Responsible by inaction?

[Nalaar]

Not enough people, not me.



"I certainly don't, do you?" - No.

 "Do you judge yourself for that?" - Yes

 "Should you?" - Yes.



You could just ask these questions straightaway without the extraneous story, or find far less disturbing analogies pal. Aren't we subject to enough fecking horrible news as it is?

Fair, I think we see things somewhat similarly.

The result of which (I think) is much less judgement of other people.

The story may seem inappropriate, but I find it's instinctive one sided responses helps  create an solid and agreeable base to build from.

[T00ts]

Toots I will save us having another conversation that will probably run parallel to other conversations we have had over the past few days - but just to pick up on this point specifically -







I don't want people to feel guilty, I want people to be honest with themselves.

How someone feels as a result of that honesty (whether it be guilt or any other emotion) is unimportant to me, however, I believe it is important to that person as an individual.

Why? Will it make you feel better? Do you think it will make others feel better? Are you 'honest' with yourself? Could you do more?

[Borg Refinery]

Some people do some things, sure, but who does the most they can do?

Not enough people, not me.



"I certainly don't, do you?" - No.

 "Do you judge yourself for that?" - Yes

 "Should you?" - Yes.



You could just ask these questions straightaway without the extraneous story, or find far less disturbing analogies pal. Aren't we subject to enough fecking horrible news as it is?

[Nalaar]

Toots I will save us having another conversation that will probably run parallel to other conversations we have had over the past few days - but just to pick up on this point specifically -

I don't quite understand your apparent focus on trying to make us all feel guilty for all the wrongs in the world.

I don't want people to feel guilty, I want people to be honest with themselves.

How someone feels as a result of that honesty (whether it be guilt or any other emotion) is unimportant to me, however, I believe it is important to that person as an individual.

[Nalaar]

No mate, who are these mythical people who do nothing?

Okay re the homeless you have a point, but that owes to dumb propaganda pumped out over generations.

Re kids, people usually try to help.

Re the hungry, we have food banks, folks try to help generally.

Your worldview doesn't accord with the real stuff I've observed

Some people do some things, sure, but who does the most they can do? I certainly don't, do you? Do you judge yourself for that? Should you?

[Borg Refinery]

Again I think this is a common and understandable response. However when put under scrutiny it starts to bend very quickly.



A common example is people who live rough, do you individually do everything we can for homeless people living in your town/city?

Are we morally responsible for the hunger of a who we could of helped, but chose not to?



We could extend this to children that we know will die if we do nothing, and for the most part, we willingly do nothing.

No mate, who are these mythical people who do nothing?



Okay re the homeless you have a point, but that owes to dumb propaganda pumped out over generations.



Re kids, people usually try to help.



Re the hungry, we have food banks, folks try to help generally.



Your worldview doesn't accord with the real stuff I've observed

[T00ts]

Again I think this is a common and understandable response. However when put under scrutiny it starts to bend very quickly.



A common example is people who live rough, do you individually do everything we can for homeless people living in your town/city?

Are we morally responsible for the hunger of a who we could of helped, but chose not to?



We could extend this to children that we know will die if we do nothing, and for the most part, we willingly do nothing.

All homeless people in my town are offered accommodation each night. As far as I'm aware there are none living on the streets at least overnight. My rates or whatever it is now called helps with that. During the day of course there are a few sitting begging. I will not give money but have been known to offer a hot drink/sandwich etc. Sometimes it is declined. Having said all that I came across a little tent parked under a low lying tree one Summer evening. I didn't see it at first since the tree branches covered it, but the strong smell emanating from it made me suddenly look carefully. Presumably they didn't want a different bed for the night.



I have jumped out of my car at about 11pm when I was fit enough and pulled my 5'3" up to full height  and using my very best teacher's voice stopped a 6 footer bottling his 'girlfriend' in the street. There has to be a certain amount of responsibility not to end up as the second victim. Then we don't help anyone. It was before mobiles so calling plod was off limits. My view is that yes if we see any crime we should intervene in some way. My daughter has been challenged with the same gene since she is very hands on in the face of criminal activity and on one occasion earned a written thank you from plod for sticking her foot out to trip a runaway they were failing to catch.



I don't quite understand your apparent focus on trying to make us all feel guilty for all the wrongs in the world. I have said before that most right thinking people do what they can but whatever effort is made it will never be enough to make everyone's life a bundle of continuous fun. For example what about the disabled person who no matter how you might try still has to live in that disabled body, something that may have occurred at birth? That's no fun. I am beginning to worry that you might be a depressive or at least well on the way to making yourself one.

[Nalaar]

We should do every feckin thing we can.

...

No we are responsible and I was taught to do what you can, even if you die or get badly hurt you just have to.

Again I think this is a common and understandable response. However when put under scrutiny it starts to bend very quickly.



A common example is people who live rough, do you individually do everything we can for homeless people living in your town/city?

Are we morally responsible for the hunger of a who we could of helped, but chose not to?



We could extend this to children that we know will die if we do nothing, and for the most part, we willingly do nothing.

[Nalaar]

It puts the government in the spotlight.

Legally sure (though i think there are reasonable questions to be raised)

Personally however I'm more interested in the individuals moral responsibility.

[Borg Refinery]

I think most people are in agreement that Cash is in some way responsible, legally and morally.



But once this clear bright line is placed, it then puts a spotlight on ourselves. How morally responsible are we for avoidable deaths?

We should do every feckin thing we can.



My old man was stuck in Finsbury Park, very unwell and cold. Then some evil, evil demonic rat decides to try and threaten and coerce some poor little lost Orthodox Jewish kids at the bus stop.... he seemed like a nonce. Just little kids...innocent and defenceless. Luckily my pa's a on-and-off seriously psychotic fruitloop, and he scared nonce guy off and got the kids phoning their big sister who got thm safely back home.



Thank the Lord that he was there, who knows what would have happened to those dear kids?



No we are responsible and I was taught to do what you can, even if you die or get badly hurt you just have to.

[papasmurf]

I think most people are in agreement that Cash is in some way responsible, legally and morally.



But once this clear bright line is placed, it then puts a spotlight on ourselves. How morally responsible are we for avoidable deaths?

It puts the government in the spotlight.

[Nalaar]

The answer is either a garrotte or the end of a rifle.

I think most people are in agreement that Cash is in some way responsible, legally and morally.



But once this clear bright line is placed, it then puts a spotlight on ourselves. How morally responsible are we for avoidable deaths?

[papasmurf]

Should inaction be considered illegal?

It already is illegal in some countries, France being one of them:-



www.legifrance.gouv.fr%2Fcontent%2Flocation%2F1740&usg=AOvVaw3jcyV4oaCp1UJSRlrN8AwQ

ARTICLE 223-5

(Ordinance No. 2000-916 of 19 September 2000 Article 3 Official Journal of 22 September into force 1 January 2002)

 Wilfully obstructing the arrival of help intended save a person from an imminent peril or to combat a disaster which

endangers the safety of persons is punished by seven years' imprisonment and a fine of €100,000.

ARTICLE 223-6

(Ordinance No. 2000-916 of 19 September 2000 Article 3 Official Journal of 22 September into force 1 January 2002)

 Anyone who, being able to prevent by immediate action a felony or a misdemeanour against the bodily integrity of a

person, without risk to himself or to third parties, wilfully abstains from doing so, is punished by five years' imprisonment

and a fine of €75,000.

 The same penalties apply to anyone who wilfully fails to offer assistance to a person in danger which he could

himself provide without risk to himself or to third parties, or by initiating rescue operations.

ARTICLE 223-7

(Ordinance No. 2000-916 of 19 September 2000 Article 3 Official Journal of 22 September into force 1 January 2002)

 Anyone who voluntarily abstains from taking or initiating measures, which involve no risk to himself or to third

parties, to combat a natural disaster likely to endanger the safety of others is punished by two years' imprisonment

[Borg Refinery]

The answer is either a garrotte or the end of a rifle.



Horrible story btw, you post really life sucking stuff..

[Nalaar]

I will start this by saying it is an unpleasant story, and while I will keep the details here brief, if one looks for the full story online expect that it will be more graphic.



In the spring of 1997, Strohmeyer (18) and Cash (17) went to a gambling resort in Nevada. After a night of gambling Strohmeyer saw and followed 7 year old Sherrice Iverson into the women's toilets. While he was assaulting her Cash entered the toilets, saw Strohmeyer assaulting her in the bathroom stall, and left. A little later the 2 men meet, Strohmeyer confessed that he sexually assaulted and murdered the girl. He is currently serving life in prison without parole.



Cash however is not in prison, in-fact he was never charged with a crime, as in Nevada it is not illegal to do nothing. This was understandably unpopular, but the decision was upheld. In a media report Cash said "The simple fact remains I don't know this little girl ... I don't know people in Panama or Africa who are killed every day, so I can't feel remorse for them."



Two questions follow from this -

Should inaction be considered illegal? If you witness a crime and don't attempt to stop it, are you assisting the crime?

and (less divisive but much more important to us individually) are we morally responsible for the death of someone that we could prevent, but chose not to?