. But there will be checks at the Irish sea, this is probably the only thing needed for unionists to perceive a break between their community and GB.



The difference being the nationalist community isn't creating this divide, it's GB doing this so they can pursue their Brexit goal

[Javert]

Sinn Fein are basically a political wing that was born in 1900, one of its primary aims was to passively separate Ireland from the UK, Sinn Fein elected ministers would not recognise Westminster and would strive to set up an Irish parliament to make decisions locally in Ireland, Sinn Fein meaning "we ourselves" embodied that goal. Sinn Fein have since then always being an Irish political party that does not recognise the UK's involvement in politics on the island of Ireland, that's the manifest they get elected on and they will never get involved in UK politics. They take their seats in the NI assembly but refrain from getting involved in Westminster. I don't think any financial incentive would make them change from that cornerstone of their party.



SInn Fein got bad press when IRA members gave up the armed fight for freedom and mover towards a political way as part of Sinn Fein. The DUP are the opposite, they will do anything to stop the reunification of north/south Ireland. It's why they have blocked things like the Irish language act which would recognise Irish in NI, similar such acts are present in Scotland and Wales, but not NI. Funnily enough this is one of the big stumbling blocks that keep the NI assembly from sitting.

Gerry - do you think it's realistic to fear that if a deal like the current one goes through, there could be a resurgence of violence started by Unionist terrorists?  Most of the talk seems to centre on the IRA returning and suchlike, but could it also be the other way around that actually it's Unionist violence that could trigger a return to conflict?

[GerryT]

Told you I know very little about politics in Northern Ireland. Any idea why Sinn Fein didn't get involved beyond the lack if financial incentive that was given to the DUP?

Sinn Fein are basically a political wing that was born in 1900, one of its primary aims was to passively separate Ireland from the UK, Sinn Fein elected ministers would not recognise Westminster and would strive to set up an Irish parliament to make decisions locally in Ireland, Sinn Fein meaning "we ourselves" embodied that goal. Sinn Fein have since then always being an Irish political party that does not recognise the UK's involvement in politics on the island of Ireland, that's the manifest they get elected on and they will never get involved in UK politics. They take their seats in the NI assembly but refrain from getting involved in Westminster. I don't think any financial incentive would make them change from that cornerstone of their party.



SInn Fein got bad press when IRA members gave up the armed fight for freedom and mover towards a political way as part of Sinn Fein. The DUP are the opposite, they will do anything to stop the reunification of north/south Ireland. It's why they have blocked things like the Irish language act which would recognise Irish in NI, similar such acts are present in Scotland and Wales, but not NI. Funnily enough this is one of the big stumbling blocks that keep the NI assembly from sitting.

[Ciaphas]

The DUP aren't dominant, they represent a relatively small percentage of people in NI. Sinn Fein don't take their seats at Westminster which leaves the DUP to control the UK. But in NI, the DUP have 28 seats and Sinn Feinn have 27, there are 90 seats in the assembly. People vote on a unionist/nationalist bias which is pretty much 50/50 when you look at the full assembly, a real melting pot.

Told you I know very little about politics in Northern Ireland. Any idea why Sinn Fein didn't get involved beyond the lack if financial incentive that was given to the DUP?

[GerryT]

Thank you for taking the time to write this informative post. My knowledge of Northern Ireland politics is pretty limited and I had been somewhat baffled by the DUP's dominance.

The DUP aren't dominant, they represent a relatively small percentage of people in NI. Sinn Fein don't take their seats at Westminster which leaves the DUP to control the UK. But in NI, the DUP have 28 seats and Sinn Feinn have 27, there are 90 seats in the assembly. People vote on a unionist/nationalist bias which is pretty much 50/50 when you look at the full assembly, a real melting pot.

[Sheepy]

Was away for a long weekend and didn't see this.  The thing to always remember about the DUP is that they operate on an almost wondrously simplistic ticket — they will oppose a United Ireland at any cost. This is how — despite the fact that their social views are almost laughably backward, despite the fact that they are notoriously difficult to reason with, and despite their propensity for financial impropriety — they still manage to win elections. They have carefully cultivated a singular electoral ideology that, if you are a Unionist, a vote for anyone other than the DUP is effectively a vote for Sinn Fein. They portray themselves as the only party with the will and mentality to fight Sinn Fein's perceived strategy to first 'Gaelicise' Northern Ireland and subsequently to have it rejoin the rest of Ireland.



So, when the DUP support something, you can be fairly certain that (unless it's something which corresponds to evangelical Christianity like opposing gay marriage and abortion), it is based on a belief that it will make a United Ireland less likely. For example, if you take their stance against the Irish language (a stance which is a significant part of the reason why there is no functioning Executive at Stormont) anyone who actually believes this stance has anything remotely to do with concerns about expenditure on bilingual road signs etc is deluding themselves significantly.  The DUP hate the Irish language on the most simple of premises; the Irish language 'promotes' the cultural unity of Ireland and therefore potentially the political unity of Ireland.



They saw Brexit as an opportunity to drive a wedge in the economic relationship with the Republic which they would seem to believe has become uncomfortably close since the 1998 Agreement. If Northern Ireland left the EU this would mean diverging from the Republic and would make a United Ireland much more difficult to be achieved. Unfortunately, what they hadn't considered was that strong alignment with the Republic was keeping Irish Nationalism at bay and therefore, ironically, making the question of unification less pertinent than it is now.

See we always go the long way around,who in their right mind would want any part of it.

[Ciaphas]

Was away for a long weekend and didn't see this.  The thing to always remember about the DUP is that they operate on an almost wondrously simplistic ticket — they will oppose a United Ireland at any cost. This is how — despite the fact that their social views are almost laughably backward, despite the fact that they are notoriously difficult to reason with, and despite their propensity for financial impropriety — they still manage to win elections. They have carefully cultivated a singular electoral ideology that, if you are a Unionist, a vote for anyone other than the DUP is effectively a vote for Sinn Fein. They portray themselves as the only party with the will and mentality to fight Sinn Fein's perceived strategy to first 'Gaelicise' Northern Ireland and subsequently to have it rejoin the rest of Ireland.



So, when the DUP support something, you can be fairly certain that (unless it's something which corresponds to evangelical Christianity like opposing gay marriage and abortion), it is based on a belief that it will make a United Ireland less likely. For example, if you take their stance against the Irish language (a stance which is a significant part of the reason why there is no functioning Executive at Stormont) anyone who actually believes this stance has anything remotely to do with concerns about expenditure on bilingual road signs etc is deluding themselves significantly.  The DUP hate the Irish language on the most simple of premises; the Irish language 'promotes' the cultural unity of Ireland and therefore potentially the political unity of Ireland.



They saw Brexit as an opportunity to drive a wedge in the economic relationship with the Republic which they would seem to believe has become uncomfortably close since the 1998 Agreement. If Northern Ireland left the EU this would mean diverging from the Republic and would make a United Ireland much more difficult to be achieved. Unfortunately, what they hadn't considered was that strong alignment with the Republic was keeping Irish Nationalism at bay and therefore, ironically, making the question of unification less pertinent than it is now.

Thank you for taking the time to write this informative post. My knowledge of Northern Ireland politics is pretty limited and I had been somewhat baffled by the DUP's dominance.

[Conchúr]

An insightful comment. I'd not previously considered the DUP being motivated by driving a wedge between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland but given their historical opposition to the Good Friday Agreement it seems a reasonable explanation for their back of the government.

Was away for a long weekend and didn't see this.  The thing to always remember about the DUP is that they operate on an almost wondrously simplistic ticket — they will oppose a United Ireland at any cost. This is how — despite the fact that their social views are almost laughably backward, despite the fact that they are notoriously difficult to reason with, and despite their propensity for financial impropriety — they still manage to win elections. They have carefully cultivated a singular electoral ideology that, if you are a Unionist, a vote for anyone other than the DUP is effectively a vote for Sinn Fein. They portray themselves as the only party with the will and mentality to fight Sinn Fein's perceived strategy to first 'Gaelicise' Northern Ireland and subsequently to have it rejoin the rest of Ireland.



So, when the DUP support something, you can be fairly certain that (unless it's something which corresponds to evangelical Christianity like opposing gay marriage and abortion), it is based on a belief that it will make a United Ireland less likely. For example, if you take their stance against the Irish language (a stance which is a significant part of the reason why there is no functioning Executive at Stormont) anyone who actually believes this stance has anything remotely to do with concerns about expenditure on bilingual road signs etc is deluding themselves significantly.  The DUP hate the Irish language on the most simple of premises; the Irish language 'promotes' the cultural unity of Ireland and therefore potentially the political unity of Ireland.



They saw Brexit as an opportunity to drive a wedge in the economic relationship with the Republic which they would seem to believe has become uncomfortably close since the 1998 Agreement. If Northern Ireland left the EU this would mean diverging from the Republic and would make a United Ireland much more difficult to be achieved. Unfortunately, what they hadn't considered was that strong alignment with the Republic was keeping Irish Nationalism at bay and therefore, ironically, making the question of unification less pertinent than it is now.

[Cassie]

This is not the deal it is the leaving framework

The deal on trade etc which are the most important issues are still to be discussed

I think the ERG lost sight of that in the early voting on May's WA that's why some voted for it in the end, but it was too late.

[T00ts]

This is not the deal it is the leaving framework

The deal on trade etc which are the most important issues are still to be discussed

Exactly!  :hattip

[Desertdan]

This is not the deal it is the leaving framework

The deal on trade etc which are the most important issues are still to be discussed

[GerryT]

The DUP were well warned what Brexit would potentially mean for Northern Ireland and they campaigned for it anyway.  The Union with Great Britain had never been as secure as it was from the Good Friday Agreement onward. The Irish population of Northern Ireland had been appeased with recognition of their Irish nationality and citizenship rights, as well as the fact that the free-flowing border meant that they could interact with the whole island socially and commercially. What's more, Nationalists had effectively legitimised Northern Ireland's place in the UK by agreeing that it was not Irish territory by any right, but its status would hinge on popular consent.  



The DUP have severely miscalculated their stance on Brexit.  The dogs in the street knew that the DUP never gave a toss about EU membership itself — they never really cared about sovereignty or free movement — they simply thought that leaving would create a wider regulatory and economic chasm between North and South, which would make any future reunification more difficult and less palatable. It is looking increasingly likely that this is going to backfire.



The DUP took a good sandwich, hovered over it, and took a shite right on top of the lettuce. Now they don't want to take a bite.

An insightful comment. I'd not previously considered the DUP being motivated by driving a wedge between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland but given their historical opposition to the Good Friday Agreement it seems a reasonable explanation for their back of the government.

That's all the DUP want. Anything that separates NI from the ROI and brings it closer to GB. If that really hurts NI or BG they don't care one bit, number 1 goal and only goal, float NI to BG.

[Ciaphas]

The DUP were well warned what Brexit would potentially mean for Northern Ireland and they campaigned for it anyway.  The Union with Great Britain had never been as secure as it was from the Good Friday Agreement onward. The Irish population of Northern Ireland had been appeased with recognition of their Irish nationality and citizenship rights, as well as the fact that the free-flowing border meant that they could interact with the whole island socially and commercially. What's more, Nationalists had effectively legitimised Northern Ireland's place in the UK by agreeing that it was not Irish territory by any right, but its status would hinge on popular consent.  



The DUP have severely miscalculated their stance on Brexit.  The dogs in the street knew that the DUP never gave a toss about EU membership itself — they never really cared about sovereignty or free movement — they simply thought that leaving would create a wider regulatory and economic chasm between North and South, which would make any future reunification more difficult and less palatable. It is looking increasingly likely that this is going to backfire.



The DUP took a good sandwich, hovered over it, and took a shite right on top of the lettuce. Now they don't want to take a bite.

An insightful comment. I'd not previously considered the DUP being motivated by driving a wedge between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland but given their historical opposition to the Good Friday Agreement it seems a reasonable explanation for their back of the government.

[Nick]

The DUP were well warned what Brexit would potentially mean for Northern Ireland and they campaigned for it anyway.  The Union with Great Britain had never been as secure as it was from the Good Friday Agreement onward. The Irish population of Northern Ireland had been appeased with recognition of their Irish nationality and citizenship rights, as well as the fact that the free-flowing border meant that they could interact with the whole island socially and commercially. What's more, Nationalists had effectively legitimised Northern Ireland's place in the UK by agreeing that it was not Irish territory by any right, but its status would hinge on popular consent.  



The DUP have severely miscalculated their stance on Brexit.  The dogs in the street knew that the DUP never gave a toss about EU membership itself — they never really cared about sovereignty or free movement — they simply thought that leaving would create a wider regulatory and economic chasm between North and South, which would make any future reunification more difficult and less palatable. It is looking increasingly likely that this is going to backfire.



The DUP took a good sandwich, hovered over it, and took a shite right on top of the lettuce. Now they don't want to take a bite.

Nice opener 😂

[cromwell]

Hi Conor glad you joined us  :hattip