VE Day +75

[DeppityDawg]

What im trying to say is all countries at various periods have behaved terribly to other nations and minorities. Why do we forget one , but not the other? Its mere jingoistic claptrap in my opinion deppity this narrative that is was the british good versus the german  evil. It wasnt , and we both know it wasnt.

Its a great post mate, but I haven't get the energy (or your historical knowledge) to reply to it all. I can only really go on what I saw or experienced. That includes comparing it to the history and experiences of others in my Regiment who fought from 1939 to 1945 across the globe.



I served in 3 conflicts. Northern Ireland was about maintaining the status quo - council estate kids like me fighting other council estate kids with a different accent. We weren't all that different. 1 Gulf War was, despite Saddam Hussein, ultimately about US interests in the region, and we all know where that ended. Bosnia was perhaps the only one that had a justifiable aim, as it was a response to a humanitarian crisis. It was also the one where I saw some of the most troubling things, that still haunt me today - and the one we could do least about. Should we have been involved in any of them? As I've said before, it wasn't our job to question that. Our job was carry out the governments policy - I've never tried to pretend any of that was glorious, because wars aren't. There were no grand social motives and no one remembers them. In the end, you do your duty as much for those around you, as for any other reason. That's what makes an Infantry company in a combat zone the closest thing there will ever be to true socialism. Everyone lives or dies, with and by those around them. When your horizon is limited to the next few hours or days, these are the things that become important to you, not grand politics or what's in the press. But we were not the same as the generation that fought WW2.



The Army of WW2 was different. I think those involved, whole countries even, sensed that it was a moment where Europe's (and perhaps the whole worlds) future would be decided. In scale alone, it dwarfed every conflict, before or since. I'm not pretending that the Royal Family, the British establishment et al, had any other motives than the same status quo they sent kids like me to fight in NI for - but the mass army they had to conscript to fight WW2 became something altogether different to that of the small, professional, volunteer Army that seeded it. They were mostly ordinary people - butchers, bakers, candlestick makers - not the troubled youths and hooligans of a declining economy forced into a professional Army like kids like me. I'm not pretending either, that those soldiers who served all over the world, changed Britain into anything perfect either - but when it was over, they rejected Winston Churchill, they rejected the establishment and to a point the Royal Family too, and voted in new socialist government by a huge landslide. The old order had changed. No, not perfect, but who was going to overturn as you say a system that was in place since 1066 in a few 20th century years? Whatever the establishment thought they were fighting for, the people were fighting for something different. Britain of 1945 wasn't a perfect place by any stretch of the imagination. But I think it was a different place to the one of 1939.

[Thomas]

IMHO, our best leaders were men like St Edmund; back when this country was oft invaded, not the invader.

St edmund?



Was that the silly english bastard who tried to preach the gospel to the danes and got himself shot full of arrows ?



He wasnt one of my countries leaders dynamis , while the danes were invading england , we scottish were invading from the north under our king constantine in a "noble and just war" to cleanse celtic britain of the unclean anglo saxon barbarian and send him packing back to his mud hut in germany.

[Thomas]

 





Well to be correct I doubt very much if WW2 would've been won without the massive sacrifice of the Russian people,you know ordinary people not Stalin or the communist party. :shrg:

Theres no doubt about it. Britain would have been squashed without the soviets and d day would never have happened without the americans .



...but tell me , yet again your answer flags up a lack of logic in your posts .



If britian was fighting evil and dispensing justice to evil doers , why didnt you do anything about the russians ?

Did the ends justify the Means?



There is no doubt that the evils of Nazism needed to be confronted and destroyed, here the Russians played a key role and endured a heavy loss of life as a result. However, long before WWII began, at its inception and long after its end Russia was involved in innumerable war crimes that have been too often forgotten when relaying the horrors of WWII and its aftermath. The evils of Nazism are rightly scrutinised and long may this continue but we should not forget the evils the Russians and indeed others carried out. If we are to cherish the freedoms that we enjoy today it has to be through the lens of an honest and complete narrative.

[/b]



You ignored the evils of the russians , and attempted to cover up their evil doing as collateral damage in your war with the nazis , which again shows how this mythical narrative of britain as the worlds policeman going round slapping wrongdoers on the nuckles is horshit.



You ignore atrocities and evil when it suits , and fight it when you have no choice.Russia was simply too powerfull for you though wasnt she?



Which goes back to my point again and again how the second world war wasnt a battle of good v evil or marching off the confront fascism .



Laughable british propaganda. You dont need to go back into the bin of history to see this in action , it wasnt that long agao we had british prime ministers hugging gaddafi in desert tents one minute then the british media trying to justify a war against him by calling him "evil " the next.



Your country has a motto that echoes down through history cromwell , "might is right".



Now you are no longer a world power , and barely a regional one , the americans have taken that motto over for you.

[Borg Refinery]

Cromwell can celebrate ve day in any way he likes all day long. I prefer to remember my family memebrs who lost their lives in my own way.



My main gripe with cromwell is his selective view of history time and gain , its a long running discussion between us. How as i keep saying he loves to ignore the things about england/britian historcially he finds unplalatable while constantly flagging up the faults of other countries like germany.



The vast majority of germans werent fascists and were the vitims of hitler as much as anyoe else. They have paid their dues over the years , and the slate is wiped clean as far as i can see.

Well yes, the vote was split between the SPD, KPD and NSDAP during the street fighting in Berlin period. I've often mentioned this elsewhere...



Like you alluded, the west used fascism as a bulwark against communism (..not that communism wasn't also awful, as you pointed out);  thinking it would be helpful to have them onside..



"If I had been an Italian, I am sure I should have been whole-heartedly with you from the start to finish in your triumphant struggle against the bestial appetites and passions of Leninism.[4]" - Churchill on the Fascisti, 1927



https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/72542-if-i-had-been-an-italian-i-am-sure-that">https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/72542- ... -sure-that">https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/72542-if-i-had-been-an-italian-i-am-sure-that



Heh. Later on, tje commies and fash saw eye to eye with the molotov-ribbentrop pact.....

However , it we are going to keep flinging historical mud , then if i was an englishman , i would think very carfully before doing so.



Hitler was a child compared to what the london elite have done in many countries over the centuries.

Agreed.



And fair enough, flinging mud does no one any good.



IMHO, our best leaders were men like St Edmund; back when this country was oft invaded, not the invader.

[cromwell]

I will ignore most of what you wrote here as mere deflective nonsense and yet another failure to deal with my points.



Your country could very well be the biggest bunch of barstewards to ever exist , im not advocating going to war with you in some "just and noble " cause to cleanse you of your wicked ways and then spend the next 75 feckin years celebrating the slaughter of miilions in some jingoistic pomp and all the accompaning excuses to try and justify my position.



Your country and many in it and their morals are all over the place cromwell.



You tell us who we have to learn the lessons of european history and never forget and continue to "celebrate" the overthrow of those evil fascists , while for the last four years you and many in your country have went out your way to not only leave , but hope it is destroyed , an institution whose founding forefathers set up to get european nations to come together and work hand in hand in mutual cooperation and european solidarity.



The english are off on yet another brit nat jolly up of how england won the war (6 years in a row) while sticking your fingers up to 500 million europeans and telling fairy stories of fighting fascism and telling off naughty invaders.



Biggest hypocrites on this feckin planet.

I'm deflecting ::  ::  ::

The english are off on yet another brit nat jolly up of how england won the war

Well to be correct I doubt very much if WW2 would've been won without the massive sacrifice of the Russian people,you know ordinary people not Stalin or the communist party. :shrg:

[Thomas]

good article here....



declaring war on invaders is just only in certain circumstances...

Germany Invades Poland (Only Germany?)



On 1st of September 1939 Germany invaded Poland which in effect resulted in the outbreak of WWII as France and Britain declared war on Germany on 3rd September. However, an often forgotten/ignored intervention happened on September 17th as part of the Nazi/Soviet agreement (Molotov-Ribbentrop pact), Russia invaded Poland from the east. This military intervention by Russia involved up to 800,000 troops and resulted in between 3000 – 7000 Polish deaths. The outcome of this was the annexation of Poland between the Nazis and the Soviets, ironically the Soviets controlled over 50% of Poland and 13 million people as a result of their invasion.

What did France and Britain do?



Both France and Britain were stunned by Russia's intervention, however, they did not declare war on Russia. On a technicality Britain had a secret protocol to the 1939 Anglo-Polish treaty that specifically limited Britain's obligation to protecting Poland to aggression from Germany only. In addition to this on a purely practical point, Britain and France were barely equipped to face down the Nazis, coupled with the Soviets would have been an impossible task. Therefore, France and Britain were muted on Russia's invasion of Poland and set about defending France against the impending German invasion.

[/b]

What happened to the Polish people under Russian Occupation?



The Russians captured 250,000 Polish prisoners during the invasion, these prisoners were denied any type of legal status as the Russians had not signed up to the international convention on rules of war. As a result, almost all officers were murdered with the remaining soldiers sent to forced labour camps.



Stalin ordered the murder of 22,000 Poles by the Soviet police during the Katyn massacre, in addition to this Soviet police rounded up and executed anyone they deemed as a perceived threat from intellects, politicians to religious leaders.



According to sociologist, Prof. Tadeusz Piotrowski, during the years from 1939–41, nearly 1.5 million people (including both local inhabitants and refugees from German-occupied Poland) were deported from the Soviet controlled areas of former eastern Poland deep into the Soviet Union. Only a small number of these deportees returned to their homes after the war. According to American professor Carroll Quigley, at least one third of the 320,000 Polish prisoners of war captured by the Red Army in 1939 were murdered. It's estimated that between 10 and 35 thousand prisoners were killed either in prisons or on prison trail to the Soviet Union in the few days after the 22 June 1941 German attack on the Soviets.

[/b]





https://sluggerotoole.com/2020/05/09/russias-role-in-world-war-ii/#more-130246">https://sluggerotoole.com/2020/05/09/ru ... ore-130246">https://sluggerotoole.com/2020/05/09/russias-role-in-world-war-ii/#more-130246

[Thomas]

And there you go off on one again,please point out where I decried the Germans in WW2 or the Italians,didn't mention that,donald duck or Pluto.......what I did say in a post and in others on here is the dangers of fascism and extremism,I even mentioned how our own politicians need to react to this.



I get that you think that we as a nation are the biggest bunch of bastards that ever existed,but what has that got to do with what I posted you are talking nations I was talking of defeating and guarding against any resurgence of fascism and extremism,last time I looked neither fascism or extremism and their ideals are regarded as nation states.

I will ignore most of what you wrote here as mere deflective nonsense and yet another failure to deal with my points.



Your country could very well be the biggest bunch of barstewards to ever exist , im not advocating going to war with you in some "just and noble " cause to cleanse you of your wicked ways and then spend the next 75 feckin years celebrating the slaughter of miilions in some jingoistic pomp and all the accompaning excuses to try and justify my position.



Your country and many in it and their morals are all over the place cromwell.



You tell us who we have to learn the lessons of european history and never forget and continue to "celebrate" the overthrow of those evil fascists , while for the last four years you and many in your country have went out your way to not only leave , but hope it is destroyed , an institution whose founding forefathers set up to get european nations to come together and work hand in hand in mutual cooperation and european solidarity.



The english are off on yet another brit nat jolly up of how england won the war (6 years in a row) while sticking your fingers up to 500 million europeans and telling fairy stories of fighting fascism and telling off naughty invaders.



Biggest hypocrites on this feckin planet.

[cromwell]

it has everything to do with our discussion.



One minute you tell me how the glorious british  , those defenders of all that is good and noble and just , fought the evil of fascism in a battle of good v evil 1939 - 1945 , but you dont want to talk about post 1945 , and all the horrors i mentioned the good and noble british inflicted on nations across the world , when all those empty morals were thrown to the wind and normal service resumed.



You dont want to talk about it cromwell , because it rips your rubbish argument to shreds.



The british are no more good or evil than anyone else , certainly not the germans , and there hasnt been a feckin war in your countries history since hengist and horsa left their mud huts in angeln and saxony in the fifth century to sail to the isle of sheppy that you have fought that could in any way be described as just or good.



world war two was no exception.

And there you go off on one again,please point out where I decried the Germans in WW2 or the Italians,didn't mention that,donald duck or Pluto.......what I did say in a post and in others on here is the dangers of fascism and extremism,I even mentioned how our own politicians need to react to this.



I get that you think that we as a nation are the biggest bunch of bastards that ever existed,but what has that got to do with what I posted you are talking nations I was talking of defeating and guarding against any resurgence of fascism and extremism,last time I looked neither fascism or extremism and their ideals are regarded as nation states.

[Thomas]

laugh away Thomas but what you say has nothing to do with what I posted ,if you look at my first post on page 2 on this I said this since you have mentioned celebrating'I also went on to mention the ordinary people.

it has everything to do with our discussion.



One minute you tell me how the glorious british  , those defenders of all that is good and noble and just , fought the evil of fascism in a battle of good v evil 1939 - 1945 , but you dont want to talk about post 1945 , and all the horrors i mentioned the good and noble british inflicted on nations across the world , when all those empty morals were thrown to the wind and normal service resumed.



You dont want to talk about it cromwell , because it rips your rubbish argument to shreds.



The british are no more good or evil than anyone else , certainly not the germans , and there hasnt been a feckin war in your countries history since hengist and horsa left their mud huts in angeln and saxony in the fifth century to sail to the isle of sheppy that you have fought that could in any way be described as just or good.



world war two was no exception.

[cromwell]

Tell me then cromwell , what did the great good and glorius british learn after fighting the evils of fascism in some good and noble just war in 1939 - 1945?



We had the suez crises in the mid fifties , when the great and noble just british decided to throw the imperial dice one last time before being put in their place by the yanks .



Then we had the mau mau rebellion against the british in kenya , and the subsequent british reprisals torture and slaughter of many kenyans as well as the imprisonment of over a million in "camps".



We have touched many a time on the behaviour of the good and noble british fighting a "just " war in northern ireland , so much so the british were forced to pay millions in fines and compenasation by the ECHR , as well as making a public humiliating apology for bloody sunday.



We had the british forcefully deporting the entire inhabitants of the chagos islands and being accused of crimes against humanity by mauritius , all to turn it into some amercian military base.



2016 , you held a referendum to stick two fingers up to 500 million europeans cause you couldnt control the eu like you do the uk , all in the spirit of anglo saxon solidarity while singing the just song about two world wars and one world cup against the germans.



Selective memory cromwell , a very selective memory indeed.



Bloody sunday? Naw lets talk about the evil nazis and how the good noble england went to war to fight fascism instead.



The germans dont have a patch on the horrors inflicted on many nations on this earth by your country.



Laughable listening to it.

laugh away Thomas but what you say has nothing to do with what I posted ,if you look at my first post on page 2 on this I said this since you have mentioned celebrating'I also went on to mention the ordinary people.

well perhaps celebrate is the wrong description

[Thomas]

Isn't it arguably a just war purely on the basis of the German government invading countries that the UK was allied with and that we had mutual defence treaties with, and then later on invading France, Belgium and many other allies?

No because as we touched on before , if it is just to fight invaders , then every war fought against england/brtiain must also be just as well. How many countries did you invade......62? A third of the planet?



Was the irish war in the early twetieth centuiry against the english invader a just war to kick you out of their country? You never hear anythig about that? It certainly wasnt a just war according to the forums john of gwent , indeed john still gets angry about the uppity irish notknowing their place under mother englands heel.



We also touched on earlier how the second world war wasnt about being just and fighting off invaders of friendly european states , britian also fought to regain control of countries in the far east it had invaded like singapore and burma.



So why is it ok for the british to invade , but not the germans or anyone else?

[Thomas]

Well I did say it was my last word but since you decided to misrepresent what I did say and insert things I never have I have changed my mind,I did not flag up one nations faults but did fascism,I have not systematically ignored anything about Britain past nor defended it other than to say they were different times.



Never defended Mosley,Chamberlain,Munich,the famine in Ireland or many other things in our past and never will,I'm disappointed Thomas  I only ever mentioned this from the perspective of ordinary people not the royal family or the elite.



Under other circumstances I might advise you or anybody else to go away in an anglo saxon way,but being a mod can't :hattip  :-P  :-P  

Tell me then cromwell , what did the great good and glorius british learn after fighting the evils of fascism in some good and noble just war in 1939 - 1945?



We had the suez crises in the mid fifties , when the great and noble just british decided to throw the imperial dice one last time before being put in their place by the yanks .



Then we had the mau mau rebellion against the british in kenya , and the subsequent british reprisals torture and slaughter of many kenyans as well as the imprisonment of over a million in "camps".



We have touched many a time on the behaviour of the good and noble british fighting a "just " war in northern ireland , so much so the british were forced to pay millions in fines and compenasation by the ECHR , as well as making a public humiliating apology for bloody sunday.



We had the british forcefully deporting the entire inhabitants of the chagos islands and being accused of crimes against humanity by mauritius , all to turn it into some amercian military base.



2016 , you held a referendum to stick two fingers up to 500 million europeans cause you couldnt control the eu like you do the uk , all in the spirit of anglo saxon solidarity while singing the just song about two world wars and one world cup against the germans.



Selective memory cromwell , a very selective memory indeed.



Bloody sunday? Naw lets talk about the evil nazis and how the good noble england went to war to fight fascism instead.



The germans dont have a patch on the horrors inflicted on many nations on this earth by your country.



Laughable listening to it.

[Thomas]

I was commenting from a soldiers point of view, which I think I said, was along the lines of "there are few alternatives to good v bad to WW2", or words to that effect. Which if compared to the UKs withdraw from empire conflicts that followed, or the French/US in Vietnam, or the various proxy wars and direct involvement in the Middle East and Afghanistan by the West in general for arguments sake, it was a "justifiable" war from a peoples perspective. Unless we want to get into a whole world of hurt about the holocaust and whether Britain (or any other European colonial power come to that) falls into the same category as Nazi Germany. I'm not generally one to defend the UKs "reputation" Thomas, because I've seen it in action, and you know that. But the UK was not Nazi Germany, not in imho anyway.



Nevertheless, I wouldn't disagree that the UKs establishment (Royal Family anyone?) were blowing sugar up the Germans arse for years before WW2 broke out, but I haven't read enough about it to comment, only that despite the "peoples" war moniker, its generally not the establishment that fight wars, but the working class kids, as we've both observed before. There I think, is the difference between the ordinary soldiers view of WW2 and the establishments. Churchill "won" the war, but Labour won the peace. That was the their victory, in that it broke a large part of what the (far worse) "establishment" was before 1939 I guess.







I agree. As I said, I don't think anyone should be compelled to "celebrate" anything if they aren't inclined to. Neither do I think anyone should be guilt tripped for doing so either. For me anyway, its only ever about remembrance, and that's because as a former soldier, its about respect for those who suffered and those we lost.

Dont think we really disagree.



I also think you know what im getting at with cromwell and his popular culture fiction regarding fighting fascism in world war two.



No one least of all the german people today deny that the holocaust was evil , but my point to cromwell the holocasue wasnt the reason why britian fought the germans , or any other of his good noble reasons.



Long story short , british interests conflicted waith germand interests and war happened. It was nothing to do with being just , which in britains case considering its behaviour is a laughable comment. I will come onto this with cromwell in a bit though.

 Unless we want to get into a whole world of hurt about the holocaust and whether Britain (or any other European colonial power come to that) falls into the same category as Nazi Germany.

The united kingdom in the mid twentieth century certainly wasnt nazi germany , but the point is when do you stop throwing mud at countries historical  evil wrongdoings , and how long do you keep flagging it up?



Hitler was merely one of many many historical despots , and that includes figures in many countries including england and scotland.



What set him apart from someone like say the englishman oliver cromwell was technology. Had oliver cromwell possessed the technology hitler had to gas the 17th century irish , instead of merely trying to send them to the colonies and oputting them on reservations west of the shannon , cromwell would have suprassed never mind equalled hitlers behaviour to the jews.



What im trying to say is all countries at various periods have behaved terribly to other nations and minorities. Why do we forget one , but not the other? Its mere jingoistic claptrap in my opinion deppity this narrative that is was the british good versus the german  evil. It wasnt , and we both know it wasnt.



Before hitler , england and spain were the two biggest persecutors of the jews in european history.

only that despite the "peoples" war moniker, its generally not the establishment that fight wars, but the working class kids, as we've both observed before.

in that case deppity , im sure you would agree every war in history is a peoples war , in which case world war two is nothing special , because they all fall into that category.



Why are we celebrating this one but none of the rest? Selective cherry picking in my opinion for jingoistic reasons to give the gullible a wamr glow inside about being on the side of the so called good. Its laughable propaganda.

 Churchill "won" the war, but Labour won the peace. That was the their victory, in that it broke a large part of what the (far worse) "establishment" was before 1939 I guess

The establishment have been in place and power since 1066 , and have merely adapted as they were forced to do so after many differing events.



How many times have soldiers come back to a shit state of affairs after fighting for all these so called noble and good causes? Time and again , and still it goes on today.



I take on board what you are saying about the post war events , but once again i will come to a few things post war in a minute with cromwell that shows the brit establishment certainly didnt change their spots in any way after the war .

I agree. As I said, I don't think anyone should be compelled to "celebrate" anything if they aren't inclined to. Neither do I think anyone should be guilt tripped for doing so either. For me anyway, its only ever about remembrance, and that's because as a former soldier, its about respect for those who suffered and those we lost.

Tell me though deppity , who the feck in their right mind celebrates a war? What sort of sick country does this?



There is a difference between quietly remembering those who fell and raiseig a glass to them to being told to "celebrate" both the start of wars (2014 first world war centenary) and "Victory" in europe day . Look at the words victory and celebration , pure utter jingoistic crap without any thought for ordinary soldiers by the establishment .



Nothing more than a rule brittannia jolly up. time we all moved on now.

[cromwell]

My main gripe with cromwell is his selective view of history time and gain , its a long running discussion between us. How as i keep saying he loves to ignore the things about england/britian historcially he finds unplalatable while constantly flagging up the faults of other countries like germany.

Well I did say it was my last word but since you decided to misrepresent what I did say and insert things I never have I have changed my mind,I did not flag up one nations faults but did fascism,I have not systematically ignored anything about Britain past nor defended it other than to say they were different times.



Never defended Mosley,Chamberlain,Munich,the famine in Ireland or many other things in our past and never will,I'm disappointed Thomas  I only ever mentioned this from the perspective of ordinary people not the royal family or the elite.



Under other circumstances I might advise you or anybody else to go away in an anglo saxon way,but being a mod can't :hattip  :-P  :-P  

[Javert]

Isn't it arguably a just war purely on the basis of the German government invading countries that the UK was allied with and that we had mutual defence treaties with, and then later on invading France, Belgium and many other allies?



You don't necessarily have to justify it based on what Germany was doing to its own citizens at the time.  



I agree that the British Empire was (and arguably still is) also responsible for many terrible things as well, but that doesn't change the argument above?