Elitism, clarse and all that...

[DeppityDawg]

But can you come up with any party policies of all the parties that are anti-white people?

I've already told you why I won't vote Labour anymore which answers that, but clearly you either didn't read it or didn't get it.



For the moment, there isn't a single political party I would willingly vote for....except maybe some kind of Trotskyist/Leninist party who I understand put the elitist intelligentsia up against the wall.... :roll:

[Javert]

The comment wasn't about "things", it was that the white working class aren't (don't feel) represented by any mainstream party anymore

But can you come up with any party policies of all the parties that are anti-white people?

[DeppityDawg]

That's exactly one of the main points I was trying to make.  If you are in an underclass of some kind, you must have those qualities in order to succeed.  If you are already privileged, you will most likely succeed even if you are lazy and not very clever.  That is the disparity.  I never claimed that those qualities were bad or wrong.  I am claiming that it's wrong that you need much higher levels of those qualities to succeed, depending on how low you are in the society pecking order.



To put it another way, it's possible that someone with your degree of motivation and determination, if you had been born into privilege, you would probably be a multi millionaire or famous for something important , whereas in reality you have succeeded in getting a much better life but not as far as you could have done if other people like me did not have an unfair advantage from the start.

Good job we've got you people like you to put us right then, otherwise we'd all still be getting stuffed up chimneys eh?

Can you give some specific examples of things that white English men are systematically denied, where ethnic minorities in general are given those things?

The comment wasn't about "things", it was that the white working class aren't (don't feel) represented by any mainstream party anymore

[papasmurf]

No such implication has been made in this thread

It has by the lie being repeated.



https://fullfact.org/economy/freedom-information-shows-no-evidence-thousands-never-worked-families/">https://fullfact.org/economy/freedom-in ... -families/">https://fullfact.org/economy/freedom-information-shows-no-evidence-thousands-never-worked-families/



Freedom of Information shows no evidence for thousands of 'never-worked' families

[DeppityDawg]

The implication was there was a vast army of generations of families who had never worked...

No such implication has been made in this thread



Which only goes to prove that a) you aren't reading what has been said and b) this is another hobby horse hijack



Now, f*ck off and paint your shed

[papasmurf]

Can you give some specific examples of things that white English men are systematically denied, where ethnic minorities in general are given those things?

Publicity.

[papasmurf]

Oh yeah. Sorry, I forgot about delirious old cranks like you.

It is you who have a problem. I was actually shocked that you made a comment about generations of families who have never worked because that was shot down in flames a long time ago. (Within hours of a Tory minister first stating it.)

The implication was there was a vast army of generations of families who had never worked.

Despite being asked numerous time for data to back it up they have never been able to do so, because there is none.

Intense research that I quoted had to search long and hard and only managed to find a tiny number of cases.

[Javert]

Yet virtually all the examples of those that get out of poverty that I know have these very qualities

That's exactly one of the main points I was trying to make.  If you are in an underclass of some kind, you must have those qualities in order to succeed.  If you are already privileged, you will most likely succeed even if you are lazy and not very clever.  That is the disparity.  I never claimed that those qualities were bad or wrong.  I am claiming that it's wrong that you need much higher levels of those qualities to succeed, depending on how low you are in the society pecking order.



To put it another way, it's possible that someone with your degree of motivation and determination, if you had been born into privilege, you would probably be a multi millionaire or famous for something important , whereas in reality you have succeeded in getting a much better life but not as far as you could have done if other people like me did not have an unfair advantage from the start.

That is probably the truest observation yet made in this thread - I could have explained my own feeling better had I made it myself

Can you give some specific examples of things that white English men are systematically denied, where ethnic minorities in general are given those things?

[DeppityDawg]

Yes they do....

Oh yeah. Sorry, I forgot about delirious old cranks like you.

[papasmurf]

I don't think anyone seriously believes its a big problem.

Yes they do, the government, Daily Heil readers, pub professors, think there is a vast army of layabouts and scroungers.

The Tories believed their own propaganda and though the one million mythological scroungers on Incapacity benefits could be quickly be found "fit for work." and the savings made would finance Universal Credit.

Just one problem the one million did not exist only in the minds of  the government, Daily Heil readers, and  pub professors.

[DeppityDawg]

Maybe, but it's a big feature of govt policy (nu lab & tory) to overemphasize the importance of that group, and make out that all the disabled etc are fiddling around and are undeserving and are in that group, which is a lie, it's easy feeder.

I don't think anyone seriously believes its a big problem. But that isn't the point. The point is that liberal lefties will always rush to "deny" things like this, as if their lives depended on it, an extension of what I've already said. The "working clarse" is some kind of poor mass of humanity that needs to be saved, so to acknowledge the existence of anyone who isn't a victim is not in the script. I can think of one family for example - the "father" (loose term) has some kind of disability. I think its called "being a lazy fat c**t" which he needs a stick for. Though he seems to be able to get around perfectly well without a stick when it suits him. He's the kind of bloke who wears trainers, but couldn't run 50 yards, yet he's perfectly capable of humping a tonne in bags of sand onto a van at B&Q. The oldest son is currently inside. To say the younger one has never worked might not be strictly true - whether he's worked AND paid any tax and national insurance might be the better question. The daughter has 2 kids to different fathers and doesn't work. That's not to say this is "common", but to one degree or another, there are plenty of others. Just mix and match from any of the above + a few others like "boyfriend is a drug dealer" or "got done for insurance fraud". The point isn't that "oh yeah, but its only 7 families like that in the whole of the UK, and the whole of christendom even". Those of us who grew up on large council estates know these people exist - the kind of people that Owen Jones says we've been turned into - its that they do exists that disproves the "we are all victims" bullshit. We aren't all victims.

There are others who put in all that effort, and have those qualities- but don't get rewarded.



Like you said, those qualities always existed but they were rewarded once upon a time, now it is much harder to get anywhere from step one. The 'millenial' generation have it a lot harder, it's still possible but it's not 100% down to all the qualities, luck also plays a big part in all of it.

Sure. The erosion of employment protections, zero hours contracts, employers who evade responsible practices, its all there. I'm not defending any of that by saying you can get out of it - sometimes, employers are just looking for decent employees too, and to deny that there aren't any piss poor, negligent or "couldn't give a shit" employees who just turn up and expect to be paid for being a waste of space isn't doing anyone any favours. We've recently had to get rid of someone for serious theft. Its not always the "employer" who is in the wrong, and they don't owe us a living just for turning up

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/britains-secret-terror-deals-truly-disturbing-bbc-panorama-allegations-of-collusion-must-be-fully-investigated-says-amnesty-international-31261593.html">https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.belfas ... 61593.html">https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/britains-secret-terror-deals-truly-disturbing-bbc-panorama-allegations-of-collusion-must-be-fully-investigated-says-amnesty-international-31261593.html



I think you said you were stationed in NI.



 I was told by someone that there was a certain 'order' kept among some units unofficially, and in one case, a soldier who did not follow that line had razor blades stuck in his soap; obviously not feeling it..when he had a hot shower... was that sort of thing something you noticed happening? Does it accord with your experience?



There's a lot of troops who tried their best to maintain peace between people on both sides; who would happily of killed them. There's a vide of some guy maintaining order in 69' telling off the local Unionist councillor who keeps insisting "its all ours, all of it". I'm not suggesting otherwise, but I have to be honest, our actions towards the Irish since the days of William of Orange have been a true disgrace.

Collusion? You'll not get many who were over there to talk about that. In the end, no matter what either side says, conflict is a shitty business. We weren't there to read anyone bedtime stories. Most of us were young – I was only 19 when they first sent me there – I doubt any of us would even have known who William of Orange was. We had a job to do and we did it.

Feel free to expand on it if you want.

Brexit I think became the tipping point for many working class voters - I voted remain but I accepted the democratic vote. But what then transpired in the name of "democracy" only cemented most working class peoples dismay with how they were being represented. For better or worse, I think the working class largely voted to leave, while the bulk of the parliamentary parties were remain, even the Tories being far from Brexit majority. It was UKIP that broke the conservatives. If they wanted to stay in power, they had to win that fight. The rest is history as they say.

[Borg Refinery]

I didn't put a figure on it. But they exist.

Maybe, but it's a big feature of govt policy (nu lab & tory) to overemphasize the importance of that group, and make out that all the disabled etc are fiddling around and are undeserving and are in that group, which is a lie, it's easy feeder..

Those are more the categories I meant by "won't help themselves", when perhaps the correct description was that they often do - its just that its often other peoples things they help themselves to ::



I also find people who prey on others who are as bad or worse off than them contemptible.

Who doesn't find them to be? But what drives them to do that, what turns their bullying instincts towards that instead..

Its true - Thomas found other ways out. So did I. Many people do. Much of that is down to the qualities of self reliance, self respect and hard work.

There are others who put in all that effort, and have those qualities- but don't get rewarded.

This was construed by Javert as being "Thatcherist". Perhaps it is to an extent, but those qualities have always existed in the working classes and I see no reason to be sniffy about them when they ought to be admired. They don't mean "feck everyone else" and that's for sure. I keep getting treated to recurring rounds of how bad inequality is by the person who seems to find such "Thatcherite" values slightly distasteful, as if I should be doffing my cap to him and telling him how grateful I am for his good council instead. Yet virtually all the examples of those that get out of poverty that I know have these very qualities

Like you said, those qualities always existed but they were rewarded once upon a time, now it is much harder to get anywhere from step one. The 'millenial' generation have it a lot harder, it's still possible but it's not 100% down to all the qualities, luck also plays a big part in all of it.

Even though I detested the man, I can understand why he appealed to the young - he was also untainted by Blair. But as you say, its easy to be popular when you lie (or at least, avoid the truth). For me, the reasons I could never accept or vote for that man were personal, and are to do with his stance and actions over Northern Ireland

I see.. that's probably a topic for another thread, but from what I've seen, mostly everyone has come round to acknowledging one main view on NI -



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/britains-secret-terror-deals-truly-disturbing-bbc-panorama-allegations-of-collusion-must-be-fully-investigated-says-amnesty-international-31261593.html">https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.belfas ... 61593.html">https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/britains-secret-terror-deals-truly-disturbing-bbc-panorama-allegations-of-collusion-must-be-fully-investigated-says-amnesty-international-31261593.html



I think you said you were stationed in NI.



 I was told by someone that there was a certain 'order' kept among some units unofficially, and in one case, a soldier who did not follow that line had razor blades stuck in his soap; obviously not feeling it..when he had a hot shower... was that sort of thing something you noticed happening? Does it accord with your experience?



There's a lot of troops who tried their best to maintain peace between people on both sides; who would happily of killed them. There's a vide of some guy maintaining order in 69' telling off the local Unionist councillor who keeps insisting "its all ours, all of it". I'm not suggesting otherwise, but I have to be honest, our actions towards the Irish since the days of William of Orange have been a true disgrace.



If you don't want to discuss it, that's fine too.

Then you need to take it in context - it was in response to the view that the "working class" are all singularly good, wronged people, like some kind of middle class project to be saved. The original comment was there are those who won't help themselves, and there very much are those out there who won't. To pretend otherwise is naïve and helps no one alter the perception of either the working class themselves, or of what opportunity should look like.

Ok fair enough..

That is probably the truest observation yet made in this thread - I could have explained my own feeling better had I made it myself

Feel free to expand on it if you want.

[Borchester]

I don't need and don't want the University educated middle classes preaching their self loathing brand of guilt-socialism to me anymore

That is good. I wish I had said it and probably will  :thup:

[DeppityDawg]

Supposedly 0.1% of the population.

I didn't put a figure on it. But they exist.

Ok, but most who get involved in that come from the roughest places, there's a lot of that in the very building I live in, over on my Mum's council estate that's even more prevalent.. I realize it's their choice but it's not always easy to get out of that if you're from a 'heavy' family.

Those are more the categories I meant by "won't help themselves", when perhaps the correct description was that they often do - its just that its often other peoples things they help themselves to ::



I also find people who prey on others who are as bad or worse off than them contemptible.

I don't want to get Thomas involved but look what he said - if it wasn't for some degree of luck, he'd have ended up like his brother. That's often the way things are as all three of us know, as you know - plenty join the army to get away from that sh*t too.

Its true - Thomas found other ways out. So did I. Many people do. Much of that is down to the qualities of self reliance, self respect and hard work. This was construed by Javert as being "Thatcherist". Perhaps it is to an extent, but those qualities have always existed in the working classes and I see no reason to be sniffy about them when they ought to be admired. They don't mean "feck everyone else" and that's for sure. I keep getting treated to recurring rounds of how bad inequality is by the person who seems to find such "Thatcherite" values slightly distasteful, as if I should be doffing my cap to him and telling him how grateful I am for his good council instead. Yet virtually all the examples of those that get out of poverty that I know have these very qualities

I got it wrong about Corbyn and he fell flat on his face, because he lied about supporting Remain when he was a Brexiter and people saw right through it - and the middle class Blairites internally sabotaged Labour's chances, by fighting with the middle-class socialists. Yes, Labour are very much middle-class and are divorced from people across the ex-'red wall'. It had occurred to me that maybe I don't know best given that they lost.  ::

Even though I detested the man, I can understand why he appealed to the young - he was also untainted by Blair. But as you say, its easy to be popular when you lie (or at least, avoid the truth). For me, the reasons I could never accept or vote for that man were personal, and are to do with his stance and actions over Northern Ireland

I understand where you're coming from, but I replied mainly to the part of your post I quoted. I'm refuting your claims about 'generations who havent worked'.

Then you need to take it in context - it was in response to the view that the "working class" are all singularly good, wronged people, like some kind of middle class project to be saved. The original comment was there are those who won't help themselves, and there very much are those out there who won't. To pretend otherwise is naïve and helps no one alter the perception of either the working class themselves, or of what opportunity should look like.

There is no one supporting the white working class anywhere in the country politically.

That is probably the truest observation yet made in this thread - I could have explained my own feeling better had I made it myself

[papasmurf]

There are those where whole families have not worked for generations.

That is a blatant Tory Government lie, I knew it was a lie the first time a Tory minister made the comment.



To find such families has been likened to:- In search of 'intergenerational cultures of worklessness': Hunting the Yeti and shooting zombies

Robert Macdonald, Tracy Shildrick, Andy FurlongFirst Published September 26, 2013