Care Homes

[Barry]

Those figures are from the EU statisticians, so almost certainly flawed, Javert.  

[Javert]

Is this based on the official government number of deaths directly caused by Covid-19 in Care homes or the excess deaths?  I think there will be a re-assessment of this because the ONS data shows a huge gap between the number of unexplained extra deaths in care homes compared to the 5 year rolling average for the time of year than what is explained by the official government number.  



It's highly unlikely that this huge gap is entirely explained by other factors than the Covid-19 pandemic - even if those people died of something else, if they might have otherwise survived by being admitted into hospital, that's a death caused by the pandemic (or at least caused by our response to it).

[Barry]

A new report from EU's Centre for Disease Prevention and Control on the prevalence of Covid-19 in long term care facilities includes a useful comparison between European countries, which may surprise British commentators. The EU's numbers show that the prevalence of deaths in UK care homes is comparatively lower as a percentage than in other European countries.



Spain 66%

Norway 61% (including out of hospital settings)

Belgium 51%

Sweden 50%

France 50%

Germany 37%

UK 21%

In the UK, according to the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control, 21% deaths have occurred in care homes as of last week's statistics, far below most EU counterparts.

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/sites/default/files/documents/covid-19-long-term-care-facilities-surveillance-guidance.pdf">//https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/sites/default/files/documents/covid-19-long-term-care-facilities-surveillance-guidance.pdf

[papasmurf]

Great and useful result, then.

But on the topic of care homes: if many of them are private companies, and not part of the NHS or state welfare system, why is the government being blamed for not supplying PPE and other gear which, after all, surely should be the responsibility of the care home owners to provide...?

Private nursing home had not buffer stored PPE either.

[patman post]

I approach problems methodically and it takes a devious mind to find a devious bastard.

I found him when no-one else could. He had swanned off with  the thick end of £2 million. I did inform the authorities but by the time they got their act together he had gone back to India and disappeared over  there. (He will be arrested if he ever steps foot back in the UK.)

Great and useful result, then.

But on the topic of care homes: if many of them are private companies, and not part of the NHS or state welfare system, why is the government being blamed for not supplying PPE and other gear which, after all, surely should be the responsibility of the care home owners to provide...?

[papasmurf]

No Pappy, it ain't. To you it is a big thing because you approach all problems with an open mouth and a closed mind, but for the rest of us it is pretty doable

I approach problems methodically and it takes a devious mind to find a devious bastard.

I found him when no-one else could. He had swanned off with  the thick end of £2 million. I did inform the authorities but by the time they got their act together he had gone back to India and disappeared over  there. (He will be arrested if he ever steps foot back in the UK.)

[Borchester]

It is when they disappear.

No Pappy, it ain't. To you it is a big thing because you approach all problems with an open mouth and a closed mind, but for the rest of us it is pretty doable

[papasmurf]

 Finding folk is not that difficult.

It is when they disappear.

[Borchester]

Your personal experience does not extrapolate to the national picture, more nursing/care homes have been shutting down than opening for a long time.

I am frankly surprised given the amount of news items and current affairs programs about it going back at least ten years you are not aware of it.

On a personal level I have twice had to fight to get redundancy money for my wife when nursing home owners have just disappeared and left other to pick up the pieces and rehome the patients elsewhere. (I even went to the time and trouble to find out where one of the owners had disappeared to, and made sure he knew I knew.)

I am not sure what I am supposed to make of all this Pappy.



Most care homes are limited companies whose owners are the share holders and as such are liable for sod all. If a business is run as a sole trader or partnership then anyone you catch is liable for the organization's debts, but you have to be a bit dim to leave yourself exposed to such an extend, so I can only assume that the people your wife worked for were either very poor business folk or they were very small outfits.



As to you going to the time and trouble to track your wife's ex employers down, I once tracked down and served a bankruptcy petition on a chap who was operating under three different names. It took me a fortnight and that was only because the weather was nice and I was dragging my feet. Finding folk is not that difficult. So well done Pappy but don't expect a cigar.

[papasmurf]

You are right of course Pappy. I don't know how I dare argue with you. I spent nearly thirty years trying to extract taxes from the care home business and thereby studying their business models, but clearly my experience can never hope to compare with yours.

Your personal experience does not extrapolate to the national picture, more nursing/care homes have been shutting down than opening for a long time.

I am frankly surprised given the amount of news items and current affairs programs about it going back at least ten years you are not aware of it.

On a personal level I have twice had to fight to get redundancy money for my wife when nursing home owners have just disappeared and left other to pick up the pieces and rehome the patients elsewhere. (I even went to the time and trouble to find out where one of the owners had disappeared to, and made sure he knew I knew.)

[Barry]

It does seem that the care home industry will have lost between 8,000 and 10,000 clients before this is over. Now, my mother was costing £750 per week which was on the low side, so it looks like the industry has lost nearly 400 million pounds in income, per annum.

It might be a little easier to find an empty room, because when we were looking for one for my mother it was a bit difficult to find one.

[Borchester]

Your personal experience does not match the national situation.



From the Torygraph, (this was before covid.)



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/12/27/number-new-care-homes-outpaced-closures-eighth-year/">https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... ghth-year/">https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/12/27/number-new-care-homes-outpaced-closures-eighth-year/

There have been more than 600 openings of care homes in England this year, but in excess of 900 closures, leading to a total loss of 23,452 beds, according to data commissioned by The Telegraph from the Care Quality Commission, England's health and social care watchdog.27 Dec 2019

You are right of course Pappy. I don't know how I dare argue with you. I spent nearly thirty years trying to extract taxes from the care home business and thereby studying their business models, but clearly my experience can never hope to compare with yours.

[papasmurf]

 I never found a Winding Up Petition for a care home.

Your personal experience does not match the national situation.



From the Torygraph, (this was before covid.)



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/12/27/number-new-care-homes-outpaced-closures-eighth-year/">https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... ghth-year/">https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/12/27/number-new-care-homes-outpaced-closures-eighth-year/

There have been more than 600 openings of care homes in England this year, but in excess of 900 closures, leading to a total loss of 23,452 beds, according to data commissioned by The Telegraph from the Care Quality Commission, England's health and social care watchdog.27 Dec 2019

[Borchester]

I suspect this could just be the start, many care/nursing homes were hanging on by a thread before the pandemic:-

Most care/nursing homes have been hanging on by  a thread since care/nursing homes were invented. At bottom they are mostly property developers who buy up rambling ruins or hotels that have gone broke and use the fees from the residents to pay the mortgages and upkeep. Then when the market rises they sell up and move on.



It is not a bad business. There are a lot of residents who won't be moving out anytime soon so the owners have a supposedly reliable revenue stream. The  problems are



(a) staff costs. It is a labour intensive business. The owners always seem to start out with the idea that all they  need are a few locals with good hearts, strong backs and the desire to work for next to nothing. They are usually lucky on the last three but invariably need more of the first than they expect.



(b) their core business is the NHS and local authorities and as anyone who has ever worked for either will know, they are bastards for paying late. So old folks homes are usually permanently in debt.  



That said, when I wanted to get out of the office and started rummaging in the Writ box for an excuse, I never found a Winding Up Petition for a care home.

[papasmurf]

I suspect this could just be the start, many care/nursing homes were hanging on by a thread before the pandemic:-



https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-over-20-care-homes-warn-council-there-may-be-imminent-collapse-in-sector-11990572">https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus- ... r-11990572">https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-over-20-care-homes-warn-council-there-may-be-imminent-collapse-in-sector-11990572



Tuesday 19 May 2020 06:56, UK



More than 20 care homes in the northeast of England have sent a legal warning to their local council over fears of a collapse in the sector, Sky News can reveal.



In the letter the care homes have declared what is called "force majeure", or a major incident.



Sky News obtained a leaked copy sent to North Tyneside Council which warns that if action isn't taken to provide funding and support within five days the care market in that area will start to collapse.