Coronavirus being left off english death certificates

[Scott777]

What I haven't found so far is the data behind that - presumably the excess deaths that didn't mention coronavirus must have the death certificate data collected - when this data is available we'll be able to see what's going on beyond Covid-19 but this is a data anlaysis exercise - we need to see what there the deaths by COD and try to figure out the excess deaths by primary cause and by secondary causes.  I'm sure this will come out eventually.



I expect that some of this will be Covid-19 related deaths not attributed correctly, and some will be deaths relating to knock on effects, for example people having a heart attack being too scared to seek medical help until it's too late.

Perhaps excess deaths due to no place in hospital for cancer treatment, etc.  And accidents - cannot get an ambulance.

[Javert]

∆∆∆

I rest my case.

I believe Science will not cover up findings or any mistakes when all the data (including death records) are analysed, but it make use of all info to advance medicine. Meanwhile I believe I'm being given all the salient information that affects me, and on which I can makes judgements for my future.

I have no interest in Open Democracy, finger pointing and conspiracy theories...

Right - but by then it may be too late to hold anyone who was negligent to account.  There is often a tendency to try to cover up and delay any inquiry into these things until the people responsible have moved on.  Of course, it could well be that everyone has completely acted in good faith at all times, but, if not, open communication is required in order to learn the correct lessons.  This includes admitting when mistakes have been made.



My personal experience is that actually people tend to be ok with it if you admit you made a mistake.  It's when you don't admit it or try to cover it up that it becomes a bigger issue.

[patman post]

∆∆∆

I rest my case.

I believe Science will not cover up findings or any mistakes when all the data (including death records) are analysed, but it make use of all info to advance medicine. Meanwhile I believe I'm being given all the salient information that affects me, and on which I can makes judgements for my future.

I have no interest in Open Democracy, finger pointing and conspiracy theories...

[Javert]

∆∆∆



I have to ask — why does it matter to you in such detail at the moment?

The information will be collected and eventually analysed for all the purposes where it will be useful to know. Meanwhile, the bald calculation of number of deaths in this period (week, month, quarter, etc) over deaths in the same period a year ago (or five, or ten years ago) give a ball park figure for the Covid-19 impact...

It doesn't actually matter right now, but it matters in the long run because it will part of the inquiry for lessons learned on future pandemics, and on whether the government's decisions were truly based on science or partly based on ideology or other factors.  Also last week, half the excess deaths recorded were not classed as Covid-19 related, which to me seemed pretty unbelievable.



The other reason is this:



https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/exclusive-nhs-using-flawed-covid-19-test-missing-25-of-positives/">https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opende ... positives/">https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/exclusive-nhs-using-flawed-covid-19-test-missing-25-of-positives/



The government has trumpeted from the start that "our test is the best in the world" and "no test is better than a bad test" (ring any bells?).  Well, there is some evidence coming forward that our test that we insisted on going it alone for, is worse than the commercially available ones, and that it has a 25% error rate.  Surely quetsions should be answered, maybe not now, but later, about why that's happening?



In a crisis, having transparent communications is important.  If the government and CMO and CSO were up front about testing error rates and told us about it openly (it's not a secret in the medical community), it probably wouldn't be an issue.  It becomes an issue when they try to cover it up, without even having a good reason to do so.

[patman post]

∆∆∆



I have to ask — why does it matter to you in such detail at the moment?

The information will be collected and eventually analysed for all the purposes where it will be useful to know. Meanwhile, the bald calculation of number of deaths in this period (week, month, quarter, etc) over deaths in the same period a year ago (or five, or ten years ago) give a ball park figure for the Covid-19 impact...

[Javert]

Just heard on 5 Live that deaths in England and Wales have risen sharply above what would be expected, hitting a 20-year high.

The Office for National Statistics said there were 18,500 deaths in the week up to 10 April — about 8,000 more than is normal at this time of year.

More than 6,200 were linked to coronavirus, a sixth of which were outside of hospital.

But deaths from other causes also increased, suggesting the lockdown may be having an indirect impact on health.



Cause of death must be being recorded to make this analysis...

What I haven't found so far is the data behind that - presumably the excess deaths that didn't mention coronavirus must have the death certificate data collected - when this data is available we'll be able to see what's going on beyond Covid-19 but this is a data anlaysis exercise - we need to see what there the deaths by COD and try to figure out the excess deaths by primary cause and by secondary causes.  I'm sure this will come out eventually.



I expect that some of this will be Covid-19 related deaths not attributed correctly, and some will be deaths relating to knock on effects, for example people having a heart attack being too scared to seek medical help until it's too late.

[patman post]

Just heard on 5 Live that deaths in England and Wales have risen sharply above what would be expected, hitting a 20-year high.

The Office for National Statistics said there were 18,500 deaths in the week up to 10 April — about 8,000 more than is normal at this time of year.

More than 6,200 were linked to coronavirus, a sixth of which were outside of hospital.

But deaths from other causes also increased, suggesting the lockdown may be having an indirect impact on health.



Cause of death must be being recorded to make this analysis...

[Thomas]

I'm probably going to regret this, but so could you point us to a website that you believe only reports stories of complete truth with no distortion?

You need to read scotts quote above.

Evidence doesn't work in the negative - you can't make something evident that doesn't exist.  

::



This is a guy who has just spent the best part of 11 pages on this thread arguing the exact opposite to what he is lecturing you in the above quote , until i gave him an object lesson on that very mantra of trying to prove a negative  , while he has squirmed through countless posts and pages trying to shift the obligation of burden of proof from himself as the party in dispute while spectacularly failing to provide sufficient warrant for his wacky position.



I had a wee bit of time to kill over the last day or so javert , but the conclusion can only be you are debating with a W.U.M , or a twenty year old hash head that stoned out his nut he is paranoid beyond all reason.

[Thomas]

I'm probably going to regret this.....................

 ::

The truth is out there javert...............somehwere.......

[Scott777]

I'm probably going to regret this, but so could you point us to a website that you believe only reports stories of complete truth with no distortion?

I can point you to lots of websites that are much more likely report the truth, but they are not stories (if you want stories, you can try Roald Dahl, or someone like that).  They are called scientific journals, etc.  I never expect absolute truth, I doubt that exists.

[Javert]

I hope you'll excuse me if I don't trust these MSM reports.  As I have pointed out before, they have a very very long history of distorting the facts.  I asked for evidence, and MSM isn't that.



Evidence doesn't work in the negative - you can't make something evident that doesn't exist.  If someone has no condition, there will be no evidence of a condition.  You can't have evidence of 'no condition'.

I'm probably going to regret this, but so could you point us to a website that you believe only reports stories of complete truth with no distortion?

[Scott777]

Yes - nearly every day on the news like BBC, Sky and the newspapers they report on individuals who have died with no known existing health conditions.   It's not hard to find these reports.



Also, as I keep pointing out, it's not just the question of who is dying - a significant portion of people with Covid-19 who don't die, require significant periods of time in hospital, including sometimes ICU and ventilation, in order to survive.  If they were not hospitalised most of them would die.



Many of those people then require significant time to recover at home.  Personally I know my wife was in hospital for 8 days and she has been signed off work for 12 weeks and told she is unlikely to feel up to doing much for at least a month.  That's already people who don't even end up in ICU.  People who spent 2 weeks on a ventilator, some of them without significant health conditions or at least with a long life expectancy ahead of them, will take many months or even more than a year to recover.  



Do you have evidence that nobody without underlying health conditions has ever been in ICU or died from it?

I hope you'll excuse me if I don't trust these MSM reports.  As I have pointed out before, they have a very very long history of distorting the facts.  I asked for evidence, and MSM isn't that.



Evidence doesn't work in the negative - you can't make something evident that doesn't exist.  If someone has no condition, there will be no evidence of a condition.  You can't have evidence of 'no condition'.

[Javert]

Do you have any evidence of anyone dying with CV19, without a single other condition, or any history of stuff like chemotherapy?

Yes - nearly every day on the news like BBC, Sky and the newspapers they report on individuals who have died with no known existing health conditions.   It's not hard to find these reports.



Also, as I keep pointing out, it's not just the question of who is dying - a significant portion of people with Covid-19 who don't die, require significant periods of time in hospital, including sometimes ICU and ventilation, in order to survive.  If they were not hospitalised most of them would die.



Many of those people then require significant time to recover at home.  Personally I know my wife was in hospital for 8 days and she has been signed off work for 12 weeks and told she is unlikely to feel up to doing much for at least a month.  That's already people who don't even end up in ICU.  People who spent 2 weeks on a ventilator, some of them without significant health conditions or at least with a long life expectancy ahead of them, will take many months or even more than a year to recover.  



Do you have evidence that nobody without underlying health conditions has ever been in ICU or died from it?

[Scott777]

Given that we know that in rare cases, Covid-19 is fatal even in people with no known or detectable health conditions,



To me it's pretty simple - if the person had Covid-19 when they died, and there is no other clear explanation for them dying at that precise moment, then it's should be clearly on the death certificate.  You can't claim that the cause of death was "having a bit weaker immune system than some other people".

Do you have any evidence of anyone dying with CV19, without a single other condition, or any history of stuff like chemotherapy?

[Javert]

Please don't assume to know that I want.  I want to know the truth.



I don't agree with your assessment, about people who would have survived.  Imagine that Covid-19 is merely a trigger.  There may also be many triggers that might make you very ill, if you have a faulty system.  It is possible that your own immune system is killing you, triggered by Covid-19.  That's important, because you have to find a solution.  Removing CV19 from the equation may change very little.  But stopping all the self-abuse may make all the difference.

In this case, Covid-19 would be clearly listed as one of the causes on the death certificate, in fact it would be listed as the immediate cause of death according to what I understood in that earlier document.  It would then list the other factors and conditions.



Given that we know that in rare cases, Covid-19 is fatal even in people with no known or detectable health conditions, there's also not way to know the other way around, if they didn't have those other conditions, it might have killed them anyway.



To me it's pretty simple - if the person had Covid-19 when they died, and there is no other clear explanation for them dying at that precise moment, then it's should be clearly on the death certificate.  You can't claim that the cause of death was "having a bit weaker immune system than some other people".



I suppose if people are killed in a plane crash, the cause of death would be "taking too many flights"