The ones who walk away from Omelas

[Nalaar]

No I reject your premise, we are forced against our will to do things that indirectly and directly hurt others..



Some try to change life for those people, and that is a good thing, they do it on all our behalf as not everyone is capable of it.



Capiche?

Some things, sure, but no one has ever been forced to buy an iPad.

[T00ts]

Do you think you are guilty?

 ::  :: Good try. I am like many many others who do as much as they can willingly and without being pushed into some sort of guilt trip. Might I suggest a new reading list that might begin to set you straight on your outlook on life?

[Borg Refinery]

You could chose to live a life that is much less misery full for another person to support. However that would mostly likely make your life much worse.



We make choices everyday to promote our happiness over someone else's misery. I think we should be honest and accepting of that.

No I reject your premise, we are forced against our will to do things that indirectly and directly hurt others..



Some try to change life for those people, and that is a good thing, they do it on all our behalf as not everyone is capable of it.



Capiche?

[Nalaar]

:hattip  :thup:



It really isn't our fault that we are FORCED to rely on cheap labourers in China for everything, or to use plastic..and so on and so forth, only rich people have a choice of types of consumption. We can't all go and live as luddites in the woods, the powers that be forcibly subject us to their laws even if we wanted to.



Trying to make us complicit in things beyond our control is very manipulative and deceptive imho. I really do not like Taoism out of all religions, it is the one I find most repulsive.

You could chose to live a life that is much less misery full for another person to support. However that would mostly likely make your life much worse.



We make choices everyday to promote our happiness over someone else's misery. I think we should be honest and accepting of that.

[Nalaar]

No. That's a game to make all guilty

Do you think you are guilty?

[Borg Refinery]

No. That's a game to make all guilty, to take all the human efforts we make and trivialise them as worthless. Much as JoG hates it I do believe the power of good over evil and yes the battle is still being fought. I also profoundly believe in a second coming and a judgement day and yes eternal life. I find the assumption that all misery will be forgotten soon enough disturbing. We are not omnipotent. We are unable to fight for every individual in the world or even the country, but even if we could no doubt there are those who would gladly move their goalposts to enable a further broadside at passing the guilt to one and all again.



Some live by the promotion of the uselessness of mankind. It is a falsehood and originates in only one place.

 :hattip  :thup:



It really isn't our fault that we are FORCED to rely on cheap labourers in China for everything, or to use plastic..and so on and so forth, only rich people have a choice of types of consumption. We can't all go and live as luddites in the woods, the powers that be forcibly subject us to their laws even if we wanted to.



Trying to make us complicit in things beyond our control is very manipulative and deceptive imho. I really do not like Taoism out of all religions, it is the one I find most repulsive.

[T00ts]

Welcome! You have just met the child in the cellar of Omelas.

Be content to know that you will soon forget about them, as we all do, as we all must.

No. That's a game to make all guilty, to take all the human efforts we make and trivialise them as worthless. Much as JoG hates it I do believe the power of good over evil and yes the battle is still being fought. I also profoundly believe in a second coming and a judgement day and yes eternal life. I find the assumption that all misery will be forgotten soon enough disturbing. We are not omnipotent. We are unable to fight for every individual in the world or even the country, but even if we could no doubt there are those who would gladly move their goalposts to enable a further broadside at passing the guilt to one and all again.



Some live by the promotion of the uselessness of mankind. It is a falsehood and originates in only one place.

[johnofgwent]

I remember once reading a description of an iPad, it went something like this -



'Consider the beauty of an iPad, the technological and engineering marvel that allows me to connect to an endless stream of information, and knowledge. In fact you can sit down with the amazing invention, and learn from it how the company which manufactures the iPad you are holding had to install nets around the sides of its building. Because the workers in these factories were regularly throwing themselves off the roof tops because their life was so miserable that they would rather be dead. Did a worker who oversaw your iPad kill themselves?'



Much of our lives in the U.K. is built on the misery of others.

As I said in my earlier post there may be those who stand in ignorance of the abuse done to their own but this fable refers to a scenario where the persons enjoying the good life do so in full and certain knowledge of the abuse done to that child.



Much of our life may be built on the misery of others. A certain mentally challenged eco activist for example seems to have no problem with the abomination that is the electric vehicle's batteries. I drive a diesel. I have on several occasions said what needs to be done to that girl and her abusive manipulative parents. But she is not British.

[Nalaar]

Good grief. I was feeling a bit down before I sat at the keyboard, that has just about finished me off.

Welcome! You have just met the child in the cellar of Omelas.

Be content to know that you will soon forget about them, as we all do, as we all must.

[T00ts]

I remember once reading a description of an iPad, it went something like this -



'Consider the beauty of an iPad, the technological and engineering marvel that allows me to connect to an endless stream of information, and knowledge. In fact you can sit down with the amazing invention, and learn from it how the company which manufactures the iPad you are holding had to install nets around the sides of its building. Because the workers in these factories were regularly throwing themselves off the roof tops because their life was so miserable that they would rather be dead. Did a worker who oversaw your iPad kill themselves?'



Much of our lives in the U.K. is built on the misery of others.

Good grief. I was feeling a bit down before I sat at the keyboard, that has just about finished me off.

[Nalaar]

I know of no person whose utopian lifestyle is fuelled by the suffering of an abused child.



I know there are plenty of abused children and I know those in power have sought to leave them in that plight on many occasions, but the united kingdoms citizens do not require such abuse to prosper.



They may be ignorant of such abuse but I am unaware of any degree to which our wealth, health, well being and civilised status requires the citizens knowingly condone such abuse.



As such the fable bears no relation to reality, like most of the stuff you post.



What makes you feel there is the slightest relevance to reality in the rantings of this author ?

I remember once reading a description of an iPad, it went something like this -



'Consider the beauty of an iPad, the technological and engineering marvel that allows me to connect to an endless stream of information, and knowledge. In fact you can sit down with the amazing invention, and learn from it how the company which manufactures the iPad you are holding had to install nets around the sides of its building. Because the workers in these factories were regularly throwing themselves off the roof tops because their life was so miserable that they would rather be dead. Did a worker who oversaw your iPad kill themselves?'



Much of our lives in the U.K. is built on the misery of others.

[johnofgwent]

The concept that we *need* evil, to see good, we *need* misery for joy, the people of Omelas *need* the child to suffer.

I reject this utterly.



I have known misery and joy in equal measure.



Some suggest that the joyous times are enriched or enhanced by having experienced misery. That is bullshit.



I had no need to see Emma fight for breath that never came to enjoy having to demonstrate my cricket fielding skills when a bloodied, slimy and very soggy Jennifer shot into this world like a sodding cannonball and flew right off the edge of the delivery trolley heading floorwards literally propelling herself with her arms like a marine sliding through a muddy water filled trench under barbed wire ...



The midwife was somewhat shocked to put it bluntly.



The anaesthestst who had been summoned because it was thought moira might need a little intervention was obviously a cricketing man



For as I dived for the floor and reached it before madam did, grabbed her and stood up covered in grunge and bits of biological piping, I yelled 'OWZAT' and he cried back 'OUT. DEFINITELY OUT. Now, off to the beer tent with you"



As i have intimated, having had to be resussed twice and experienced naught but blackness and nothingness in the intervening period I am even more convinced than I was that you get one chance in this world and when it's over that's it lights out your gone NOTHING.



It irritates me hugely that a significant number of religions push the doctrine of putting up with all manner of hardship.and evil in return for rewards in an afterlife I believe nonexistent.

[johnofgwent]

How do you think it compares to the structure of our society?

I know of no person whose utopian lifestyle is fuelled by the suffering of an abused child.



I know there are plenty of abused children and I know those in power have sought to leave them in that plight on many occasions, but the united kingdoms citizens do not require such abuse to prosper.



They may be ignorant of such abuse but I am unaware of any degree to which our wealth, health, well being and civilised status requires the citizens knowingly condone such abuse.



As such the fable bears no relation to reality, like most of the stuff you post.



What makes you feel there is the slightest relevance to reality in the rantings of this author ?

[Nalaar]

The premise is perhaps that no-one deserves to be happy.

Maybe, but I don't think many people agree with that. People want to be happy, and if that requires the misery of others then so be it.  

In a perfect world, as some would see it, there would be no pain, no sorrow, no cruelty, no hate but the whole point of being here is to experience the difference between good and evil. To learn what is happy and sad, to know joy and pain. If there was no evil, no sadness, no pain how would we learn to make the choices that we have to make to fight the constant and currently increased efforts of the Devil?

I think the short story covers this point well - "Their tears at the bitter injustice dry when they begin to perceive the terrible justice of reality, and to accept it. Yet it is their tears and anger, the trying of their generosity and the acceptance of their helplessness, which are perhaps the true source of the splendor of their lives. Theirs is no vapid, irresponsible happiness. They know that they, like the child, are not free. They know compassion. It is the existence of the child, and their knowledge of its existence, that makes possible the nobility of their architecture, the poignancy of their music, the profundity of their science. It is because of the child that they are so gentle with children. They know that if the wretched one were not there snivelling in the dark, the other one, the flute-player, could make no joyful music as the young riders line up in their beauty for the race in the sunlight of the first morning of summer."



The concept that we *need* evil, to see good, we *need* misery for joy, the people of Omelas *need* the child to suffer.

[T00ts]

I think we instinctively reject the idea that Omelas is a good place. We also reject the idea that the citizens are good people. However I think we struggle to be critical of them without being much more critical of our society, and ourselves individually.



Asking if the happiness of each citizen of Omelas is worth the misery of one, imposes on us to ask what our happiness is worth. How much misery is worth your happiness?

The premise is perhaps that no-one deserves to be happy. That life should not continue until everyone is happy. Life is not like that. The trials and tests in this life are many and varied and can range from the neglected/ill-treated child to the otherwise 'good' person experiencing pain and trauma for most of their lives.

In a perfect world, as some would see it, there would be no pain, no sorrow, no cruelty, no hate but the whole point of being here is to experience the difference between good and evil. To learn what is happy and sad, to know joy and pain. If there was no evil, no sadness, no pain how would we learn to make the choices that we have to make to fight the constant and currently increased efforts of the Devil?



The child is ill treated because the person doing it is evil/cruel/mentally sick. If we are confronted with the situation we deal with it to the best of our ability. If it is hidden and unknown then it is an impossible situation to remedy. Perhaps we should search every cellar before we go out and enjoy ourselves. Maybe that should be done today before they hold their street parties.