Cummings Breaks the Rules.

[Borg Refinery]

ok i understand , but you dont have an english snp which is a problem when it comes to elections , and hence why if you are merely arguing tory bad , with respect it gets you no where.



Pappy smurf has that same problem on this very forum and a previous one , where he is derided by all and sundry , left right and centre for constantly screaming tory bad.

He's not wrong either is he? I don't go around talking of kneecapping them tho.



Would you insinuate I'm a "Labour is bad" knuckledragger if I said the same about them in power? Because I did.



I'm a moany git, I'll not pretend otherwise.

Ok , but that didnt happen by accident , you have to work at it. The snp would never have gotten into power by shouting tory bad non stop and offering nothing else.



You cant break the wheel by standing at the side and hoping one day things might fall into place.

Agreed, but you're in effect telling me to start my own party.



That isn't possible.

Exactly , but forgive me you are now contradicting yourself. How can brexit be a sole tory contruct when many english lefties also support it?

Who ran the campaigns?

Your polling graph only goes back to 2013. Im not sure what this proves in your mind , im talking over a longer timeframe  , where views became entrenched in england.



The fact of the matter the vote uk wide was so close on the day , and marginally far less so in england , that cameron took a massive gamble in the process.



The evidence isnt clear at all im afraid , excpet to show there has been a large eurosceptic view in england for many years hovering around the tipping point , and that i suspect many of the brexit views were made up long before the referendum campaigning began.

https://imgbb.com/">

The english left had the backing of the british state , and you still lost. [/quote]



Um. You concede that many, maybe most, of the left supported Brexit?  :shock:

So we have went from nigel farage being replaced as the devil incarnate on the englsh left to it now being cummings?



Again , i suspect this is the simlar mentality to salmond being replaced by sturgeon as the same devil of the english left.



The fact though you acknowledge my point on farage shows how brexit wasnt just a tory movement. Indeed , prominent tories wanted remain too.

Not just Tory, but principally Tory, same with Remain.

Code [Select] Expand

...it was the pro european tories in mays government including may herself who were the instruments of remain thwarting the 2016 referndum result for years.

Exactly. That's my point - the whole shitshow is their feckin fault Thanks for pointing that out.  :-P

::  Ask deppity dawg about the sneering eliteism of middle class lefties in england. He has a way with words i couldnt possibly match when describing them.

So do I, and me and him agree on that. Check the 'some sums' thread.



I don't qualify as middle class sadly.

Sorry mate i cant help you. You are on your own on this.

Cos you know there is no solution?



 ::



I agree

[B0ycey]

sigh#



I dont know how many times i need to explain this  , but no the scot indy ref isnt the same as the uk brexit ref.



For the simple reason 2014 indy ref was held , we agreed by the rules , and we lost , and the result implemented.



In 2016 , the ref was held , everyone beforehand agreed by the rules , remainers lost , but crucially the result wasnt implemented. Four years on , the uk is still taking eu rules and has one foot in the eu.

Well then you missed the point of advisory over parliamentary democracy. If you are splitting hairs that is what you get and so the example can be put that way and as such both votes are void.



The rest of your post actually doesn't address anything I have said. It is just nonsense and is nothing more than a strawman. So lets just tell you what I said, and you can sealion someone else if you want to make bollocks up to somehow justify that we should leave the EU. That is Remain had the most votes and Boris got into power because of FPTP. The UK is largely remain. And remain parties split their own vote. Oh and that the left-right divide is a genetation divide. That is it.

[Thomas]

Although couldn't the same argument be made about Scottish independence? Or do you believe that people don't have the right to change their mind and that it was a once in a generation thing?

sigh#



I dont know how many times i need to explain this  , but no the scot indy ref isnt the same as the uk brexit ref.



For the simple reason 2014 indy ref was held , we agreed by the rules , and we lost , and the result implemented.



In 2016 , the ref was held , everyone beforehand agreed by the rules , remainers lost , but crucially the result wasnt implemented. Four years on , the uk is still taking eu rules and has one foot in the eu.

I believe your view is actually the same as mine on that regard

.



My view on referendums is simple , you hold a referendum , agree the rules beforhand , and then implement the result. Then and only after the result is implemented , you can go on to hold as many more as you like , as long as each time the result is implemented.



English remainers appear to be arguing democracy doesnt apply to them when they lose ,only to everyone else which is why they are being laughed at.

Although in terms of Brexit, the issue was in regards to which democratic process had presidence over the other. Parliamentary or advisory?

Most referendums are advisory. Thats doesnt enable anti democrats a get out clause when they lose though does it?

? Not that the vote shouldn't have been respected. But that May should have listened to parliament if she wanted the UK to leave the EU.

utter bullshit.



parliament gave the people the say when they offered a referendum. What parliament then weent on to do was disagree with the publics clear voice , tie themselves in knots trying to pull the woll over peoples eyes and deny brexit in the process( of BRINO) and then westminster remainers paid the ultimate price for their folly in england especially in december.



Parliament didnt listen to the people when they asked the question , so in turn people didnt listen to them , and that way lies the end of the illusion of democracy.

Over whelming depends on what you call that.

Im basing it on the english barometer established in 2014 in scotland , when you told us 55% is an overwhelming majority for remaining in the uk , so therefore 54% in england in 2016 must equally be the same for brexit.


 

Although I have pointed out already the issue with votes and seats.

and i pointed out FPTP has been an issue in this respect since it was invented  , so why is it only a prbolem when brexit was involved over the last four years , but not a problem for tony blair for example in 2005?

Not that I am saying that England is pro EU or that they haven't got a very very slim 'leave' majority. But that recent polls have even England as 50/50ish and that if we had another referendum, I suspect even there they will vote remain.

Talk is cheap.



Apart from the fact we have heard this now about this silent majority polling remain for years , but never appearing when the real votes are counted , no one will respect your referendum if you dont respect their 2016 referendum. That way lies the end of democracy.

The rest of your response is complete nonsense, a strawman at best or just missing the point that the Left isn't dead but an age divide that requires time to rectify.

The english left have been saying the same thing about the age divide and demographics worrking i ntheir favour eventually for the last century , and the tories not only are in complete control today in 2020 , but have won the majortiy of elections during that time.



So no its not a straw man  to mention the utter jam tommorrow crap i personally have heard all my lifetime from the "brit  left". You are further from power now than you were decades ago.

[patman post]

Seems to me that many Brexit supporters are scared that if Cummings goes, Brexit will be delayed and are blaming Remainers for the witch hunt. Even Farage feared as much on LBC this morning.



Then there's other Tory Brexit supporters who think that if Cummings stays, the government and party will lose substantial long-term and new support from around the country. It must be a dilemma for a PM who still appears not to be firing on all cylinders...

[Thomas]

You know my views, about confederalism etc. I'm also a Orthodox believer as you can see from my signature.



Almost no one I've met in my entire life shares my political views (maybe 3 people max), let alone a party, and my fellow religious folk are ultra-right Orthodox guys who believe in a Monarchist Byzantine, or Kievan Rus type state.  ::



In a word, there is more chance of winning the lottery than finding a party to support. I'd say Corbyn shared less than 4% of my views. That's just me being honest, that's how things are whether I like it or not.



I wish we had a English version of the SNP, they might share 4-5% of my views at best.

ok i understand , but you dont have an english snp which is a problem when it comes to elections , and hence why if you are merely arguing tory bad , with respect it gets you no where.



Pappy smurf has that same problem on this very forum and a previous one , where he is derided by all and sundry , left right and centre for constantly screaming tory bad.

The difference is, the SNP are the obvious choice in Scotland. In England we have no real choice, we were given Goldman Sachs Tories or nasty UKIP loving Tories.

Ok , but that didnt happen by accident , you have to work at it. The snp would never have gotten into power by shouting tory bad non stop and offering nothing else.



You cant break the wheel by standing at the side and hoping one day things might fall into place.

. Many lefties actually supported Brexit.

Exactly , but forgive me you are now contradicting yourself. How can brexit be a sole tory contruct when many english lefties also support it?

Proving that their campaign is what fecked it. They drove supporters away.



The evidence is clear as day

.



Your polling graph only goes back to 2013. Im not sure what this proves in your mind , im talking over a longer timeframe  , where views became entrenched in england.



The fact of the matter the vote uk wide was so close on the day , and marginally far less so in england , that cameron took a massive gamble in the process.



The evidence isnt clear at all im afraid , excpet to show there has been a large eurosceptic view in england for many years hovering around the tipping point , and that i suspect many of the brexit views were made up long before the referendum campaigning began.

They did, with sneering elitist "Brexiters are fick" arguments and look what happened?

The english left had the backing of the british state , and you still lost. Not just using this argument you highlight , but brexiters were saling on the back of the english public tide of opinion , which was decidedly anti european long before the vote .

Along with many senior Tories.



What about Cummings? Does he not count? Was he not more instrumental than Nigel?

So we have went from nigel farage being replaced as the devil incarnate on the englsh left to it now being cummings?



Again , i suspect this is the simlar mentality to salmond being replaced by sturgeon as the same devil of the english left.



The fact though you acknowledge my point on farage shows how brexit wasnt just a tory movement. Indeed , prominent tories wanted remain too.

Both Remain & Brexit campaigns were run mainly by Tories in England.

And other parties as has been acknowledged , which shows the fallacy of blaming one party over this shitshow. Indeed , it was the pro european tories in mays government including may herself who were the instruments of remain thwarting the 2016 referndum result for years.

No, but he hates the sneering elitism of Remainers and their campaign.



Ask him - he clearly said this many times

 ::  Ask deppity dawg about the sneering eliteism of middle class lefties in england. He has a way with words i couldnt possibly match when describing them.

I know but I'm interested in your opinion as an individual, it has nothing to do with where you are from.

Sorry mate i cant help you. You are on your own on this.

[B0ycey]

ok , but my point remains. The problem you had in subsequent elections was you held a vote in 2016 , remainers lost  , and then proceeded to behave like spoilt children unable to accpet democracy when it went agains them. So much so it pushed the pro brexit vote up from 54% in england in 2016 to 58% in 2019.



Your anti democratic stance saw you lose those elections.

Although couldn't the same argument be made about Scottish independence? Or do you believe that people don't have the right to change their mind and that it was a once in a generation thing? I believe your view is actually the same as mine on that regard. Although in terms of Brexit, the issue was in regards to which democratic process had presidence over the other. Parliamentary or advisory? Not that the vote shouldn't have been respected. But that May should have listened to parliament if she wanted the UK to leave the EU.

Where?



The english overwhelmingly voted brexit in 2016....check.



The english overwhelmingly backed pro brexit parties over five elections....check.



If im missing english opinion over brexit , why havent remainers won? Its not as if they havent had chance after chance to do so is it?

Over whelming depends on what you call that. Although I have pointed out already the issue with votes and seats. Not that I am saying that England is pro EU or that they haven't got a very very slim 'leave' majority. But that recent polls have even England as 50/50ish and that if we had another referendum,  I suspect even there they will vote remain.



The rest of your response is complete nonsense, a strawman at best or just missing the point that the Left isn't dead but an age divide that requires time to rectify.

[Borg Refinery]

Without a doubt mate, but the point is most folk have their political views and a party roughly in line with those views to vote for and at least have a small chance , however marginal , of getting into power.



Mines the SNP. How about you in England?

You know my views, about confederalism etc. I'm also a Orthodox believer as you can see from my signature.



Almost no one I've met in my entire life shares my political views (maybe 3 people max), let alone a party, and my fellow religious folk are ultra-right Orthodox guys who believe in a Monarchist Byzantine, or Kievan Rus type state.  ::



In a word, there is more chance of winning the lottery than finding a party to support. I'd say Corbyn shared less than 4% of my views. That's just me being honest, that's how things are whether I like it or not.



I wish we had a English version of the SNP, they might share 4-5% of my views at best.

ok i understand what you are saying while i fundamentally disagree with it.



?That sounds suspicously like what i hear many of the english/brit left say about the snp , that somehow the snp voted themselves into power with out the approval of the people , and proceeded to brainwash the scottish public. I think its a cop out.

Not at all.



Your country's survival versus being part of a largely voluntary union with the EU, where folks like Orban can do what he likes?



The difference is, the SNP are the obvious choice in Scotland. In England we have no real choice, we were given Goldman Sachs Tories or nasty UKIP loving Tories.



What feckin choice is that? You know that's how it was, it was 100% headed by Cameron and Osbourne, the lefties did almost nothing. Many lefties actually supported Brexit.

The anti european feeling in england was there long before cameron came to power. He merely tried to harness it for his own ends and it backfired spectacularly.

Nope, see that chart-



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum">https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion ... referendum">https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum



Proving that their campaign is what fecked it. They drove supporters away.



The evidence is clear as day.

My point is the english left should have been out doing their best to persuade people of the merits of the eu , rather than screaming ukip/tory are bad.

They did, with sneering elitist "Brexiters are fick" arguments and look what happened?

och come oan mate , nigel farage was one of the most prominent brexiter faces in europe , oftern critical of the tories , and often in the line of fire of english remainers.

Along with many senior Tories.



What about Cummings? Does he not count? Was he not more instrumental than Nigel?



"Brexit was a coalition of many in english politics , and their supporters including many labour heartleands who wanted out of europe."



Both Remain & Brexit campaigns were run mainly by Tories in England.



"I cant see cromwell on this forum for example being brainwahsed into voting brexit by the tories."



No, but he hates the sneering elitism of Remainers and their campaign.



Ask him - he clearly said this many times

Its no down to me to tell you what to do in your own country mate . England is a totally different country to scotland , and much more to the right , and you have differing problems to what we have.



This isnt aimed at you , but what i dislike about englands left is that for a long time ,they have said scotlands sole reason to exist is somehow to hold the english lefts hands and i dont like it one little bit.



England can overcome its difficulties on its own , and you will. You need to reach out to your own people instead of asking me , and try and understand why they vote the way they do.

I know but I'm interested in your opinion as an individual, it has nothing to do with where you are from.

Thankyou for the sentiments , but outwith discussion on forums like this it doesnt make a blind bit of difference as you dont have a vote or say over scottish indy , and that at the end of the day is all that matters.



We are at 50% already , and tipping point has been reached , and you need to prepare yourselves for life after the uk .

Maybe I can get myself deported to somewhere hot by faking being on a Chilean passport, or marry a hot, rich Russian woman (there was a very vague chance of that once...) and escape.

[Thomas]

Sorry. I should have been clear. I meant the elections after the Brexit referendum.

ok , but my point remains. The problem you had in subsequent elections was you held a vote in 2016 , remainers lost  , and then proceeded to behave like spoilt children unable to accpet democracy when it went agains them. So much so it pushed the pro brexit vote up from 54% in england in 2016 to 58% in 2019.



Your anti democratic stance saw you lose those elections.

I think it is you who is missing the "English" opinion actually.

Where?



The english overwhelmingly voted brexit in 2016....check.



The english overwhelmingly backed pro brexit parties over five elections....check.



If im missing english opinion over brexit , why havent remainers won? Its not as if they havent had chance after chance to do so is it?

It is true that they have more pro Brexiteers than Scotland, but it largely divided on this issue even south of the wall

so is every political position in every country in the world. Your point is?

It isn't like you from Scotland is the only voice for the EU on here.

im not claiming i am , so dont misrepresent what i am saying. Im saying there is no "british remain " majority , and never will be . Im pro european but anti uk. Its not difficult to understand boycey.

The majority I suspect who support the EU on this very forum are English!

 :: Let me take a wild stab in the dark here mate and say the majority on this forum are english .



What actually is your point though? You english remainers need to stop talking guff on interwebby forums , and get out and vote and you might find it makes a difference in elections then. :roll:  ::

As for your opinion on the "English Left", I don't care. Like them, hate them, support the Tories over them, what does it matter to me?

Well quite feckin obiously it does matter to you.



You flit one moment from announcing this mythical "british " remain majority who were somehow denied democracy over brexit , until i point out you can be a pro european remainer who is anti uk , and you start bleating about how you dont care about my opinion.



You might not like my opinion , but you want my vote , and wont get it , which is why you lost 5 british elections in a feckin row.

The English in general are politically divided by age and that means that sooner or later we become more left and a new Corbyn will come into power.

 :: jam tomorrow. Havent heard that one before. Is this along the lines of the silent english remainer majority that never ever materialised in five feckin elections ?

 Corbyn is like Sanders. A leader a generation ahead of his time. But a leader who will form a prodigy nonetheless.

..and the brothers and sisters  will flock around him and put him into power? ::

[B0ycey]

Good for you , but what do you mean "until brexit". The referendum wasnt held under FPTP , you had a straight vote and lost. We arent talking 20% of the vote getting 52 % brexit seats under some dodgy westminster voting system are we?

Sorry. I should have been clear. I meant the elections after the Brexit referendum.

That  was your problem right there , misjudging the english strength of feeling over the eu , and once you lost the referendum , you proceeded to try and turn a blind eye to it , and in the process , pissed people off more and more till the voters patience snapped in december.

I think it is you who is missing the "English" opinion actually. It is true that they have more pro Brexiteers than Scotland, but it largely divided on this issue even south of the wall. Hence why this forum has a split of opinion over Brexit for example. It isn't like you from Scotland is the only voice for the EU on here. The majority I suspect who support the EU on this very forum are English!



As for your opinion on the "English Left", I don't care. Like them, hate them, support the Tories over them, what does it matter to me? The English in general are politically divided by age and that means that sooner or later we become more left and a new Corbyn will come into power. Corbyn is like Sanders. A leader a generation ahead of his time. But a leader who will form a prodigy nonetheless.

[Thomas]

Pretty much.  ::



Except I'm not part of any group. Aren't most of us just independent, overopinionated thinkers airing our opinions on a forum? Or in the pub? Or on a park bench? Or at home, or at a friend's place, or work, or wherever?

Without a doubt mate, but the point is most folk have their political views and a party roughly in line with those views to vote for and at least have a small chance , however marginal , of getting into power.



Mines the SNP. How about you in England?

They called the ref for Cameron's ideological idiot reasons as you said, and drove people to support Leave with their horribly run Remain campaign and general nasty elitism.



Yep I blame them largely for that and make no apologies for doing so.

ok i understand what you are saying while i fundamentally disagree with it.



?That sounds suspicously like what i hear many of the english/brit left say about the snp , that somehow the snp voted themselves into power with out the approval of the people , and proceeded to brainwash the scottish public. I think its a cop out.



The anti european feeling in england was there long before cameron came to power. He merely tried to harness it for his own ends and it backfired spectacularly.



My point is the english left should have been out doing their best to persuade people of the merits of the eu , rather than screaming ukip/tory are bad.



By the time you got round to arguing the merits of european memebership , the damage was done in my opinion over many many years.

I accept that the Labour faction made things even worse, as did the LDs (don't go there... no one detests them more than me) but it WAS Tory-run and you KNOW that's true.

och come oan mate , nigel farage was one of the most prominent brexiter faces in europe , oftern critical of the tories , and often in the line of fire of english remainers.



Brexit was a coalition of many in english politics , and their supporters including many labour heartleands who wanted out of europe.



I cant see cromwell on this forum for example being brainwahsed into voting brexit by the tories.

So what do you prescribe for England? What do you thinkI should do, or support?



What would you do if you were me?

Its no down to me to tell you what to do in your own country mate . England is a totally different country to scotland , and much more to the right , and you have differing problems to what we have.



This isnt aimed at you , but what i dislike about englands left is that for a long time ,they have said scotlands sole reason to exist is somehow to hold the english lefts hands and i dont like it one little bit.



England can overcome its difficulties on its own , and you will. You need to reach out to your own people instead of asking me , and try and understand why they vote the way they do.

I disagree. You're 100% right to criticize English folk for being indifferent on Scotland. I think it does make a difference, we should also fight for your right to indy out of principle of what's fair & just.



If more English people spoke up and protested against the blatant cheat of your ref(as with Brexit), then it would've turned it into a fairer fight for you, and you are right to point that out regularly.

Thankyou for the sentiments , but outwith discussion on forums like this it doesnt make a blind bit of difference as you dont have a vote or say over scottish indy , and that at the end of the day is all that matters.



We are at 50% already , and tipping point has been reached , and you need to prepare yourselves for life after the uk .

[Borg Refinery]

"ok so apart from shouting " i hate the tories" on internet forums , as part of the english left , you have no real party to vote for , and wont get into power for the forseeable and as such , are merely part of some anti tory pressure group minority carping from the sidelines?



Sorry if im being rude , but thats how i see it.

Pretty much.  ::



Except I'm not part of any group. Aren't most of us just independent, overopinionated thinkers airing our opinions on a forum? Or in the pub? Or on a park bench? Or at home, or at a friend's place, or work, or wherever?



When Lab were in power, I was an overopinionated argumentative arsehole with an opinion too. My MP was that horrid woman Diane Abbott, although she's good to her constituents on local issues, she's really a very offensive person more generally. I was the same but with my 'bile' mostly aimed at them.



"Does it ever occur to you , its not the tories fault england wants out of the eu? "



They called the ref for Cameron's ideological idiot reasons as you said, and drove people to support Leave with their horribly run Remain campaign and general nasty elitism.



Yep I blame them largely for that and make no apologies for doing so.



I accept that the Labour faction made things even worse, as did the LDs (don't go there... no one detests them more than me) but it WAS Tory-run and you KNOW that's true.



"

You can hate boris johnson , or even dislike the tories ( streetwalker on this forum for example)and still be happy enough the tories are doing the damage for your political views. The prize is what matters , not idealistic delusional views on how you get there as we learned to our cost in 2014."



So what do you prescribe for England? What do you thinkI should do, or support?



What would you do if you were me?



"

However we can discusss politics in a wider sense on this forum and flag up the awfull mess the english left is making in your country. Its nothing personal , i cant vote in your country and you cant vote in mine so outwith the confines of debate on this forum it makes little real difference in the grand scheme of things."



I disagree. You're 100% right to criticize English folk for being indifferent on Scotland. I think it does make a difference, we should also fight for your right to indy out of principle of what's fair & just.



If more English people spoke up and protested against the blatant cheat of your ref(as with Brexit), then it would've turned it into a fairer fight for you, and you are right to point that out regularly.

[Thomas]

The silent Remain vote split Thomas. I don't understand why you find this so hard to understand. The leavers only had the Brexit Party with a May government. Hence the warped graphs. Had Labour been a leave party, we may have a Swinson government today because of FPTP.

I dont find it difficult to understand at all. Despite hearing about this silent remain  majority vote uk wide , it couldnt muster a majority in 2016 , when there was no possible argument about it splitting to let brexiters in , and for example couldnt muster a majority enough to gain victory in five differing elections starting from 2015.



You can cry "our vote was split" all day long , it means feck all .

[Thomas]

I have been against FPTP way before Brexit. Although until Brexit I hadn't understood just how bad it was and how it can distort facts.

Good for you , but what do you mean "until brexit". The referendum wasnt held under FPTP , you had a straight vote and lost. We arent talking 20% of the vote getting 52 % brexit seats under some dodgy westminster voting system are we?



That  was your problem right there , misjudging the english strength of feeling over the eu , and once you lost the referendum , you proceeded to try and turn a blind eye to it , and in the process , pissed people off more and more till the voters patience snapped in december.

Remain had the votes, they just had too many parties fighting for them

you didnt have my vote. Im a scottish remainer , i dont support britain remianing as clearly this is against the will of the majority of people , and im also against the yookay.



You problem is many of the remain vote like the snp , plaid cymru or sinn fein hate the yookay more than they hate the english tories.



I feckin hate british labour more than i hate conservatives in scotland , indeed , i actually admire the tories as an election winning machine.



Irrespective of all that , you had a clear chance to win in 2016 , with a simple yes/no , and you couldnt muster a majority , thats your problem. end of story.

[Thomas]

Ok, gonna have to condense the reply down here I'm afraid.



1. As I've implied (if not stated), I'm really not part of the British left (sorry for using that term, I tried to stick to England where possible, not suggesting any support of the 'yookay' ukion with this). I admittedly voted for Corbyn but ONLY as a lesser-evil due to the state of England; not really anything to do with Brexit.

Ok shall i call you part of the english left then? Sometimes its hard to know which terminology to use ,because many in your country seem to take offence at the term "english" for some strange feckin reason. My points all stand though equally to the british and english left.

Previous to that, Lab weren't even a consideration to me under Siliband and no I wasn't part of any other left groups, causes or parties particularly. Not post 2010/11 anyway. Wasn't really that big on Remain either - they cheated spectacularly during the referendum and had senior bankers at Goldman Sachs & top Tories telling us paysans that we HAVE to lie down and shut up.

ok so apart from shouting " i hate the tories" on internet forums , as part of the english left , you have no real party  to vote for , and wont get into power for the forseeable and as such  , are merely part of some anti tory pressure group minority carping from the sidelines?



Sorry if im being rude , but thats how i see it.

I like the EU but NOT the Tory-led Remain faction & campaign.

Unlucky then mate , your country voted by an overwhelming 54% to leave the eu , and the brexit vote got as high as 58% in england during the last european elections.



Does it ever occur to you , its not the tories fault england wants out of the eu? Or is this more of the english/british left delusion that like they said about the snp in scotland , the tories in england have taken control of peoples brains and turned them into mindless borgs incapable of thinking for themselves.? 8-)

Now, as the Europhiles said, if you hate Boris then start your own party, that's a valid point. I can't do that, I do not want to be a politician and I think that's fair enough. I'll support someone else who does.

You can start or support as many parties as you want in england. You dont have much chance of displacing the tories for the forseeable future in my opinion. The first hurdle you have to overcome is FPTP , and both main english parties wont tolerate that in any way shape or form.

That's true for Brexiters too. And I accept that.

I dont.



You can hate boris johnson , or even dislike the tories ( streetwalker on this forum for example)and still be happy enough the tories are doing the damage for your political views. The prize is what matters , not idealistic delusional views on how you get there as we learned to our cost in 2014.

2. IMHO Bojo's actions and Dom's are making the Tories position untenable, maybe I'mwrong who knows? It's an opinion, we will see of course.

I cant see whats changed. You are years away from a new G.E , and brexit will have long happened by then. Couple that with everyones attention being on coronavirus , and for the short to medium term , its not looking good for english lefties.

3. I've always supported Scot indy and knew about some of the cheating during your referendum. This points to the fact that 'yookay' democracy is a disgraceful joke.

I appreciate that for what its worth.



However we can discusss politics in a wider sense on this forum and flag up the awfull mess the english left is making in your country. Its nothing personal , i cant vote in your country and you cant vote in mine  so outwith the confines of debate on this forum it makes little real difference in the grand scheme of things.

I apologize if my earlier tone was a little aggressive, but it's not nice being blamed for things which you've consistently moaned about for years(!!!!)

Not at all mate , you are taking things too personal . No need to apologise at all . its merely an interwebby forum.

[B0ycey]

...and what happened to the silent remainer majority later in the year that apprently won the euro elections ? They got humped yet again.



I mean FFS talk about utter delusion.

The silent Remain vote split Thomas. I don't understand why you find this so hard to understand. The leavers only had the Brexit Party with a May government. Hence the warped graphs. Had Labour been a leave party, we may have a Swinson government today because of FPTP.