VE Day +75

[Thomas]

Putting the past behind us ignores the importance of history,Ford said history was bunk,perhaps it is if you want to continue to make the same mistakes.

Cromwell , i agree with you from a historical perspective of the importance of history , and the old adage of those who forget are doomed to repeat , so why then is your country among the biggest silencers of unpalatable history and  spreader of romantic propaganda of a world that never existed?



You selectively cherry pick parts of history to suit your narrative , while ignoring or deliberately attemtping to delete that which doesnt suit your narrative. Your whole country , ie the uk state , is built on fairy stories while ignoring the evil you spread across 62 countries around the world. When forced to confront it , your countrymen retort that you were only "civilising " these nations. Hitler thought the same too about civilising europe and cleansing it of the jewish people.



Every despot in history has thought he was leading a noble crusade against evil doers.



Scottish irish and welsh kids were forced over the years to learn "english/british history" and the english language to the detriment of their own , with the feeble argument our cultures and languages and history were irrelevant.



We had the magna carta , a norman french document relative to english and english history only being paraded across scottish tv screeens while the anniversary of the declaration of arbroath , one of scotlands main political documents  , passing by largely irrelevantly by the british controlled scottish media.



We had the worldwide tv series hit "outlander" being banned by david cameron from tv screens in scotland in case it inflammed scottish nationalism. We had the general roar of anguish and outrage when some daft american film in the nineties starring mel gibson  replaying events of some middle ages scottish hero hung drawn and quartered by the anglo normans.



We had the glasgow labour controlled council deliberately trying to suppress the remains in sighthill cemetary of the 19th century scottish radicals who rebelled against the british government in the last known armed uprising on uk soil on the orders of their london masters.



...and you talk about the importance of not ignoring history?



If its not british nationalists propaganda , then the golden rule is it is indeed ignored.

[Thomas]

Scots have always been over represented in the Army. Something like 15-20%. Which perhaps says something about who joins up and why. Even as little as 25 years ago that was the case, and still is to an extent. Its always the working class kids, the ones from deprived areas and backgrounds that end up there. Not a little because they are the ones who make natural soldiers.

You contradict yourself here deppity.Sorry if im misunderstanind you here ,but At first you say scots are over represented in the british army , and always have been , with the insinuation if im reading you right that somehow this signifies loyalty to britian with the mass amounts joining up , then you go onto say its mainly young poor boys from working class backgrounds. Could it not show that it was merely young poor boys at one stage looking for a way to gain a trade , see a bit of the world and drag themselves out of poverty rather than a sense of loyalty to a country?



Half of scotland wants independence , and i would imagine large amounts of scots soldiers in the brit army want it too. I know for a fact , i have many family and friends still serving who want scottish independence.



..and you are right , going way back to the 17th century , scotland was forced to supply a disproportionate amount of soldiers to serve in the brit  army. Wiiliam of orange demanded the scottish parliament supply and fund 45% of the solldiers for his army in the last decade of the 17th century. You know and i know there is a difference about joining up for vast social  , economic and political reasons to insinuating people do it out of loyalty to the british crown.



We were constantly dragged into englands wars against our european frends , many nations like france , the low countires and germany who had been friends and trading partners for the best part of a millenia. We lost more than we gained , not to mention oft being the cannon fodder.



There are what 80 000 soldiers in the army , of which you say maybe 15 / 20 % could be scottish? Even if every single one of those 16000 scottish soldiers were indeed loyal to the british crown and uk state , i hardly think they are reflective of the 5.6 million people in scotland  , half of whom want indepdnecne from your country , and our numbers are gorwing with each generation.

What the Army taught us was the experience of generations. After all, like you said, we've been a quarrelsome and warlike people in these islands for centuries. The British Army has few equals, either in the amount of conflicts it has fought and their effectiveness.

I dont think anyone denies that deppity , certainly not me. However , the british army is nothing more now than a small regional player , which gets involved in world events merely at the behest of the far larger and more powerfull USA.



We are no longer sending dragoons of highly trained modern soldiers into backward nations to carve out empires , the world is vastly changed now , and britian is struggling to adapt to the world it finds itself living in today. All it has is never ending re runs of celebrating mythical victories in world wars.



Despite the uk army being highly efficient and trained , it didnt change the fact the germans chased them out of europe in 1940 , and the british capitulated to the japanese in the far east at the fall of singapore , and it took the combined might of the red army and the americans to defeat the germans and japanese forces.



The second world war was really the beginning of the end for the uk , and i dont think even the most "keen " british student of war and history would try and argue otherwise.

I see TV depictions and it often strikes me how little people understand of the realities of war. Some guy chucks a grenade in a room and ducks behind a wall. Only a modern fragmentation grenade won't be contained by a brick wall, and you'd probably end up killing yourself and half your mates. Sure, they teach you the textbook ways to fight. Hell, they don't even call FIBUA "fighting in built up areas" anymore. :: They changed it to "operations". Probably because of the squeamishness of modern society and the desire to sanitise everything these days. But the old lags know the most effective ways to clear a room, because they've done their time. I'm not going to write them down. If you ask 22 men to do these kind of things, better make sure they have a reasonable chance of coming out alive again. That's human nature I'm afraid

Totally agree deppity , dont you think again that the media government and general propaganda at play though? Join the army and become an expert at underwater knife fighting? :roll:



Of course it doeant help where we have never ending war films with sir david niven running around with a sub machine gun shooting hundreds of germans. The reality of the german blitzkreig when the british were being handed out first world war rifles and telt to start digging trenches again as the germans rolled over them  ,were according to my auld grandpa a feckin embarresment. He admired the german soldier tremendously.

Again, that illustrates the difference between a conscripted army and professionals soldiers. The latter know every trick in the book. As the saying goes, "professionals are predictable - its the amateurs you have to watch out for". Many of those men who fought WW2 would ordinarily have been engineers, chemists or accountants. They went off to fight a war because they had to - not because they didn't have the skills or opportunities to do other things. They fought because it was expected of them, by their families and by their peers - they fought for their homes and their societies. No, that wasn't perfect, I know. But my generation can't pretend to have had any of those noble motivations.

Totally agree here. Peer pressure to sign up and the contempt of society if they didnt , is far different to the modern professional looking for a career.

I'm sure that eventually, when its past living memory, WW2 will pass into history. But as long as the memory of that generation still lives in the current ones, then their deeds will stay alive - they were the extraordinary deeds of ordinary men and women, and there is a lot worth remembering. I don't think that's a bad thing.

I think you slightly misunderstand me though deppity , im not saying remembering people in quiet contemplation of what they went through is a bad thing , im sayng i cant stand all the highjacking of it all with this brit nattery jingoistic shite that does mine , and many scottish peoples box in.



This is the big difference i see between our countries , england cannot move on from the past , while most of the rest of us are. England needs to find a place for itself in this modern world , and realise those days are long gone and it will never ever be a world power again.



I still fail to see the need to include the words victory and celebrations in what should be reflective somber events to remember the feckin carnage . If we cant reflect and remember events with a bit of sense of our part in it without all the brit nattery and we won the war , when we didnt , then we should quietly drop it all and move on .



Im sure this subject will be brought up time and again , cause the brit state and elite have no thought of giving up "celebrating" when we won the war.



However , as the old generations disappear , and we are almost there as we have discussed , the younger generations dont appear to have that same enthusiasm to celebrate the slaughter of their fellow europeans.

[Thomas]

I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying but it's not relevant to my point.  I may have misunderstood this debate as I came in later, but I am talking only about whether it is morally justificable for the UK (or other allied nations) to fight against the Germany regime in WW2.  

No javert heres what you said....

Isn't it arguably a just war purely on the basis of the German government invading countries that the UK was allied with and that we had mutual defence treaties with, and then later on invading France, Belgium and many other allies?

You clearly made the point it was just to declare war on the germans due to invading countries the uk had treaties/alliances with. This is what i responded to , so it is very much relevant to this point.

If you bring up all the atrocities committed by the British over the centuries against that, what exactly is your point? That Britain should have just stood by and not taken part in WW2 on the basis - we are all bad people so we don't have any right to get involved here? If not then what?

You are putting words in my mouth as you often do with many people on this forum.



You knnow fine well my point , cromwell was using the old trope that this was some just war of good verses evil , and talking of the need to celebrate continuously (75 years on and counting) and i was using examples of things the british had done not just prior to the war but specifically after the end of the war up till the present day , and  arguing that depending on the perspective , the british are regarded as as much evil in some quarters to the germans.



No one in any way shape or form is saying the uk shouldnt have went  to war , what i am feckin questioning is people saying it was a war of good verses evil and the idea it was a fight to liberate people when the british were fighting in the far east to re enslave countires into their empire.

It's also arguable that the Holocaust was worse than anything that Britain ever did, in the sense that it was an clear and deliberate decision to directly commit genocide against all or most of the minorities in your country.

That depends entirely on the perspective doesnt it javert.? To the englishman , yes of course it would , to the irish , indians and many other nations they may differ.



We already mentioned hitler killed a large amount of people in a reltively short period of time , using modern technology , the british did it in various countries over a longer period of time and didint have hitlers technology available to them.



Are you seriouslt arguing that the british holocaust carried out ion the concentration camps of south africa werent as bad as hitlers holocaust simply because one killed millions and the others thousands?



You arent argung what is morally right or wrong , you are arguing who was more efficient.

but I'm not aware of a situation where Britain deliberately and methodically set out to kill and destroy every last member of an entire race and kill everybody.

Then maybe you should pick up a history book and do some research javert , start with ireland.

[cromwell]

I can remember being at school, (yes, a long time ago) and kids were singing "We won the war, we won the war, eee eye adio, we won the war".

That was close to 20 years after the end of WW2.

I see the VE day celebrations rather in the same way. An adult version of that childish chant remembering that "We won the war".

We still remember the dead and the pointlessness of war in November each day. We don't need another Armistice Day, we need to put the past behind us.

Germany are our friends and allies now, aren't they?

Kids singing?yeah they also sing ring a ring of roses all about the plague that's what kids do.



Nazism and fascism  the holocaust were evil personified,might all who believe in that still even now be German or Italian? there are extremists here and all over the world, remembering ( not celebrating )is important in order history doesn't repeat itself.



Putting the past behind us ignores the importance of history,Ford said history was bunk,perhaps it is if you want to continue to make the same mistakes.

[DeppityDawg]

Good post deppity.



There isnt a single generation of my family who hasnt served in the armed forces in some capacaity or another going way back. Still have cousins serving.



Modern soldiers as you say were and are nothing like those serving in world war two. A massivley different ball game for many many reason  , a modern recruit looking for a career compared to many who were forced to join up and serve 75 years ago.



Then they needed cannon fodder , today we dont. A completely different ball game.



I think what was different about the first then the second world war was technology , and the vast arrays of modern weapons and warfare at the time which resulted in millions being killed over a relatively short time period compared to times gone past.



When the yanks dropped those bombs on hiroshima and nagasaki , i think the world knew then we were at the doors of armageddon.



My paternal grandfather was an argyle and sutherland highlander , killed at st valery , my maternal grandfather served round the med and survived north africa italy and greece.



He loved and admired the germans , and hated the yanks , and we often talked about the war , indeed i got my love of history from him. He told the story of being dragged off to war , and when home on leave hiding out until the Military police came to get him.



I have been many a time to norhtern france to see my auld grandpas grave  , and took the kids .Wandering about those graveyards seeing what in reality is mere weans buried there to me puts all these jingoistic celebrations in perspective.



Perhaps instead of being told to "celebrate" "victories" in europe and all that shite , we should be making sure every european schoolchild gets a tour of thoses graves and told some of the stories behind them . Eventually though deppity , i think we all have to move on.



The scottish english border near you has some of the bloodiest battles castles and the ghosts of the dead could fill this  island ten time over , but we dont constantly harp back about that year in year out .The scottish english border is some of the most fought over frontier borderlands in the whole of europe. Its all consigned to history , and we have tried to move on.



Despots , evil doers and those with fascist tendencies all conspired to bring warfare to that area , we have moved on and forgotten them , so why not with the world wars and germany?

Scots have always been over represented in the Army. Something like 15-20%. Which perhaps says something about who joins up and why. Even as little as 25 years ago that was the case, and still is to an extent. Its always the working class kids, the ones from deprived areas and backgrounds that end up there. Not a little because they are the ones who make natural soldiers.



What the Army taught us was the experience of generations. After all, like you said, we've been a quarrelsome and warlike people in these islands for centuries. The British Army has few equals, either in the amount of conflicts it has fought and their effectiveness. I see TV depictions and it often strikes me how little people understand of the realities of war. Some guy chucks a grenade in a room and ducks behind a wall. Only a modern fragmentation grenade won't be contained by a brick wall, and you'd probably end up killing yourself and half your mates. Sure, they teach you the textbook ways to fight. Hell, they don't even call FIBUA "fighting in built up areas" anymore. ::  They changed it to "operations". Probably because of the squeamishness of modern society and the desire to sanitise everything these days. But the old lags know the most effective ways to clear a room, because they've done their time. I'm not going to write them down. If you ask 22 men to do these kind of things, better make sure they have a reasonable chance of coming out alive again. That's human nature I'm afraid.



Again, that illustrates the difference between a conscripted army and professionals soldiers. The latter know every trick in the book. As the saying goes, "professionals are predictable - its the amateurs you have to watch out for". Many of those men who fought WW2 would ordinarily have been engineers, chemists or accountants. They went off to fight a war because they had to - not because they didn't have the skills or opportunities to do other things. They fought because it was expected of them, by their families and by their peers - they fought for their homes and their societies. No, that wasn't perfect, I know. But my generation can't pretend to have had any of those noble motivations. I'm sure that eventually, when its past living memory, WW2 will pass into history. But as long as the memory of that generation still lives in the current ones, then their deeds will stay alive - they were the extraordinary deeds of ordinary men and women, and there is a lot worth remembering. I don't think that's a bad thing.

[Javert]

I can remember being at school, (yes, a long time ago) and kids were singing "We won the war, we won the war, eee eye adio, we won the war".

That was close to 20 years after the end of WW2.

I see the VE day celebrations rather in the same way. An adult version of that childish chant remembering that "We won the war".

We still remember the dead and the pointlessness of war in November each day. We don't need another Armistice Day, we need to put the past behind us.

Germany are our friends and allies now, aren't they?

Germany also had commemorations on VE day - the purpose is supposed to be to remember what happened and hopefully educate younger generations so that they don't go into these situations again.  From what I see, many people are trying to do exactly that.



As regards those people who try to turn it into a celebration of victory (e.g. the Mail with their "victory over Europe" headlines), I agree with your comments.

[Barry]

I can remember being at school, (yes, a long time ago) and kids were singing "We won the war, we won the war, eee eye adio, we won the war".

That was close to 20 years after the end of WW2.

I see the VE day celebrations rather in the same way. An adult version of that childish chant remembering that "We won the war".

We still remember the dead and the pointlessness of war in November each day. We don't need another Armistice Day, we need to put the past behind us.

Germany are our friends and allies now, aren't they?

[Javert]

No because as we touched on before , if it is just to fight invaders , then every war fought against england/brtiain must also be just as well. How many countries did you invade......62? A third of the planet?



Was the irish war in the early twetieth centuiry against the english invader a just war to kick you out of their country? You never hear anythig about that? It certainly wasnt a just war according to the forums john of gwent , indeed john still gets angry about the uppity irish notknowing their place under mother englands heel.



We also touched on earlier how the second world war wasnt about being just and fighting off invaders of friendly european states , britian also fought to regain control of countries in the far east it had invaded like singapore and burma.



So why is it ok for the british to invade , but not the germans or anyone else?

I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying but it's not relevant to my point.  I may have misunderstood this debate as I came in later, but I am talking only about whether it is morally justificable for the UK (or other allied nations) to fight against the Germany regime in WW2.  



If you bring up all the atrocities committed by the British over the centuries against that, what exactly is your point?  That Britain should have just stood by and not taken part in WW2 on the basis - we are all bad people so we don't have any right to get involved here?  If not then what?



It's also arguable that the Holocaust was worse than anything that Britain ever did, in the sense that it was an clear and deliberate decision to directly commit genocide against all or most of the minorities in your country.  Britain did many things that may have indirectly caused things like that to happen over the centuries, but I'm not aware of a situation where Britain deliberately and methodically set out to kill and destroy every last member of an entire race and kill everybody.

[cromwell]

Well, it's interesting to note in any discussion of fascism  the way the left are allowed to incite the throwing of battery acid into the faces of those who ask the people if they want to vote for an alternative to the socialist dystopia they demand. And it's interesting to note the reaction the left have to anyone other than a Jewish MP calling out the behaviour of the Jews towards those Britain helped then displace.



But if course it's only fascism when the right do it, just as it isn't racism when the blacks and browns do it.



THIS is why I say my grandfather, my father and I wasted our damn time. We've got the same hatred today that millions were told to kill and die to.prevent, only the Jack boot is now being strutted by a different set of legs.



On a separate note, I have to say, I read that line in Churchills speech about the war being CHRISTIANITYs last stand and laughed out loud. Because the Luftwaffe pilots Arthur was shooting in the back were praying to the same God he was that he wouldn't find them, and as I have said before, the Afrika Corps soldiers my Uncle Tom bandaged up when he found them screaming in pain next to the 8th Army men he was actually there to patch up believed in the same God too.



And looking at the shithole this country is today I cant say Christianity got saved that permanently did it.

Well it's interesting to note people often don't read a bloody word posted,I've had arguments about the duke of windsor ,chamberlain,the actions of the British empire put my way when I wasn't even defending them and now you're at it,look at this post on here where I said this

.what I did say in a post and in others on here is the dangers of fascism and extremism

yes the dangers of fascism and extremism does extremism cover left and right would've thought so in most thinking but not apparently on this thread.



Look for the hard of thinking  I don't defend the royal family,all actions of the British empire,stalin,the katyn forest massacre,chamberlain though surely the actions of baldwin made him more culpable,all actions of post war Britain what I said was the defeat of Nazism and fascism were a good thing and should be remembered in order that extremism does not flourish again and still believe that.



Anyone wanting to point out some injustice I failed to mention please post about it and tell me what a hypocrite I am for failing to list it,alternatively mention celebrations when I didn't say that either or perhaps make something else up not posted,must be so much fun. :clp  :roll:  :shrg:  :hattip

[Thomas]

Well, it's interesting to note in any discussion of fascism  the way the left are allowed to incite the throwing of battery acid into the faces of those who ask the people if they want to vote for an alternative to the socialist dystopia they demand. And it's interesting to note the reaction the left have to anyone other than a Jewish MP calling out the behaviour of the Jews towards those Britain helped then displace.



But if course it's only fascism when the right do it, just as it isn't racism when the blacks and browns do it.



THIS is why I say my grandfather, my father and I wasted our damn time. We've got the same hatred today that millions were told to kill and die to.prevent, only the Jack boot is now being strutted by a different set of legs.



On a separate note, I have to say, I read that line in Churchills speech about the war being CHRISTIANITYs last stand and laughed out loud. Because the Luftwaffe pilots Arthur was shooting in the back were praying to the same God he was that he wouldn't find them, and as I have said before, the Afrika Corps soldiers my Uncle Tom bandaged up when he found them screaming in pain next to the 8th Army men he was actually there to patch up believed in the same God too.



And looking at the shithole this country is today I cant say Christianity got saved that permanently did it.

Not sure i agree with that john.



The point has been made repeatedly throughout this thread that fascism was more palatable to many of the european elite than the evils of communism in the years leading up to world war two. Hence my point about cromwell being extremely misguided of the good and noble reasons why britain was dragged into war.



I havent seen anyone  anywhere with any credibility argue the left arent capable of evil as much as the right.



The whole point of my argument is no country race religion colour and creed are blameless , least of all the british.



You talk of christianity , what is it christians say.........let him without sin cast the first stone?



I think when the butchers apron comes out , two world wars and one world cup chants start , and the patronising attitude of the holier than thou to the germans , the british would do well to remember that.

[johnofgwent]

What has the attitude of the elite got to do with it being a peoples war,and yeah they maybe were reluctant to go but most knew  it had to be done and determined if they returned they'd see changes and in ways they did.



I don't really give a stuff that you,Jog,Barry or anyone else disagrees,fascism was and is an evil and if for no other reason it should be remembered in order that it isn't repeated.



When I started worked and served my time learning my work most of the people I worked with or for were of the war time generation,.didn't glorify it but saw and perhaps did some awful things,what they related to me bears little resemblance to what you posted.

Well, it's interesting to note in any discussion of fascism  the way the left are allowed to incite the throwing of battery acid into the faces of those who ask the people if they want to vote for an alternative to the socialist dystopia they demand. And it's interesting to note the reaction the left have to anyone other than a Jewish MP calling out the behaviour of the Jews towards those Britain helped then displace.



But if course it's only fascism when the right do it, just as it isn't racism when the blacks and browns do it.



THIS is why I say my grandfather, my father and I wasted our damn time. We've got the same hatred today that millions were told to kill and die to.prevent, only the Jack boot is now being strutted by a different set of legs.



On a separate note, I have to say, I read that line in Churchills speech about the war being CHRISTIANITYs last stand and laughed out loud. Because the Luftwaffe pilots Arthur was shooting in the back were praying to the same God he was that he wouldn't find them, and as I have said before, the Afrika Corps soldiers my Uncle Tom bandaged up when he found them screaming in pain next to the 8th Army men he was actually there to patch up believed in the same God too.



And looking at the shithole this country is today I cant say Christianity got saved that permanently did it.

[Thomas]

:: Yes that one.



Sorry I meant 'our' as in me and other sassy-nachs, not everyone in the disunited fiefdom.



I get your point, but I guess out of all our leaders over history, the old kings were perhaps the purest.



 I'm quite a fan of the diggers in the english civil war and Wat Tyler in the peasants revolt too but that's another story. My political ideology is really just some sort of confederation around the world, where different types of societies are allowed to exist; not just neoliberal capitalist experiments - although if a group of people want to live under neoliberalism then let them; real self-determination and autonomy is permitted and everyone isn't beholden to one standard; America's bullying, markets; the likes of moody's and fitch and so forth.. If the commies want their little enclave, let them have it, if English nationalists want a slice of the country to themselves, let them live as they wish..same for other types of capitalist, agrarians, odd cultists, theocrats  ...and so on and so forth. And with some compromises, assurances and some way of arbitrating disputes and disallowing stuff like mass abuse or genocide etc, with several reasonable societies arbitrating; it's the only way I can see real freedom and peace enduring around the world.



The problem is that so many people want the whole world to conform to their one, universal standard. But I don't think that can ever work.

:thup:

[Thomas]

Its a great post mate, but I haven't get the energy (or your historical knowledge) to reply to it all. I can only really go on what I saw or experienced. That includes comparing it to the history and experiences of others in my Regiment who fought from 1939 to 1945 across the globe.



I served in 3 conflicts. Northern Ireland was about maintaining the status quo - council estate kids like me fighting other council estate kids with a different accent. We weren't all that different. 1 Gulf War was, despite Saddam Hussein, ultimately about US interests in the region, and we all know where that ended. Bosnia was perhaps the only one that had a justifiable aim, as it was a response to a humanitarian crisis. It was also the one where I saw some of the most troubling things, that still haunt me today - and the one we could do least about. Should we have been involved in any of them? As I've said before, it wasn't our job to question that. Our job was carry out the governments policy - I've never tried to pretend any of that was glorious, because wars aren't. There were no grand social motives and no one remembers them. In the end, you do your duty as much for those around you, as for any other reason. That's what makes an Infantry company in a combat zone the closest thing there will ever be to true socialism. Everyone lives or dies, with and by those around them. When your horizon is limited to the next few hours or days, these are the things that become important to you, not grand politics or what's in the press. But we were not the same as the generation that fought WW2.



The Army of WW2 was different. I think those involved, whole countries even, sensed that it was a moment where Europe's (and perhaps the whole worlds) future would be decided. In scale alone, it dwarfed every conflict, before or since. I'm not pretending that the Royal Family, the British establishment et al, had any other motives than the same status quo they sent kids like me to fight in NI for - but the mass army they had to conscript to fight WW2 became something altogether different to that of the small, professional, volunteer Army that seeded it. They were mostly ordinary people - butchers, bakers, candlestick makers - not the troubled youths and hooligans of a declining economy forced into a professional Army like kids like me. I'm not pretending either, that those soldiers who served all over the world, changed Britain into anything perfect either - but when it was over, they rejected Winston Churchill, they rejected the establishment and to a point the Royal Family too, and voted in new socialist government by a huge landslide. The old order had changed. No, not perfect, but who was going to overturn as you say a system that was in place since 1066 in a few 20th century years? Whatever the establishment thought they were fighting for, the people were fighting for something different. Britain of 1945 wasn't a perfect place by any stretch of the imagination. But I think it was a different place to the one of 1939.

Good post deppity.



There isnt a single generation of my family who hasnt served in the armed forces in some capacaity or another going way back. Still have cousins serving.



Modern soldiers as you say were and are nothing like those serving in world war two. A massivley different ball game for many many reason  , a modern recruit looking for a career compared to many who were forced to join up and serve 75 years ago.



Then they needed cannon fodder , today we dont. A completely different ball game.



I think what was different about the first then the second world war was technology , and the vast arrays of modern weapons and warfare at the time which resulted in millions being killed over a relatively short time period compared to times gone past.



When the yanks dropped those bombs on hiroshima and nagasaki , i think the world knew then we were at the doors of armageddon.



My paternal grandfather was an argyle and sutherland highlander , killed at st valery , my maternal grandfather served round the med and survived north africa italy and greece.



He loved and admired the germans , and hated the yanks , and we often talked about the war , indeed i got my love of history from him. He told the story of being dragged off to war , and when home on leave hiding out until the Military police came to get him.



I have been many a time to norhtern france to see my auld grandpas grave  , and took the kids .Wandering about those graveyards seeing what in reality is mere weans buried there to me puts all these jingoistic celebrations in perspective.



Perhaps instead of being told to "celebrate" "victories" in europe and all that shite , we should be making sure every european schoolchild gets a tour of thoses graves and told some of the stories behind them . Eventually though deppity , i think we all have to move on.



The scottish english border near you has some of the bloodiest battles castles and the ghosts of the dead could fill this  island ten time over , but we dont constantly harp back about that year in year out .The scottish english border is some of the most fought over frontier borderlands in the whole of europe. Its all consigned to history , and we have tried to move on.



Despots , evil doers and those with fascist tendencies all conspired to bring warfare to that area , we have moved on and forgotten them , so why not with the world wars and germany?

[Borg Refinery]

St edmund?



Was that the silly english bastard who tried to preach the gospel to the danes and got himself shot full of arrows ?



He wasnt one of my countries leaders dynamis , while the danes were invading england , we scottish were invading from the north under our king constantine in a "noble and just war" to cleanse celtic britain of the unclean anglo saxon barbarian and send him packing back to his mud hut in germany.

 :: Yes that one.



Sorry I meant 'our' as in me and other sassy-nachs, not everyone in the disunited fiefdom.



I get your point, but I guess out of all our leaders over history, the old kings were perhaps the purest.



 I'm quite a fan of the diggers in the english civil war and Wat Tyler in the peasants revolt too but that's another story. My political ideology is really just some sort of confederation around the world, where different types of societies are allowed to exist; not just neoliberal capitalist experiments - although if a group of people want to live under neoliberalism then let them; real self-determination and autonomy is permitted and everyone isn't beholden to one standard; America's bullying, markets; the likes of moody's and fitch and so forth.. If the commies want their little enclave, let them have it, if English nationalists want a slice of the country to themselves, let them live as they wish..same for other types of capitalist, agrarians, odd cultists, theocrats  ...and so on and so forth. And with some compromises, assurances and some way of arbitrating disputes and disallowing stuff like mass abuse or genocide etc, with several reasonable societies arbitrating; it's the only way I can see real freedom and peace enduring around the world.



The problem is that so many people want the whole world to conform to their one, universal standard. But I don't think that can ever work.

[cromwell]

Its a great post mate, but I haven't get the energy (or your historical knowledge) to reply to it all. I can only really go on what I saw or experienced. That includes comparing it to the history and experiences of others in my Regiment who fought from 1939 to 1945 across the globe.



I served in 3 conflicts. Northern Ireland was about maintaining the status quo - council estate kids like me fighting other council estate kids with a different accent. We weren't all that different. 1 Gulf War was, despite Saddam Hussein, ultimately about US interests in the region, and we all know where that ended. Bosnia was perhaps the only one that had a justifiable aim, as it was a response to a humanitarian crisis. It was also the one where I saw some of the most troubling things, that still haunt me today - and the one we could do least about. Should we have been involved in any of them? As I've said before, it wasn't our job to question that. Our job was carry out the governments policy - I've never tried to pretend any of that was glorious, because wars aren't. There were no grand social motives and no one remembers them. In the end, you do your duty as much for those around you, as for any other reason. That's what makes an Infantry company in a combat zone the closest thing there will ever be to true socialism. Everyone lives or dies, with and by those around them. When your horizon is limited to the next few hours or days, these are the things that become important to you, not grand politics or what's in the press. But we were not the same as the generation that fought WW2.



The Army of WW2 was different. I think those involved, whole countries even, sensed that it was a moment where Europe's (and perhaps the whole worlds) future would be decided. In scale alone, it dwarfed every conflict, before or since. I'm not pretending that the Royal Family, the British establishment et al, had any other motives than the same status quo they sent kids like me to fight in NI for - but the mass army they had to conscript to fight WW2 became something altogether different to that of the small, professional, volunteer Army that seeded it. They were mostly ordinary people - butchers, bakers, candlestick makers - not the troubled youths and hooligans of a declining economy forced into a professional Army like kids like me. I'm not pretending either, that those soldiers who served all over the world, changed Britain into anything perfect either - but when it was over, they rejected Winston Churchill, they rejected the establishment and to a point the Royal Family too, and voted in new socialist government by a huge landslide. The old order had changed. No, not perfect, but who was going to overturn as you say a system that was in place since 1066 in a few 20th century years? Whatever the establishment thought they were fighting for, the people were fighting for something different. Britain of 1945 wasn't a perfect place by any stretch of the imagination. But I think it was a different place to the one of 1939.

 :hattip