Has BJ broken the spell?

[papasmurf]

These kind of generalisations are ridiculous and borderline insulting to anyone who voted remain who is a key worker or still going to work.  Do you have any data that only Brexit voters are brave enough to go to work?  Do you have any data that all frontline workers are Brexit supporters?

Precisely.

[Javert]

I would tend to agree as those pro Brexit types seem to have a strong backbone and the pro EU types seem to be invertebrates who want to bring down Britain along with the government.



T00ts is an exception, as she is exceptional!

Healthcare workers, care workers, and teachers who are risking their lives right now are quite heavily remain voters and more likely to be Labour or Lib Dem supporters, less likely to be Tory.



Are you prepared to carry a sign out tomorrow night at 8pm calling them invertebrates and cowards?



On the other side, I've seen many a case of extreme Brexit supporters using health and safety as an excuse to get off work, whilst openly ignoring safety rules at other times and expecting others to pick up the pieces when they get injured.



These kind of generalisations are ridiculous and borderline insulting to anyone who voted remain who is a key worker or still going to work.  Do you have any data that only Brexit voters are brave enough to go to work?  Do you have any data that all frontline workers are Brexit supporters?

[Borg Refinery]

Thats all true though borkie isnt it ? Many a truth said in jest as they say!



You ran away from europe with your tail between your legs in 1940 a heavily defeated army. Many in the uk parliament( according to author Tim Bouverie in "appeasing hitler" ) were indeed calling on the uk government at the time to come to terms with hitler and mussolini.



...and in case you forgot , or didnt know , many in the tory ranks hoped churchill would resign in the early days as they couldnt stand him , and regularly refused to acknowledge any of his speeches in the commons , often it was those in the opposition benches in support of what he said while his own ranks remained silent.



He was seen by them as a drunken bumbling fool respnsible for the humiliation at gallipoli who was somehow thrust into power and initially stumbled his way through the early part of the war until he became lionised years later.



...and here you invoke that famous anglo saxon "blitz spirit" to mock kuensberg and stave off any dissent to the current clown in charge.



I have no time myself for kuensberg or the bbc as you know ,  but no government is beyond criticism when they are making mistakes.



(Edit to add# you should have a read , it paints the beginning of WW2 in a much more sensible and truthfull light than the modern day fantasies that get bandied about....)



https://cdn.waterstones.com/bookjackets/large/9781/7847/9781784705749.jpg">

Beevor is probably the best, so likely to be very good if it is highly rated by him.



Re the 1940 point, I'm reading that he was pretty unpopular initially but had won many over by the time Chamberlin died.



Is that true or pseudo history? The most interesting thing I could find was a bbc snippet which won't play on my device;



https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p009cmmr">https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p009cmmr



Maybe it'll work for you guys.

[Borg Refinery]

I would tend to agree as those pro Brexit types seem to have a strong backbone and the pro EU types seem to be invertebrates who want to bring down Britain along with the government.



T00ts is an exception, as she is exceptional!

That's a variation on this -



https://imgbb.com/">



(in rik mayall accent) Bloody fashists!

[T00ts]

I would tend to agree as those pro Brexit types seem to have a strong backbone and the pro EU types seem to be invertebrates who want to bring down Britain along with the government.



T00ts is an exception, as she is exceptional!

Hang on a minute - my name in vain again. Am I an exception? I vote for leaders of the country. In doing that I expect those prepared to take the point for the rest of us, will LEAD, not vacillate and tear around looking busy doing not enough. I want my leaders to make decisions that are astute, show backbone and, based on the myriad of sources at their fingertips, make those calls that you and I are not in a position to make. For me that's why we have government, it's why we look carefully at those prepared to take up the mantle and make our choice. Yes to some extent it needs to be in line with my requirements and beliefs but if they do not make decisions that fit my criteria then I expect them to have sufficient capability to argue their point with some degree of persuasion that will encourage me to follow their lead.



The last few weeks started well enough. They followed the science they said, but as time has gone on what they have missed, in my view, is common sense. If we can see that things will go wrong why can't they? If we could see that care homes were a crisis waiting to happen, if we could see that too many idiots would run around doing their thing regardless, if we could see that people would leave London in their droves before lockdown, if we realised that holding Cheltenham Gold Cup would ramp up infection, if we could see that people would boycott hospitals and doctors and die rather than catch the virus, if we could see that GPs would run a mile rather than see patients, if we could see that anything short of Ebola protection clothes for medics would be too little, if we could see that Health England top dogs were lying to the Health Select C'tee, if we questioned in droves why airports were allowing the virus to walk through arrivals without checks, and the list goes on and on, the question has to be why couldn't they?



Even today they have said if you can work at home stay, if you need to go to work go. Who decides? Where is the child care without which it can't happen for too many. Everything is done according to media opinion it seems to me. Where is the backbone? Where is the leadership and where is the care for detail and the nouse to understand how life operates without Ministerial cars, security guards and back scratchers?



To say I am disappointed is an understatement. I look across Westminster and it seems that we are bereft as a Nation when it comes to intelligent leadership with a smidgen of common sense. Don't talk to me about the opposition - they are exactly the same. The last 5 decades we have lost the ability to stand up on our hind legs. It does not bode well for our future and I don't envy my grandchildren's prospects at all. Someone somewhere needs the ability to put some guts back into this country. The saddest thing of all is that too many don't even recognise the problem.   :rant:  :dncg:

[Barry]

As a generalisation:



Pro brexit -> it's just the flu, we're overreacting, end lockdown! Yay Boris!



Anti Brexit -> much worse than flu, lockdown was too late and we're loosening too early, gov has screwed up big time.



Which I find very odd.



I should note Toots is one poster here who seems to be extremely put out by the government's response yet was very pro brexit but in general the rule seems to hold.

I would tend to agree as those pro Brexit types seem to have a strong backbone and the pro EU types seem to be invertebrates who want to bring down Britain along with the government.



T00ts is an exception, as she is exceptional!

[Javert]

Pro brexit -> it's just the flu, we're overreacting, end lockdown! Yay Boris!



Anti Brexit -> much worse than flu, lockdown was too late and we're loosening too early, gov has screwed up big time.

I've posted another thread asking for comments on https://appeasement.org/">https://appeasement.org/ which is along similar lines.



The only thing I would challenge there is your two comments above - I think the generalisation is a bit fractured - I'd be interested to see some polling data aligning Brexit support with support for a herd immunity policy because I've seen quite a few anecdotal cases where someone's views were reversed from the above assumption.

[BeElBeeBub]

https://www.thetriumphforum.com/attachments/96371230_2668188000137193_6824168404404928512_n-jpeg.94795/">

Errr, the British PM who underestimated the threat from Hitler and didn't prepare enough *did* resign when it became obvious his policy had failed.



In the context of the current pandemic, "surrendering to Hitler" is exactly what many pro-brexit/librarian/pro business/Tory types want.



On the basis it's too damaging to the economy to continue to resist the spread of the virus, they want to end the restrictions and allow the virus to move unchecked across the country.



I should point out that many of the same people who said "there are things more important than the economy" a few months ago are now saying "CV is not enough reason for the economic damage".



As a generalisation:



Pro brexit -> it's just the flu, we're overreacting, end lockdown! Yay Boris!



Anti Brexit -> much worse than flu, lockdown was too late and we're loosening too early, gov has screwed up big time.



Which I find very odd.



I should note Toots is one poster here who seems to be extremely put out by the government's response yet was very pro brexit but in general the rule seems to hold.

[Thomas]

https://www.thetriumphforum.com/attachments/96371230_2668188000137193_6824168404404928512_n-jpeg.94795/">

Thats all true though borkie isnt it ? Many a truth said in jest as they say!



You ran away from europe with your tail between your legs in 1940 a heavily defeated army. Many in the uk parliament( according to author Tim Bouverie in "appeasing hitler" ) were indeed calling on the uk government at the time to come to terms with hitler and mussolini.



...and in case you forgot , or didnt know , many in the tory ranks hoped churchill would resign in the early days as they couldnt stand him , and regularly refused to acknowledge any of his speeches in the commons , often it was those in the opposition benches in support of what he said while his own ranks remained silent.



He was seen by them as a drunken bumbling fool respnsible for the humiliation at gallipoli who was somehow thrust into power and initially stumbled his way through the early part of the war until he became lionised years later.



...and here you invoke that famous anglo saxon "blitz spirit" to mock kuensberg and stave off any dissent to the current clown in charge.



I have no time myself for kuensberg or the bbc as you know ,  but no government is beyond criticism when they are making mistakes.



(Edit to add# you should have a read , it paints the beginning of WW2 in a much more sensible and truthfull light than the modern day fantasies that get bandied about....)



https://cdn.waterstones.com/bookjackets/large/9781/7847/9781784705749.jpg">

[Borchester]

https://www.thetriumphforum.com/attachments/96371230_2668188000137193_6824168404404928512_n-jpeg.94795/">

[Javert]

To summarise the above, the UK has as many or more deaths per capita than any other European country once you take all the spin a d BS out of it.



Those numbers probably need to be adjusted again later for age demographic if you want to compare internationally but I suspect that will make the UK look even worse, and I suspect we will eventually find that the main driver of that is lack of testing capability (both capacity and cycle time) and poor timing and strength of other social control measures.



The failures there are in no small part down to deliberate decisions taken by politicians rooted in "we know better" exceptionalism.

[BeElBeeBub]

This "blood on his hands" allegation is complete crap.

It's the sort of left wing rubbish that comes up when politicians get shot by right wing murderer A, then "right wing" Nigel Farage gets accused by the left of having blood on his hands. Utter tosh.



Now, whilst you are trying to destroy the government's, and Britain's reputation and would love to see us dive into a ditch to prove we needed to stay in the EU I'll just remind you of some comparable figures.

Before you do I'll remind you we have already left the EU.  There is no possibility of staying in the EU.

Belgium 756

Andorra 621

Spain 576

Italy 508

UK 472, those being deaths per million population.



I have difficulty seeing how these figures make the UK the worst in Europe. Because they do not.

As our government are (now) fond of saying comparison between countries isn't simple.



If we look at Belgium - they appear to have have the worst per capita in Europe at 756.



However if you look at their total it's 8,650ish. If you compare hat with their number of excess deaths (~8k) you will see that Belgium has classified almost all their excess deaths as CV.  Belgium has the most aggressive classification system in Europe (and probably the world).  They have been counting not only hospital but also care home and domestic deaths from the start and have not required a positive CV test to do so.  So if you die from breathing difficulties in a nursing home where several other residents have the symptoms and have tested +ve you'll be noted down as a CV death even if they never got around to testing you.  In the UK, they have required an actual test (though that may be changing)



If you look at the UK, our CV deaths are well below our excess deaths. In addition, the % of official CV deaths occurring of hospital has been suspiciously low.  Either our care home system is much better at preventing CV deaths (but is co-incidentally having a spate of entirely unrelated deaths) or a lot of CV deaths were going unregistered.



If you look at the estimates for excess deaths to the 10th May they are around the 50k mark (we won't know for another two weeks).  That would put our per capita deaths at or above Belgium's at somewhere in the 760 mark.



Maybe other countries will also have to adjust their data as time goes on, but in absolute and per capita the UK is the worst or very nearly the worst in Europe.



The FT has decided (sensibly IMHO) that because of the variability in how each country classifies a CV death the best measure is straight excess deaths (or more accurately deaths above the 5 year average for this time of year)



By that measure the UK is again one of the worst, if not the worst, in Europe.  Worryingly, Italy, Belgium and Spain are all further along in their progression, and given our lock down was lighter and shorter than theirs it doesn't look like they will overtake us (at least not in this phase)



Whichever way you slice it, the UK has not come out of this well.

[BeElBeeBub]

The latest bill of mortality has 210 dead, which is the lowest figure for over 6 weeks. So well done Boris

Just as an addendum to my previous post,  regarding the "weekend effect"



The daily figure for the 12th is a massive jump to 627.



Basically, the "daily" figure is near useless - the only half useful comparison is with the same day a week/fortnight etc ago and even then it's iffy if you have bank holidays.

[papasmurf]

I have difficulty seeing how these figures make the UK the worst in Europe. Because they do not.

But they are bad:-



data at link:-



https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/">https://www.statista.com/statistics/110 ... habitants/">https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/



Coronavirus (COVID-19) deaths worldwide per one million population as of May 12, 2020, by country

[Barry]

Although it's not BJ's fault that the pandemic exists:



The woeful communication is BJ's fault - he is in charge of the government.  



The incompetency of the cabinet (and himself) is BJ's fault - he appointed them.  He appointed them in the deliberate approach that blindly supporting his policy was the main requirement, and any level of competency merely coincidental.  On a macro view, this is by far the most incompetent cabinet we've every had in this country.



It is BJ's fault that the UK lost about 6 weeks of preparation time between the end of January and mid March - in the last days of January the Lancet published very detailed information about this virus and the threat it posed, and on 30th January the WHO declared their highest level of alert.  Meanwhile BJ was drinking champagne to celebrate Brexit and taking a "working holiday" to sort out his divorce with his ex-wife.  



He has blood on his hands.  If Johnson had taken correct action in February and/or introduced the lockdown a week or two earlier, the death rate would be half what it is now - all those lives are his decision.

This "blood on his hands" allegation is complete crap.

It's the sort of left wing rubbish that comes up when politicians get shot by right wing murderer A, then "right wing" Nigel Farage gets accused by the left of having blood on his hands. Utter tosh.



Now, whilst you are trying to destroy the government's, and Britain's reputation and would love to see us dive into a ditch to prove we needed to stay in the EU I'll just remind you of some comparable figures.



Belgium 756

Andorra 621

Spain 576

Italy 508

UK 472, those being deaths per million population.



I have difficulty seeing how these figures make the UK the worst in Europe. Because they do not.