Has BJ broken the spell?

[Javert]

Yeah, right, I bet you have. Where did you see them when we've been in lockdown.

Believe it or not, one example I saw was actually in a corridor in the hospital, last week.

[Thomas]

Beevor is probably the best, so likely to be very good if it is highly rated by him.



Re the 1940 point, I'm reading that he was pretty unpopular initially but had won many over by the time Chamberlin died.



Is that true or pseudo history? The most interesting thing I could find was a bbc snippet which won't play on my device;



https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p009cmmr">https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p009cmmr



Maybe it'll work for you guys.

Yes he appears to have been and in some quarters remained pretty unpopular. To me in what i have read about him , he came across as a complete marmite character , you either loved or hated him , no in between.

[Barry]

Healthcare workers, care workers, and teachers who are risking their lives right now are quite heavily remain voters and more likely to be Labour or Lib Dem supporters, less likely to be Tory.



Are you prepared to carry a sign out tomorrow night at 8pm calling them invertebrates and cowards?

Javert Spock in Strawman mood.  ::

On the other side, I've seen many a case of extreme Brexit supporters using health and safety as an excuse to get off work, whilst openly ignoring safety rules at other times and expecting others to pick up the pieces when they get injured.

Yeah, right, I bet you have. Where did you see them when we've been in lockdown.

These kind of generalisations are ridiculous and borderline insulting to anyone who voted remain who is a key worker or still going to work.  Do you have any data that only Brexit voters are brave enough to go to work?  Do you have any data that all frontline workers are Brexit supporters?

Generalisations you made up in your strawman. Do give it a rest.

[T00ts]

Sorry is this sarcastic?  I thought you supported Brexit but it appears you are saying that only elderly and brainless would support Brexit?

 ::  I was just playing to remain beliefs. Wouldn't that be their hope?

[Javert]

Normality, if that's what it really is, can't return until we have all been sick and/or died. With a much smaller pension requirement, far less claim on NHS skills - although we haven't factored in the lifelong lung damage that survivors will experience  and their ongoing healthcare needs - far fewer population thus needing far fewer jobs, there may be an argument for untrammelled immigration. Of course with the elderly and brainless being the hardest hit sectors another referendum might just win a remain vote.

Sorry is this sarcastic?  I thought you supported Brexit but it appears you are saying that only elderly and brainless would support Brexit?

[T00ts]

Just to point out it's always been part of the EU treaties that countries could close their borders in response to national security or public health emergencies - this is nothing new.

That may be I can't argue since I have no idea, but what I do remember is that as the borders closed Brussels was advocating immediate re-opening.

[Javert]

I guess that goes with the cry of women and children first. Over-rated I have always thought. We all know that women are the stronger sex!   :roll:



@ others who seem concerned to link responses to this crisis with whether one voted leave or remain, that seems a bit nonsensical to me. I will be out with my banner if the EU manages to twist arms in Westminster and we are forced to allow all and sundry into the country sick or not with no 14 day isolation, just because they feel they can and it's the EU ridiculous no border ideology. EU members were fast enough to resurrect borders when the virus hit them.

Just to point out it's always been part of the EU treaties that countries could close their borders in response to national security or public health emergencies - this is nothing new.

[Borchester]

Are you prepared to carry a sign out tomorrow night at 8pm calling them invertebrates and cowards?

Well no. Manners cost nothing. That said and as I mentioned in a previous post, I was on the bus a while back at 8pm on a Thursday when suddenly a lass started clapping and hollering and giving it loads. Everybody was pretty decent but finally an old boy asked what the F@@@ did she think she was doing and did the silly cow think she was a seal, whereupon she got all sulky and shut up.



The NHS has lost over thirty thousand of its customers and seems to think that it should be thanked accordingly. An odd organisation

[BeElBeeBub]

Well Toots, it would appear that the Germans are opening their borders to all and sundry next month. So you can protest as much as you like but I reckon that pretty soon the remainers on this board (slogan : Better a sick foreigner than a healthy Brit) will soon be demanding that the UK do the same.  

Right now, I would worry about Brits not being allowed into Europe rather than the other way around.



The UK has by almost any measure being amongst the worst hit in Europe.  It is still seeing the highest infection rates.



Furthermore, it is unlikely the UK will extend the transition, so from 1st Jan the arguments for allowing maximum movement across the borders will end.



EU countries, Schengen in particular will be free to restrict UK travel as much as possible without the UK having any recourse.  If CV is still uncontrolled in the UK whilst it is reasonably controlled within EU (a big if) I anticipate travel to Europe to be extremely restricted for Brits.



Ah! but we will do the same to them! you cry.  Yup we may do, but it won't matter as much to them as it will to us.

[BeElBeeBub]

I've posted another thread asking for comments on https://appeasement.org/">https://appeasement.org/ which is along similar lines.



The only thing I would challenge there is your two comments above - I think the generalisation is a bit fractured - I'd be interested to see some polling data aligning Brexit support with support for a herd immunity policy because I've seen quite a few anecdotal cases where someone's views were reversed from the above assumption.

It is a massive generalisation.



In general  those expressing views along the lines "we must restart the economy" - "more will die from recession" - "cure worse than the disease" - "it's just flu" also seem to be pro brexit.  Not always and I would note the "it's 5G!" brigade seem to be much more along the left wing axis and also anti brexit.



Barry here, possibly inadvertently, is illustrating my point (though I'm sure he will fall back on "it's satire and you've taken the bait you spinless EU sycophant"

I would tend to agree as those pro Brexit types seem to have a strong backbone and the pro EU types seem to be invertebrates who want to bring down Britain along with the government.



T00ts is an exception, as she is exceptional!

And to Barry I would point out that China, not famous for being pro EU, spineless or overly sentimental about their citizens well being has also chosen to take this seriously and go the lockdown, test, trace and isolate route.



I don't want to bring down the UK, to suggest so is childish and insulting.



Let's take it as read that both of us want what's best for the UK, our only difference is on how to achieve it.

[T00ts]

Well Toots, it would appear that the Germans are opening their borders to all and sundry next month. So you can protest as much as you like but I reckon that pretty soon the remainers on this board (slogan : Better a sick foreigner than a healthy Brit) will soon be demanding that the UK do the same.  

Normality, if that's what it really is, can't return until we have all been sick and/or died. With a much smaller pension requirement, far less claim on NHS skills - although we haven't factored in the lifelong lung damage that survivors will experience  and their ongoing healthcare needs - far fewer population thus needing far fewer jobs, there may be an argument for untrammelled immigration. Of course with the elderly and brainless being the hardest hit sectors another referendum might just win a remain vote.

[Borchester]

I guess that goes with the cry of women and children first. Over-rated I have always thought. We all know that women are the stronger sex!   :roll:



@ others who seem concerned to link responses to this crisis with whether one voted leave or remain, that seems a bit nonsensical to me. I will be out with my banner if the EU manages to twist arms in Westminster and we are forced to allow all and sundry into the country sick or not with no 14 day isolation, just because they feel they can and it's the EU ridiculous no border ideology. EU members were fast enough to resurrect borders when the virus hit them.

Well Toots, it would appear that the Germans are opening their borders to all and sundry next month. So you can protest as much as you like but I reckon that pretty soon the remainers on this board (slogan : Better a sick foreigner than a healthy Brit) will soon be demanding that the UK do the same.  

[T00ts]

Toots is on the sick and a lass and therefore entitled to worry about this bug. As to our EU loving friends I am reminded of Churchill's "We shall fight them on the beaches " speech to the House of Commons on 4 June. Having stiffened the spines of the EU supporters of the day he left the chamber and remarked to an aide, "That told the sods!"

I guess that goes with the cry of women and children first. Over-rated I have always thought. We all know that women are the stronger sex!   :roll:



@ others who seem concerned to link responses to this crisis with whether one voted leave or remain, that seems a bit nonsensical to me. I will be out with my banner if the EU manages to twist arms in Westminster and we are forced to allow all and sundry into the country sick or not with no 14 day isolation, just because they feel they can and it's the EU ridiculous no border ideology. EU members were fast enough to resurrect borders when the virus hit them.

[Borchester]

I would tend to agree as those pro Brexit types seem to have a strong backbone and the pro EU types seem to be invertebrates who want to bring down Britain along with the government.



T00ts is an exception, as she is exceptional!

Toots is on the sick and a lass and therefore entitled to worry about this bug. As to our EU loving friends I am reminded of Churchill's "We shall fight them on the beaches " speech to the House of Commons on 4 June. Having stiffened the spines of the EU supporters of the day he left the chamber and remarked to an aide, "That told the sods!"

[Borg Refinery]

Beevor is probably the best, so likely to be very good if it is highly rated by him.



Re the 1940 point, I'm reading that he was pretty unpopular initially but had won many over by the time Chamberlin died.



Is that true or pseudo history? The most interesting thing I could find was a bbc snippet which won't play on my device;



https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p009cmmr">https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p009cmmr



Maybe it'll work for you guys.

I found the whole lecture here;



https://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/the-war-lords--churchill/zv636v4">https://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/the-war-l ... ll/zv636v4">https://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/the-war-lords--churchill/zv636v4



There were actually multiple votes of no confidence moved against Churchill as late as 1942; although he won them, it was with a background of much wider unhappiness with his governance according to AJP Taylor.