Rejoice our new tariff schedule is out!

[cromwell]

I'm curious as to what these changes should be, and what your confidence level is that any of them will happen (EU or no EU) in, let's say, the next 10 years?

Thing is I see as many things wrong with the eu (you and beebly probably don't) as westminster,trying to reform the eu impossible IMO westminster hard but not impossible.



From beeblys reply to me

The argument that "we we can vote out our government if we don't like them" also rings a little hollow with the FTPA and FPTP voting system meaning we have almost no prospect of change over the next 5 years.



The argument that the Westminster system can only be reformed if we leave the EU also seems to go nowhere. Can you just the changes you would like to the UK system (eg voting changes, lords reform, abolition of monarchy etc) that being in the EU would have prevented? As far as I can see the only constitutional changes being an EU member makes more difficult are the ones we don't want to be doing anyway.

Voting changes,lords reform,accountability,burst the westminster bubble for starters.

[Javert]

Neither am I as it happens,if you'd read my many posts here and the previous forum you'd have seen my criticism of westminster and the political machine.

To briefly repeat what I said we need an overhaul of our political system,there is zero chance we can do that with Brussels but as I said once gone the work here needs to begin.

I'm curious as to what these changes should be, and what your confidence level is that any of them will happen (EU or no EU) in, let's say, the next 10 years?

[BeElBeeBub]

Neither am I as it happens,if you'd read my many posts here and the previous forum you'd have seen my criticism of westminster and the political machine.

To briefly repeat what I said we need an overhaul of our political system,there is zero chance we can do that with Brussels but as I said once gone the work here needs to begin.

The arguments that our government could do a better job on it's own rather than in cooperation with our neighbours via Brussels seems to be disproven by the recent shambles.



The argument that "we we can vote out our government if we don't like them" also rings a little hollow with the FTPA and FPTP voting system meaning we have almost no prospect of change over the next 5 years.



The argument that the Westminster system can only be reformed if we leave the EU also seems to go nowhere.  Can you just the changes you would like to the UK system (eg voting changes, lords reform, abolition of monarchy etc) that being in the EU would have prevented?  As far as I can see the only constitutional changes being an EU member makes more difficult are the ones we don't want to be doing anyway.



The argument that we were unable to effect change in the EU structures also seems to be false. The UK was the driver behind many large scale changes in EU governance - QMV, enlargement, single market.  Could we make unilateral changes? No, but then neither could the Germans, French, Italians or any other member.

[cromwell]

Me neither because in all the last years, nobody has made me a convincing case that the political element of it is inherently unacceptable or worse than the existing UK government structures that we already have.   I would raise the astonishing incompetence of our current government which seems to stumble from one disaster to another as increasing evidence every day.



It appears there is no disaster that they cannot make worse.



Of course for those who hold the United Kingdom with existing borders and its sovereignty as a spiritual sacred cow that can never be interfered with I guess it then makes sense.  I was never one for unquestioning loyalty myself.

Neither am I as it happens,if you'd read my many posts here and the previous forum you'd have seen my criticism of westminster and the political machine.

To briefly repeat what I said we need an overhaul of our political system,there is zero chance we can do that with Brussels but as I said once gone the work here needs to begin.

[Javert]

Well of course we see it differently,I have said many times were it the common market which we in effect joined we wouldn't be leaving would we?



It's the political project that has swayed so many,of course you wont see it that way.

Me neither because in all the last years, nobody has made me a convincing case that the political element of it is inherently unacceptable or worse than the existing UK government structures that we already have.   I would raise the astonishing incompetence of our current government which seems to stumble from one disaster to another as increasing evidence every day.



It appears there is no disaster that they cannot make worse.



Of course for those who hold the United Kingdom with existing borders and its sovereignty as a spiritual sacred cow that can never be interfered with I guess it then makes sense.  I was never one for unquestioning loyalty myself.

[cromwell]

they do.



but we'll have to pay more for cars from Tesla, VAG, Mercedes, BMW, Renault, Fiat etc etc.



It's not that there will be no cars and we'll be like Cuba-on-Thames, all driving around in old cars with home brewed internals, it's just the choice will be lower (unless you want to pay more).



like the Sun story about wine tariffs (that they have now re-written) it's another example where we were sold one thing and another thing has been delivered.



Remember when there would be no border in the irish sea?  When companies were told by the PM to phone him up and he'd tell them to "throw the forms in the bin"?  Now we are having a border in the irish sea.  Gove tells us there will be no "new" infrastructure.  However he concedes there may be extensions to existing infrastructure......The words "no new" are doing a lot of heavy lifting there.



At each and every turn the government (vote Leave really) have promised XYZ and at each turn they have failed to deliver.



Their only promise kept has been to leave the EU (albeit late).  That's always been the easy bit.  



Stepping off a skyscraper is easy. The hard bit is doing so without causing massive damage to yourself

Well of course we see it differently,I have said many times were it the common market which we in effect joined we wouldn't be leaving would we?



It's the political project that has swayed so many,of course you wont see it that way.

[BeElBeeBub]

Well you made play of the fact there would be no change of tariff of cars from south korea,both kia and hyundai are from there and make excellent electric cars.

they do.



but we'll have to pay more for cars from Tesla, VAG, Mercedes, BMW, Renault, Fiat etc etc.



It's not that there will be no cars and we'll be like Cuba-on-Thames, all driving around in old cars with home brewed internals, it's just the choice will be lower (unless you want to pay more).



like the Sun story about wine tariffs (that they have now re-written) it's another example where we were sold one thing and another thing has been delivered.



Remember when there would be no border in the irish sea?  When companies were told by the PM to phone him up and he'd tell them to "throw the forms in the bin"?  Now we are having a border in the irish sea.  Gove tells us there will be no "new" infrastructure.  However he concedes there may be extensions to existing infrastructure......The words "no new" are doing a lot of heavy lifting there.



At each and every turn the government (vote Leave really) have promised XYZ and at each turn they have failed to deliver.



Their only promise kept has been to leave the EU (albeit late).  That's always been the easy bit.  



Stepping off a skyscraper is easy. The hard bit is doing so without causing massive damage to yourself

[cromwell]

Car sales are a tricky one.



Regardless of the various emissions scandals (which related more to NO2 than CO2) a 2020 car will (on a like for like basis) be more fuel efficient than the car it replaces.



On the other hand there is the "cost of manufacture & disposal argument"



Either way, I don't think making cars more expensive for UK consumers or damaging the UK car manufacturing sector will have a direct positive effect on climate, certainly not compared to (for example) changes in travel habits due to CV19



There is also the issue of the electrification of cars.



We seem on the brink of the $100/kWh battery, where it is reckoned a new electric car will be cheaper to build than an equivalent diesel/petrol car



At that point there will (probably) be a big swing as the sales of new ICE cars plummet to be replaced by electric sales



The co2 emissions of the national "fleet" will start to head down rapidly at that point - as long as the cars can be replaced cheaply.



At this point any electric car produced outside the UK will cost more. the economics of car making means that at best only a handful of car models will be made in the UK (probably mostly luxury brands), so less polluting electric cars may be replaced at a slower rate than they other wise would be  - a net negative.

Well you made play of the fact there would be no change of tariff of cars from south korea,both kia and hyundai are from there and make excellent electric cars.

[BeElBeeBub]

That's still only an attack in your mind,when you post that brexit voters are more likely to be climate change deniers then is that ad hom attack?

no it's an opinion,do please be less sensitive.



You have posted your belief on climate change,wouldn't less cars sold please you if you believe they contribute to that? especially since you quote so often on leavers claims about how it will be painful for them.....especially since they were caught cheating about emissions.

Car sales are a tricky one.



Regardless of the various emissions scandals (which related more to NO2 than CO2) a 2020 car will (on a like for like basis) be more fuel efficient than the car it replaces.



On the other hand there is the "cost of manufacture & disposal argument"



Either way, I don't think making cars more expensive for UK consumers or damaging the UK car manufacturing sector will have a direct positive effect on climate, certainly not compared to (for example) changes in travel habits due to CV19



There is also the issue of the electrification of cars.



We seem on the brink of the $100/kWh battery, where it is reckoned a new electric car will be cheaper to build than an equivalent diesel/petrol car



At that point there will (probably) be a big swing as the sales of new ICE cars plummet to be replaced by electric sales



The co2 emissions of the national "fleet" will start to head down rapidly at that point - as long as the cars can be replaced cheaply.



At this point any electric car produced outside the UK will cost more. the economics of car making means that at best only a handful of car models will be made in the UK (probably mostly luxury brands), so less polluting electric cars may be replaced at a slower rate than they other wise would be  - a net negative.

[cromwell]

not denying I said that there seems to be an overlap between brexit voters and climate change deniers.  that's not an ad hom attack



it's implying I'm pleased that cars are going to be more expensive.



whether or not i am pleased about it is irrelevant to the central fact the new tariff schedule is unlikely to make anything cheaper because the majority of our imports come in at 0% already (and no NTBs) and future imports will either stay at 0% or actually go up.

That's still only an attack in your mind,when you post that brexit voters are more likely to be climate change deniers then is that ad hom attack?

no it's an opinion,do please be less sensitive.



You have posted your belief on climate change,wouldn't less cars sold please you if you believe they contribute to that? especially since you quote so often on leavers claims about how it will be painful for them.....especially since they were caught cheating about emissions.

[BeElBeeBub]

Quoting what you said is an attack,if you say so :shrg:

not denying I said that there seems to be an overlap between brexit voters and climate change deniers.  that's not an ad hom attack



it's implying I'm pleased that cars are going to be more expensive.



whether or not i am pleased about it is irrelevant to the central fact the new tariff schedule is unlikely to make anything cheaper because the majority of our imports come in at 0% already (and no NTBs) and future imports will either stay at 0% or actually go up.

[cromwell]

Not particularly pleased.



I notice you chose to make this an ad hom attack, I assume because you don't actually have any other arguments.



Daily Mail readers were told brexit (and in particular a hard brexit) will make things cheaper.



Sun readers are being mislead because the Sun (again) has misunderstood tariffs.



Turkeys are voting for Christmas

Quoting what you said is an attack,if you say so :shrg:

[BeElBeeBub]

Has a look at the schedules proper



Of the approximately 12k tariff lines



(rounding means the sums don't match)



4k have been "simplified" - i.e. rounded down to nearest whole %

5k are unchanged either as they are % or in the case of fixed tariffs the currency has been converted

2k have been liberalized i.e. reduced, often to zero



Of the liberalized tariff lines just over half have been dropped from more than 5%t (that's to say they were at 5% or more and are now at zero)



Importantly, I realized that the tariffs on motor vehicles have dropped to 10% from 22%



So cars from places we don't currently have a trade deal with will get slightly cheaper (22% -> 10%) but cars from the EU and other places we currently have FTAs with (eg Japan) will get more expensive.



So my earlier post about the DM was partly incorrect

[BeElBeeBub]

Oh well you must be pleased,didn't you tell us climate change deniers more likely to vote Brexit,as Jog has pointed out Greta will be ecstatic......you too?

Not particularly pleased.



I notice you chose to make this an ad hom attack, I assume because you don't actually have any other arguments.



Daily Mail readers were told brexit (and in particular a hard brexit) will make things cheaper.



Sun readers are being mislead because the Sun (again) has misunderstood tariffs.



Turkeys are voting for Christmas

[cromwell]

Daily Mail letting it's readers know cars are likely to get more expensive.



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/cars/article-8336985/European-cars-1-500-expensive-Brexit-10-import-tariffs.html">https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/cars/ ... riffs.html">https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/cars/article-8336985/European-cars-1-500-expensive-Brexit-10-import-tariffs.html



However, in typical style they mislead by omission.



Yes, cars imported from the EU will be subject to a 10% tariff.



But so will cars from around the world.



The only cars that will not see a tariff imposed will be those made in the UK and S.Korea.



In summary



Cars that will be more expensive - all cars from the EU plus any countries where the EU has a trade agreement.



Cars that will stay the same - any car made in the UK (with the caveat that parts may be more expensive so pushing the final price up) and South Korean cars



Cars that will get cheaper - None



Obviously currency movement will overlay the above.

Oh well you must be pleased,didn't you tell us climate change deniers more likely to vote Brexit,as Jog has pointed out Greta will be ecstatic......you too?