Cummings Breaks the Rules.

[B0ycey]

I dont rememebr many of the brit left complaining when blair won a large majority on only 35% of votes cast , from memory barely a fifth of the electorate in total.Thats your problem , in that many of the left have happily endorsed FPTP over decades , and now openly complain about it when it works against you.

I have been against FPTP way before Brexit. Although until Brexit I hadn't understood just how bad it was and how it can distort facts.



As for complaining about the result, I will just point to the fact that we didn't actually have to have the election to begin with. Swinson was over confident she could do it alone and was shown to be foolish and Corbyn jumped ship because he thought likewise. If they wanted an election they had to unite and that meant standing down in all marginal seats and to form a coalition. Splitting the vote meant only a Tory victory. I saw it. Johnson saw it. And even Farage saw it. But Corbyn and Swinson didn't. And that was the problem. Remain had the votes, they just had too many parties fighting for them.

[Thomas]

. Remain parties had the most votes. They had the most votes in the European election as well.

This is hilarious boycey  ::



Is that stat from the infamous dodgy bbc graphic dusted down and trotted out yet again from last year to give british remainers some warm glow inside ? :roll:

https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/proanti.jpg">



and the reality of the european elections.....

No, you haven't lost your mind. The graph really DOES try to exclude the Tories from a count of "pro-Brexit" parties, as if they were somehow neutral on the issue. Yes, that IS absolutely demented. Yes, the state broadcaster HAS done it anyway. God knows why.



Add the Tories in and the figures become 44% for Brexit, 40% against. And of course, in reality you need to add Labour too, because no matter what most of its supporters and MPs might want, the party campaigned unequivocally and unambiguously on a platform of leaving the EU (just a bit more gently), making the total 58%.



But what the reality-deniers insist is that the result must somehow lead to a general election and/or a second referendum, in which Remain would win. So let's pretend that that isn't cobblers (although it is) and examine how it might theoretically happen.

[/b]



...and what happened to the silent remainer majority later in the year that apprently won the euro elections ? They got humped yet again.



I mean FFS talk about utter delusion.

[Borg Refinery]

Btw, I don't expect the English left to get its stuff together. They will more than likely fall to pieces.



If they want to fight all the time, let them get on with it, I'm not going to try and stop them. You know how corrupt our politics is.



I just think the Tories will fall apart, elect a new leader and carry on most likely.



I'm not in a position to do anything about it at all, tbh I'm hanging on by a thread myself and really the Europhile suggestions to "stfu and make your own party then, like I did!"... are laughable. I'm not getting by very well as it is, like, don't be silly.



Btw I didn't accuse you of not wanting reconciliation. Or maybe it was a typo on either side, dunno.

[Borg Refinery]

Ok, gonna have to condense the reply down here I'm afraid.



1. As I've implied (if not stated), I'm really not part of the British left (sorry for using that term, I tried to stick to England where possible, not suggesting any support of the 'yookay' ukion with this). I admittedly voted for Corbyn but ONLY as a lesser-evil due to the state of England; not really anything to do with Brexit.



Previous to that, Lab weren't even a consideration to me under Siliband and no I wasn't part of any other left groups, causes or parties particularly. Not post 2010/11 anyway. Wasn't really that big on Remain either - they cheated spectacularly during the referendum and had senior bankers at Goldman Sachs & top Tories telling us paysans that we HAVE to lie down and shut up.



 I like the EU but NOT the Tory-led Remain faction & campaign.



Now, as the Europhiles said, if you hate Boris then start your own party, that's a valid point. I can't do that, I do not want to be a politician and I think that's fair enough. I'll support someone else who does.



That's true for Brexiters too. And I accept that.



2. IMHO Bojo's actions and Dom's are making the Tories position untenable, maybe I'mwrong who knows? It's an opinion, we will see of course.



3. I've always supported Scot indy and knew about some of the cheating during your referendum. This points to the fact that 'yookay' democracy is a disgraceful joke.



I apologize if my earlier tone was a little aggressive, but it's not nice being blamed for things which you've consistently moaned about for years(!!!!)

[Thomas]

FPTP makes every vote unequal!



marginal gains equal huge results!



It isn't really spin when it is a fact. Under a different electoral model would result in a different PM. Remain parties had the most votes. They had the most votes in the European election as well. And if we had proportional Representation Corbyn would be PM. But because not every vote is equal under FPTP you judge the winner by who gets the most votes. It is nothing short of Gerrymandering and warps your view on how you think the UK think on this issue. This isn't so BS to show face. The polls do suggest that the UK is marginally remain. And if you think that is spin then you don't actually understand what happening in the last election.

Sorry , i totally agree wit you over FPTP , but i didnt make the rules , and then complain about the result afterwards .



We have a differing voting system in place in scotland for the scottish parliament ,http://www.parliament.scot/gd/visitandlearn/Education/16285.aspx">http://www.parliament.scot/gd/visitandl ... 16285.aspx">http://www.parliament.scot/gd/visitandlearn/Education/16285.aspx as well as fptp for your parliaments elections , and the snp mange to win using both methods.



We in scotland cant change how your parliament is elected , you have to do that yourselves. The time to do it though is beforehand , not when you lose , as it only makes you look like sore losers.



I dont rememebr many of the brit left complaining when blair won a large majority on only 35% of votes cast , from memory barely a fifth of the electorate in total.Thats your problem , in that many of the left have happily endorsed FPTP over decades , and now openly complain about it when it works against you.

[B0ycey]

::



Come oan mate , you are feckin deluding yourself!



Look , we just had the last five years of british left delusion on how the next election was going to put brexiters in their place , and what was it ....five times in five years the british remainers got humped?



The patience of english and welsh voters finally snapped in december waiting on westminster to enact their 2016 referendum result , and everyone knows it.



The constituency of grenfell tower went to the tories , you know , the constiuency that labour went on and on about after the disaster on how bad the tories were for allowing the grenfell disaster to happen , and the voters there said feck you , we want brexit.



parts of wales and northern england went tory to get brexit done , and the only uk wide party with an unequivocal remain position went on to lose seats and have their dodgy leader dumped out on her arse in the process.



Spin away mate .

FPTP makes every vote unequal!



marginal gains equal huge results!



It isn't really spin when it is a fact. Under a different electoral model would result in a different PM. Remain parties had the most votes. They had the most votes in the European election as well. And if we had proportional Representation Corbyn would be PM. But because not every vote is equal under FPTP you judge the winner by who gets the most seats and not the most votes. It is nothing short of Gerrymandering and warps your view on how you believe the UK thinks on this issue in particular. This isn't some BS to show face. The polls do suggest that the UK is marginally remain regardless whether BJ is the PM or not. And if you think that is spin then you don't actually understand what happening in the last election.

[Thomas]

The perils of FPTP!



Remain won the last general election. Tories/Brexit got 46% of the vote. And the European elections showed what could have happened. What occured was the split vote. Whereas the leave parties united and the Remain parties took chunks out of each other and that cannot work due to how our democracy works. When Swinson was on the front foot she attacked Corbyn to get even more votes, who then showcased her austerity record taking away all her gains turning them into a losses in one week. Had they united to form a rainbow coalition, we might well have had a Corbyn PM because Remain had the most votes!

 ::



Come oan mate , you are feckin deluding yourself!



Look , we just had the last five years of british left delusion on how the next election was going to put brexiters in their place , and what was it ....five times in five years the british remainers got humped?



The patience of english and welsh voters finally snapped in december waiting on westminster to enact their 2016 referendum result , and everyone knows it.



The constituency of grenfell tower went to the tories , you know , the constiuency that labour went on and on about after the disaster on how bad the tories were for allowing the grenfell disaster to happen , and the voters there said feck you , we want brexit.



parts of wales and northern england went tory to get brexit done , and the only uk wide party with an unequivocal remain position went on to lose seats and have their dodgy leader dumped out on her arse in the process.



Spin away mate .

[Thomas]

What reconciliation?



You have angry lefties in the Corbyn camp who want to overthrow the high street banks (McDonnell wanted to nationalize them) and fight all the time, you have stonky Stammerites with their addled bonces talking rubbish, telling us how Starmer's the best thing since sliced bread when as you say he's Blair MK XXIV. You have Brexiters fighting each other and everyone else, you have other parties fighting each other and everyone else.



Good luck with your reconciliation stuff.



I would not vote for a new party that wants to get Brexit done, but I understand that Brexiters would want the opportunity to, and I'd wish them the best with it.



I'm saying they deserve to be listened to and have their wishes enacted, which won't happen if they vote for any of the other parties.



All I offer is the truth, if anyone has an issue with that then so be it. I have regularly been accused of being a Tory, a lefty, an English hater, a terrorist, a pacifist etc. It's water off a duck's back.  ::

I dont want any reconciliation? ::



Where do you get that from?



Im talking from a british left perspective. If you cant reconcile the different lefty factions in "british politics" , how do you manage to win enough seats to displace the pro breixt conservatives?

[Thomas]

Who is 'you'? I have stated clearly that I don't support Labour with Keir Starmer in charge, nor am I going to vote for them.

Im not in any way suggesting you are. Im talking in general terms of the british left , specifically in England.

They have to if they want Brexit done.

sorry not with you?



Brexit is half done at the minute , and we are now into the end of may going on to june , and nothing much happening on the brexit front. What that means at the minute  , unless something changes , brexiters dont have to do anything except run the clock down.



Its those opposed to brexit from where im sitting that have to do all the running.

We knew Corbyn was a secret Brexiter pretending to support remain,

He was , and as everyone knows , it was the likes of starmer and the other pro european blairites in labour who forced corbyn into the tragic comedy position of opposing the will of the english electorate , of whom 54% in 2016 voted brexit , including a large part of labour constituencies.



This comic childish political position corbyn was dragged kicking and scremain into accepting , starmers posistion might i add , was what gave labour their worst election result in a century and lost them their northern english heartlands.



Its breathtaking seeing labour as the enemy of the people in both england and scotland because of their illiterate ill thought out oppositon and refusal to listen to the people in both countries.

and Cameron, May, Boris and the Tories are predictable liars.

...and labour arent ?

. And Starmer can be counted on to be like Jo Swinson

Probably , which then takes us back to my point the british /english left have no one to vote for , which puts the tories in charge for the forseeable future.

and UKIP and BXP were incapable of anything.

Well dont agree with that. UKIP got the nreferendum they wanted and their side won. Achieveing your raison d`etre isnt being incapable of anything is it?

It's not my fault that that's the way British politics is configured, don't put that on me.

The british left , those specifically who voted labour past and present , have to take a share of that blame dont you think? Both tory and labour , and their supporters , want to retain the status quo of how "british politics" are configured , so why is it all the fault of the dastardly tories?



England  , and to a lesser degree wales , seem to be the only countires of the four yookay countries incappable of moving past labour tory tennis.



So if its not your fault , then whos fault is it? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is surely craziness?

There is no alternative if Brexiters want Brexit done, and that's that. It's not elitism, it's the truth.

I dont know is this is wishfull thinking or not , but we will see. The clock is ticking against you  , and i cant see you stopping brexit. brexiters meanwhile dont have to do much but keep their foot on the tories knecks.

Dom who masterminded the corrupt vote leave campaign?

He won didnt he?



Funny , no one on the british left mentions darling et al masterminding the corrupt vote remain campaign in 2014 in scotland , which destroyed labour and the british left as a force in scottish politics as a cost of remain , but somehow cummings is a clown for doing similar , with far better results?

This is whataboutery, anyone who criticises the Tories automatically supports Starmer is not a real argument.



You know it isn't.

Not at all , you know exactly what im saying. You can criticise the tories all day long , but unless the british left have something to offer the voters , then it wont make a blind bit of difference .

I offer the only sensible option: start a new party if you want Brexit done, the Tories WILL feck it up.



..Yes or no?

At the minute as it stands , its a complete no from me. You will only be vindicated in your opinion if by the end of the year complete brexit hasnt happened.



So basically you who hates the tories is relying on the tories doing your dirty work for you to vindicate your opinion. Even if that does happen , im not really sure how it helps you?



I would imagine it will destory the tories as a party , and some form of UKIP will rise from the ashes , and the english /british left will become even more marginalised as english/british nationalism becomes even stronger?

Well tell that to all the pro Tories criticising him too then, because they're saying worse things than I am!

like who?

What the feck? I regularly trashed nu lab's actions during their time in power. Wasn't really a fan of Blair, and definitely not a fan of Brown either.



So no, don't try to put any of that on me, it's just not going to fly.

Well you are part of what i would call the british left , and all those points stick in general terms . The british left ignored the people , and this is why you havent held any power over the last decade.



You provided the ammunition for other parties to take power , and while many ( not you)hark back to some mythical golden age of three election victories under blair , the cost of those electoral victories   upon reflection must really make the left think if it was worth it.

And IMHO Thornberry had no place in Corbyn's joke little clique, and is a large part of why he lost.

Well the fact thornberry and starmer were actually in the picture at all durng the corbyn days shows how divided labour were and are between the momentum types and the blairites. Labour dont quite get neither faction is palatable to the public.

[Borg Refinery]

Nah, Bojo won this election, England solidly voted for em'. You're both wrong.



There's no overcoming that fact.



 :: Thomas is going to now pillory me for 'disappearing' from the forum after Corbyn lost (well it's true, I did) and popping back up again, but it's true that England rejected Corbyn..



IMHO? He was a secret Brexiteer pretending to support remain - fact. So was McDonnell and many other old labourites.



The public hates inauthenticity more than they hate Bojo. I don't apologize for liking Corbyn, despite his unprincipled stand on Brexit, I'm more concerned about the state of the feckin country I live in than the EU BS, just as I pointed out when the ref was being run; "this is a distraction; a way of subduing voters and organizing them like feckin sheep".



Oh how true that turned out to be - Peter Hitchens pointed that out too.



Anyway, it's no use flogging a dead horse, Thomas is correct, England voted Brexit twice over, it wants Brexit.

[B0ycey]

There's never been any consistent evidence that a straightforward majority of people in the UK want to leave the EU. All we have is a snapshot from one day nearly 4 years ago, when a marginal majority of those who turned out to vote put their X next to 'leave'.

Indeed.  :thup:



All polls have it equal with perhaps the 52% wanting to remain now so talk that people wanted Brexit and nobody was listening to them doesn't fit the stats narrative. And what happened was why FPTP needs to change and something we should have all seen (especially  Swinson and Corbyn) before giving Johnson his great escape.



Nonetheless my prediction is that we are destined to return to the EU sooner or later so perhaps maintaining the EU narrative is still something Labour/Lib Dems shouldn't just ignore to win a few votes today as they should look into the future. Why? Because Brexit relies on promises that cannot be fulfilled, and when they aren't, the Europhile parties will rise and they will have the support of the younger generation as the Brexiteers begin to die off.

[Hyperduck Quack Quack]

The perils of FPTP!



Remain won the last general election. Tories/Brexit got 46% of the vote. And the European elections showed what could have happened. What occured was the split vote. Whereas the leave parties united and the Remain parties took chunks out of each other and that cannot work due to how our democracy works. When Swinson was on the front foot she attacked Corbyn to get even more votes, who then showcased her austerity record taking away all her gains turning them into a losses in one week. Had they united to form a rainbow coalition, we might well have had a Corbyn PM because Remain had the most votes!

There's never been any consistent evidence that a straightforward majority of people in the UK want to leave the EU. All we have is a snapshot from one day nearly 4 years ago, when a marginal majority of those who turned out to vote put their X next to 'leave'. Anyway we have a much bigger crisis than Brexit on our hands now and at this moment in time I'm not sure whether being in the EU or out of it makes much difference.  We'll have to wait until things return to normal or we evolve a new normal before we find out how bad Brexit is going to be for the UK.



Re. the European Parliament elections - the media was so obsessed with the bad-boy Brexit Party getting the biggest number of MEPs that nobody seemed to notice that parties that clearly supported 'remain' got the most votes.

[B0ycey]

The voters were pushed into voting for johnson as he appeared to be the only one listening to them , while the british left ignored them as they had done for at least the last decade if not more.

The perils of FPTP!



Remain won the last general election. Tories/Brexit got 46% of the vote. And the European elections showed what could have happened. What occured was the split vote. Whereas the leave parties united and the Remain parties took chunks out of each other and that cannot work due to how our democracy works. When Swinson was on the front foot she attacked Corbyn to get even more votes, who then showcased her austerity record taking away all her gains turning them into a losses in one week. Had they united to form a rainbow coalition, we might well have had a Corbyn PM because Remain had the most votes!

[Borg Refinery]

The voters were pushed into voting for johnson as he appeared to be the only one listening to them , while the british left ignored them as they had done for at least the last decade if not more.



Tell me though , if the british left are so out of touch on all the big issues with the voters , how do they get into power?



Blaming voters for voting tory and brexit isnt to my mind getting off to a good start in understanding and reconciliation is it?

What reconciliation?



You have angry lefties in the Corbyn camp who want to overthrow the high street banks (McDonnell wanted to nationalize them) and fight all the time, you have stonky Stammerites with their addled bonces talking rubbish, telling us how Starmer's the best thing since sliced bread when as you say he's Blair MK XXIV. You have Brexiters fighting each other and everyone else, you have other parties fighting each other and everyone else.



Good luck with your reconciliation stuff.



I would not vote for a new party that wants to get Brexit done, but I understand that Brexiters would want the opportunity to, and I'd wish them the best with it.



I'm saying they deserve to be listened to and have their wishes enacted, which won't happen if they vote for any of the other parties.



All I offer is the truth, if anyone has an issue with that then so be it. I have regularly been accused of being a Tory, a lefty, an English hater, a terrorist, a pacifist etc. It's water off a duck's back.  ::

[Hyperduck Quack Quack]

In a couple of months time Boris Johnson will have been Tory leader for 12 months, which means that in theory he could be challenged as leader. I doubt very much if that will happen in July but his government's mishandling of the covid-19 situation, the Cummings factor and even Brexit fall-out could create a burden of baggage big enough to build a wave of dissatisfaction within the party.



I've assumed that I'm not supposed to travel to see my relations although I've no reason to believe I'm infected with covid-19 or that they are.  We might be, of course, but as far was we know we're not.



So, if I did start to have symptoms, presumably it would then be OK to go and visit my relations because the government has said it was OK for Mr. Cummings to do that.