Elitism, clarse and all that...

[Borg Refinery]

There are those where whole families have not worked for generations.

Supposedly 0.1% of the population.



https://fullfact.org/economy/freedom-information-shows-no-evidence-thousands-never-worked-families/">https://fullfact.org/economy/freedom-in ... -families/">https://fullfact.org/economy/freedom-information-shows-no-evidence-thousands-never-worked-families/



The others who have 'never worked' seem to mostly be students and other under-25's dishonestly misrep'd by govt to fiddle the stats..



https://fullfact.org/economy/how-many-people-have-never-worked-their-lives/">https://fullfact.org/economy/how-many-p ... eir-lives/">https://fullfact.org/economy/how-many-people-have-never-worked-their-lives/

There are those that would rather get involved in crime, gangs, drugs prostitution, violence, extortion, anything rather than work. There are families where I grew up, known by name. The same exists up here in the areas where most people don't really want to go. Its easy to say, "ah, but this is a consequence of poverty, inequality blah, blah..." I don't accept that. I don't accept that "everyone is just a poor lost soul" - inequality exists, but that does not mean ALL methods of circumventing it are acceptable, or that those people would be any better persons were the inequality not there. You know fine well the kind of people I mean. They are often local celebrities, "Robin Hood" characters. Except there's often very little good about them.

Ok, but most who get involved in that come from the roughest places, there's a lot of that in the very building I live in, over on my Mum's council estate that's even more prevalent.. I realize it's their choice but it's not always easy to get out of that if you're from a 'heavy' family.



I don't want to get Thomas involved but look what he said - if it wasn't for some degree of luck, he'd have ended up like his brother. That's often the way things are as all three of us know, as you know - plenty join the army to get away from that shit too.

I'll have to apologise if I haven't made my position clear, Cpt Dynamic. Because I can't have done if you are quoting things at me that I don't disagree with, or don't necessarily disagree with - where have I championed Universal benefit? Or that it doesn't encourage people to work?



Who knew, eh?

Fair enough.

I can live with a Thomas or Borchester comparison, but not Wiggles. The poster is a complete bell end, and all three of us have told him so. I simply ignore the idiot (when he isn't banned)

Ok..fair point  :: Please accept my apologies for that..  :hattip

As for the rest of that, I've no idea what you are talking about. You're quoting stuff at me, like how bad poverty is, inequality is, under achievement, poor education, as if I don't know about these things. I went through them ALL for feck sake - the thing about education is even more relevant to what I said - young, white, working class males are probably the most unrepresented class of people in the country now (notice the difference between unrepresented and unprivileged) They underachieve hugely now, and your making the point as if I'm unaware of this?



My argument isn't about that these inequalities exist - its with the middle classes represented by people like Javert, lecturing me, changing my real concerns to "racism", scoffing at values he doesn't understand, and telling me what is in my OWN interest. As if he knew? I don't care what Javert votes for, or you. And I wouldn't dare assume to tell either of you what was in your own interests. Get on with it - vote for whomsoever you like. But please, just don't assume you (or whatever passes for what was once the Labour Party) speaks for me. I am well aware of what inequality, poverty and lack of opportunity feels like, thanks very much. I don't need and don't want the University educated middle classes preaching their self loathing brand of guilt-socialism to me anymore

I'm not suggesting you vote or don't vote for anyone Deppity, you should always make your own mind up on that.



I got it wrong about Corbyn and he fell flat on his face, because he lied about supporting Remain when he was a Brexiter and people saw right through it - and the middle class Blairites internally sabotaged Labour's chances, by fighting with the middle-class socialists. Yes, Labour are very much middle-class and are divorced from people across the ex-'red wall'. It had occurred to me that maybe I don't know best given that they lost.  ::



I understand where you're coming from, but I replied mainly to the part of your post I quoted. I'm refuting your claims about 'generations who havent worked'.



IMHO all the other parties are remresentative only of upper-class and upper-middle-class interests, whereas labour appear to be middle-class.



There is no one supporting the white working class anywhere in the country politically.

[DeppityDawg]

Who are these people then?

There are those where whole families have not worked for generations. There are those that would rather get involved in crime, gangs, drugs prostitution, violence, extortion, anything rather than work. There are families where I grew up, known by name. The same exists up here in the areas where most people don't really want to go. Its easy to say, "ah, but this is a consequence of poverty, inequality blah, blah..." I don't accept that. I don't accept that "everyone is just a poor lost soul" - inequality exists, but that does not mean ALL methods of circumventing it are acceptable, or that those people would be any better persons were the inequality not there. You know fine well the kind of people I mean. They are often local celebrities, "Robin Hood" characters. Except there's often very little good about them.

You realize that multiple reports by the lords, commons, other third sector orgs have found that you're actually worse-off working than you are claiming on the new 'universal credit system'.

I'll have to apologise if I haven't made my position clear, Cpt Dynamic. Because I can't have done if you are quoting things at me that I don't disagree with, or don't necessarily disagree with - where have I championed Universal benefit? Or that it doesn't encourage people to work?



Who knew, eh?

You, Borchester, Thomas and others (wiggles would if he was here) may well snarl and go "you're a sockpuppet for smurf, stfu, what do you know, you're probably a fake profile & a scrounging feckless cont yourself in france from the way you talk, keep schtum and be thankful", etc but that's an evasion of my post, so I'll assume there's no good answer (and best wishes to you too).

I can live with a Thomas or Borchester comparison, but not Wiggles. The poster is a complete bell end, and all three of us have told him so. I simply ignore the idiot (when he isn't banned)



As for the rest of that, I've no idea what you are talking about. You're quoting stuff at me, like how bad poverty is, inequality is, under achievement, poor education, as if I don't know about these things. I went through them ALL for feck sake - the thing about education is even more relevant to what I said - young, white, working class males are probably the most unrepresented class of people in the country now (notice the difference between unrepresented and unprivileged) They underachieve hugely now, and your making the point as if I'm unaware of this?



My argument isn't about that these inequalities exist - its with the middle classes represented by people like Javert, lecturing me, changing my real concerns to "racism", scoffing at values he doesn't understand, and telling me what is in my OWN interest. As if he knew? I don't care what Javert votes for, or you. And I wouldn't dare assume to tell either of you what was in your own interests. Get on with it - vote for whomsoever you like. But please, just don't assume you (or whatever passes for what was once the Labour Party) speaks for me. I am well aware of what inequality, poverty and lack of opportunity feels like, thanks very much. I don't need and don't want the University educated middle classes preaching their self loathing brand of guilt-socialism to me anymore

[papasmurf]

Oh I forgot about this too re ethnic minorities;



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-46927417">https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co ... k-46927417">https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-46927417





Now I'm sure mostly everyone (incl papa) will attack this one..



Come on then you slags.  8-)

What is there too attack, I hope they did no get paid much to come back with a result that has been known for decades.

[Borg Refinery]

Oh I forgot about this too re ethnic minorities;



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-46927417">https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co ... k-46927417">https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-46927417

Research carried out by academics based at Oxford University suggests her concerns may be right.



British citizens from ethnic minority backgrounds have to send, on average, 60% more job applications to get a positive response from employers compared to their white counterparts, according to researchers at Nuffield College's Centre for Social Investigation (CSI).



They sent around 3,200 fake job applications for both manual and non-manual jobs - including chefs, shop assistants, accountants and software engineers - in response to adverts on a popular recruitment site between November 2016 and December 2017.



All of the fictitious candidates were British citizens, or had moved to the UK by the age of six, and had identical CVs, covering letters and years of experience.



Adam or Mohamed - who gets the job?

What is name-blind recruitment?

Ethnicity pay gap for academics revealed

The only thing that they changed was the applicant's name, which they based on their ethnic background.



While 24% of white British applicants received a call back from UK employers, only 15% of ethnic minority applicants did.



Compared to White British applicants, people of:



Pakistani heritage had to make 70% more applications

Nigerian and South Asian heritage 80% more applications

Middle Eastern and north African heritage 90% more applications

'A burning injustice'

Dr Valentina Di Stasio, co-author and an assistant professor at Utrecht University in the Netherlands, says the "shocking" results show that the level of discrimination in the job market has not changed since the late 1960s.

Now I'm sure mostly everyone (incl papa) will attack this one..



Come on then you slags.  8-)

[papasmurf]

Well if you can live on under £85 a week, then props to you.

The problem is Universal Credit has cut the income of over 2 million people who are in work.

[Borg Refinery]

Well if you can live on under £85 a week, then props to you.

[papasmurf]

You are always better off working because then you have some control over your life. You may not make as much money, but that is not the main point.

Only if the job pays enough, which far too many don't.

[Borchester]

You realize that multiple reports by the lords, commons, other third sector orgs have found that you're actually worse-off working than you are claiming on the new 'universal credit system'.

Which just goes to show that the multiple reports by the lords, commons, other third sector orgs are fit only to supplement the loo paper shortage.



You are always better off working because then you have some control over your life. You may not make as much money, but that is not the main point.

[Javert]

I wouldn't worry about it.  Deppity has won the argument by telling us that he is right and we don't listen to him.    :fpigs:

[Borg Refinery]

There are also those who no amount of opportunities and encouragement will help either, because some choose that lifestyle.

Who are these people then?



You realize that multiple reports by the lords, commons, other third sector orgs have found that you're actually worse-off working than you are claiming on the new 'universal credit system'.



"With two-parent families the disincentive story is the same. In a family with two young children, if one partner works there is no incentive in universal credit for the second partner to take a job. Don't glaze over, look at these figures: if one parent is working full-time on the minimum wage taking home £346 a week, when the other gets a full-time job, their income generally only improves by £29 for her five days at work. (And she earns less full-time than if she worked three days)."



https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jul/12/universal-credit-less-pay">https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... t-less-pay">https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jul/12/universal-credit-less-pay



I could try and find the reports for you but I'm not sure if you will instantly dismiss them, as you accuse Jav of doing.



Then there's the question of the education system.



A charity that tackled underachieving ethnic minority students' prospects moved towards helping disadvantaged white kids, which is good..



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7855125/amp/Charity-transform-prospects-white-working-class-boys.html">https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -boys.html">https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7855125/amp/Charity-transform-prospects-white-working-class-boys.html



'Poor white boys show no sign of catching up with their peers and have become the underdogs of the school system.'

https://www.aedaily.net/en/posts/poor-white-boys-are-underdogs-of-the-education-system/">https://www.aedaily.net/en/posts/poor-w ... on-system/">https://www.aedaily.net/en/posts/poor-white-boys-are-underdogs-of-the-education-system/



The Times:

The difference in attainment between richer pupils and their disadvantaged classmates has closed slightly since 2011, a cause for much celebration in government. However, when results are broken down by ethnicity, it appears that the improved results among poorer pupils are largely down to the achievement of non-white children. This is exacerbated when gender is taken into the equation.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/education-47227157">https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co ... n-47227157">https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/education-47227157



White boys from poorer homes are the least likely of any category, other than Roma or gypsy, to go to university

....

Half of universities have fewer than 5% poor white students

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/education-47227157">https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co ... n-47227157">https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/education-47227157



https://ibb.co/nLZPds6">

https://imgbb.com/">



And a report from the CIPD pub'd in the Telegraph said that a survey of 1000 biz' found they' preferred hiring EU migrants over Brits, due to education & skills shortages.



..which as you can see, are persisting as I posted earlier, so leading to a vicious circle where real opportunities are simply MIA.



And if you won't believe me, take it from The Sun -



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/news/5626385/wages-jobs-homes-uk-millenials-screwed/amp/">https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thesun ... rewed/amp/">https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/news/5626385/wages-jobs-homes-uk-millenials-screwed/amp/



The opportunities that previous generations had, are largely MIA -as most people I've spoken to acknowledge, these days.



You, Borchester, Thomas and others (wiggles would if he was here) may well snarl and go "you're a sockpuppet for smurf, stfu, what do you know, you're probably a fake profile & a scrounging feckless cont yourself in france from the way you talk, keep schtum and be thankful", etc but that's an evasion of my post, so I'll assume there's no good answer (and best wishes to you too).

[DeppityDawg]

I'm not saying I believe that's a valid argument, but it's an interesting point when you assume that When you dismiss any measures designed to help ethnic communities as pandering to small minorities, you are talking about very large number of people.

No, of course you aren't, because that ISN'T what was said. I never "dismissed" measures to help minorities in any way. But it's irrelevant now anyway.



I'm sick of this. People like you DON'T listen to what is being said. Instead, you reinterpret what others say to reinforce and perpetuate your own prejudices. You either ignore what is being said or you are utterly incapable of understanding it because you are so convinced of your own superiority. Every time you do this (and it's not just me that has noticed you doing it, multiple posters have pointed it out) you show yourself to be the exact privileged and condescending elitist that I've told you I detest. My opinion is worthless to people like you, you simply ignore it and reframe it to confirm your own superior viewpoint. You are an archetypal middle class elitist who gets upset by those words, but confirms how true they are every time he puts his finger to the keypad.



I've had enough of this. Talk to yourself about it.

[Javert]

That's all your opinion Javert, and I'm sorry, but there is nothing new there. Its the same "I know better" recipe warmed over again, with some kind of half baked reference to "disenfranchising 17 million people", by which I've no idea what you are on about. But the most spectacularly ironic thing is you talk loftily about the Tories trying to "destroy parliamentary democracy", when the overwhelmingly liberal left Remain parties spent 3 years doing everything in their power to suffocate democracy. That is an absolutely shameless bit of revisionism Javert, and this conversation is rapidly running out of air too.

The reference is to the UK parliament deciding today that electronic voting, which worked perfectly well during this crisis so far, is no longer allowed, and therefore any MP who is shielded cannot vote.  This effectively disenfranchises about 17 million people.



The government claims that this is because the video conference and electronic participation didn't work and didn't provide good scrutiny.  I watched some of the sessions, and it was painfully opposite that the truth is the absolute opposite - without baying mobs of hooligans (on both sides), there was nowhere to hide from the actual questions being asked.



This is actually in may ways a bigger scandal than the Cummings thing as it's a first move towards despotism, and there is no plausible reason for it.



Not to mention, it also makes the UK look ridiculous.  Just at the time when everyone else in the country and the rest of the world is finding innovative technological ways to stay productive, the UK parliament decides to change an efficient electronic voting system, back into a system of queuing up along the whole building and preventing half the MPs from participating whilst taking 10 times as long.



You might think that's progress - I don't.



I look forward to seeing the foundations of the northern factories dug once more, the very day after the no deal Brexit is finalised.



 ::



I would also like to query your arguments about the government and people 'wasting time on minorities"



I'm not sure about this because it's not easy to find exact number, but, it seems like there are about 8.1 million ethnic minority people in the UK.



I was wondering how this compared to the number of people from the North of England who were put out of work by the 1980s changes.  It's difficult to put a number on it, but if you look at, for example, the number of miners who lost their jobs in the 1980s, it's more in the tens of thousands than millions.



Even looking at the evolution of unemployment numbers in total, and even if you assume that all of that was in the North, and all of those people were in 4 person families, it's quite hard to get to saying that more than 8.1 million people were having their lives "ruined" in the 1980s.



As such, you could flip it and say, why would the government focus on "minority northern communities" when they have 8.1 million ethnic minority people to help (i.e. votes to court)?



I'm not saying I believe that's a valid argument, but it's an interesting point when you assume that When you dismiss any measures designed to help ethnic communities as pandering to small minorities, you are talking about very large number of people.

[DeppityDawg]

I never claimed I was not privileged compared to many people by my upbringing.  There's no doubt that this is the case and I admit it, although if you had read a previous post instead of putting TLDR you would know that my grandparents and before were working class and my parents had a working class childhood.



The discussion was because in one of the prior posts, you talked about it being the responsibility of each individual in society to improve their lives, and I am making the point that it's a hundred times more difficult to improve your life if you're starting from the gutter, and that's not fair on those people.  It's a lot easier to improve your life if you have a head start like I did.



I have no problem admitting that if I had been born to alcoholic drug addict parents in a slum, I would most likely be dead or a drug addict by now, because I don't believe I am strong enough to make it out of that.  One way to look at it is that I was lucky and had an unfair head start.  Another way to look at it might be that what I had was normal and how things should be for all children.

Good for you, Javert. And yes, I did say everyone has a responsibility to themselves, provided the opportunities are there. Its part of governments responsibility to provide education and opportunities, or no amount of will and self discipline will get you out of there. There are also those who no amount of opportunities and encouragement will help either, because some choose that lifestyle.

You appear to agree with that, but your new solution is to vote back in the same party that closed down all those industries you talk about in the 1980s, and many of them are proud of it and idolise the person that did it.  



And they are now, even this very day as I post this, trying to destroy parliamentary democracy in this country (hopefully temporary but who knows) by disenfranchising 17 million people (again ironic I know) whose MPs are not like Tarzan, and desperately trying to re-introduce the old "traditional" HOC where any valid arguments are drowned out by the baying of blustering hooligans.  



I don't doubt you have a point in the comments about Labour, but there were other options than voting Conservative, the very party that caused all the problems in the first place and did it completely on purpose.



You will find out shortly, in fact have already started to find out, how much those guys care about rebuilding the Northern Industries.



Also the Conservatives have been in power for 10 years - how come they didn't do anything about it in all that time?

That's all your opinion Javert, and I'm sorry, but there is nothing new there. Its the same "I know better" recipe warmed over again, with some kind of half baked reference to "disenfranchising 17 million people", by which I've no idea what you are on about. But the most spectacularly ironic thing is you talk loftily about the Tories trying to "destroy parliamentary democracy", when the overwhelmingly liberal left Remain parties spent 3 years doing everything in their power to suffocate democracy. That is an absolutely shameless bit of revisionism Javert, and this conversation is rapidly running out of air too.

[Borg Refinery]

I never claimed I was not privileged compared to many people by my upbringing.  There's no doubt that this is the case and I admit it, although if you had read a previous post instead of putting TLDR you would know that my grandparents and before were working class and my parents had a working class childhood.



The discussion was because in one of the prior posts, you talked about it being the responsibility of each individual in society to improve their lives, and I am making the point that it's a hundred times more difficult to improve your life if you're starting from the gutter, and that's not fair on those people.  It's a lot easier to improve your life if you have a head start like I did.



I have no problem admitting that if I had been born to alcoholic drug addict parents in a slum, I would most likely be dead or a drug addict by now, because I don't believe I am strong enough to make it out of that.  One way to look at it is that I was lucky and had an unfair head start.  Another way to look at it might be that what I had was normal and how things should be for all children.



You appear to agree with that, but your new solution is to vote back in the same party that closed down all those industries you talk about in the 1980s, and many of them are proud of it and idolise the person that did it.  



And they are now, even this very day as I post this, trying to destroy parliamentary democracy in this country (hopefully temporary but who knows) by disenfranchising 17 million people (again ironic I know) whose MPs are not like Tarzan, and desperately trying to re-introduce the old "traditional" HOC where any valid arguments are drowned out by the baying of blustering hooligans.  



I don't doubt you have a point in the comments about Labour, but there were other options than voting Conservative, the very party that caused all the problems in the first place and did it completely on purpose.



You will find out shortly, in fact have already started to find out, how much those guys care about rebuilding the Northern Industries.



Also the Conservatives have been in power for 10 years - how come they didn't do anything about it in all that time?

 :hattip

[Javert]

I've voted Labour for most of my life - until Tony Blair anyway. My family always voted Labour, because that's what you did. My wife's family (who are all from the North East), are the same. Working class, her father worked in the steel industry all his life. Many of the seats up here have been red forever. Some have NEVER been conservative, yet for the first time ever, so many fell last year. You know why? Because in all the years they've had these seats, even when in power, NOTHING changed. The party became more and more middle class, more and more London centric, more and more interested in minority issues, and less and less interested in "safe" seats they could plant a donkey in and people would STILL vote for it. Not anymore.



Don't pretend that I'm some kind of idiot who "votes against his own interests" Javert, when so, so many abandoned Labour at the last election.







I never said white men are discriminated against, I said I'm sick of being held responsible for everything that wrong with the world. People like Jess Phillips can't open their mouths without it being about "toxic masculinity" or something specific to how men "damage" women. She's a one trick pony, as so many of them are. How can I trust someone who constantly spouts feminist b*llshit to ever represent men? And then, you can't criticise people like Dianne Abbott because you think she is a fool, even if she is, without it being turned into "racism". How MANY times has she played the "racism" card when she f*cked up badly on TV or radio? The same thing applied to any criticism of the Harry/Megan saga, where this becomes "racism" and its impossible to level any critical comment because of her skin colour, rather than her behaviour. If you don't get that this tearing the arse out of everything is pathetic and actually turns people AGAINST political correctness by its very nature, then fine, but that is the real reason why many people are against privileged middle class liberals deciding the terms of the debate. Because that is what is happening over and again. The party have allowed individuals with agendas to put them ahead of the interests of us ALL







And YOU are telling me this? Why don't you tell us a bit about yourself, Javert? Where were you bought up? What kind of school did you go to? What kind of education did you have? What were your parents like? Did you go to University and get a degree? What kind of work do you do?



Then tell me what on earth makes you think you can lecture me about disadvantage?







They didn't Javert. If you go back to that post, it doesn't mention you holding any such views, it was a comment about the Liberal left mindset, for instance in what passes as representation on some of these ex Labour parliamentary seats - in all the years they held these seats, or were in government, for all they bemoaned the damage Thatcher did up here, they never found a way to provide the new investment needed to drag the North East and its depressed towns and pit villages out of the deprivation its been in since the coal, steel and ports were lost. There is only so long you can go on blaming Thatcher before people start to see through it. We need investment and jobs, not Jess Phillips moaning about how sh*t men are and Dianne Abbott adding 2+2 and getting 193



Still, at least its ironic if not even funny you asking "where did I post that"

I never claimed I was not privileged compared to many people by my upbringing.  There's no doubt that this is the case and I admit it, although if you had read a previous post instead of putting TLDR you would know that my grandparents and before were working class and my parents had a working class childhood.



The discussion was because in one of the prior posts, you talked about it being the responsibility of each individual in society to improve their lives, and I am making the point that it's a hundred times more difficult to improve your life if you're starting from the gutter, and that's not fair on those people.  It's a lot easier to improve your life if you have a head start like I did.



I have no problem admitting that if I had been born to alcoholic drug addict parents in a slum, I would most likely be dead or a drug addict by now, because I don't believe I am strong enough to make it out of that.  One way to look at it is that I was lucky and had an unfair head start.  Another way to look at it might be that what I had was normal and how things should be for all children.



You appear to agree with that, but your new solution is to vote back in the same party that closed down all those industries you talk about in the 1980s, and many of them are proud of it and idolise the person that did it.  



And they are now, even this very day as I post this, trying to destroy parliamentary democracy in this country (hopefully temporary but who knows) by disenfranchising 17 million people (again ironic I know) whose MPs are not like Tarzan, and desperately trying to re-introduce the old "traditional" HOC where any valid arguments are drowned out by the baying of blustering hooligans.  



I don't doubt you have a point in the comments about Labour, but there were other options than voting Conservative, the very party that caused all the problems in the first place and did it completely on purpose.



You will find out shortly, in fact have already started to find out, how much those guys care about rebuilding the Northern Industries.



Also the Conservatives have been in power for 10 years - how come they didn't do anything about it in all that time?