Elitism, clarse and all that...

[B0ycey]

Kropotkin was an Anarchist who wanted a completely different thing to Communists.

Do you know the difference between Communism and Anarchism? The route of achievement.



Kropotkin may have been an anarchists, but his reasoning explains Communism.

[Borg Refinery]

You need to read "Mutual Aid" by Kropotkin to understand why Communism would be accepted and is in essence human instinct.

Kropotkin was an Anarchist who wanted a completely different thing to Communists.

[B0ycey]

The weakness of communism is that it requires everyone to accept it and to play by the rules. But there will always be those who are against the system, whatever the system is. There will also always be those who play the system from within to their own advantage.  These things are true with capitalism too, but they have less effect.

You need to read "Mutual Aid" by Kropotkin to understand why Communism would be accepted and is in essence human instinct. That is humans are pack animals, who instinctively who want to look after their best interests and that is to work together and would live happily under a Communist economic model if that is what Dialectical Materialism resulted in. Without the concept of "money" we would already work in unison without the desire for profit as that is what our primate cousins are doing FYI. But what Capitalism does is blur our instinct as our instinct is to benefit ourselves and that today is to accumulate wealth and as such alters our behavior to something more selfish.



Also I am no different to anyone else which is why I accept DD post as basically what everyone no doubt believes. For example, not so long ago I sold my house and bought one outright in a much cheaper area within the UK. Today I am a landowner, a champaign socialist if you will (Social Democrats in reality), playing the Capitalist game for their own advantage. Does that cloud my judgement? Well no. I studied economics, and Marx taught me how to play the system for my own benefit and that was landownership. But do I agree with the system? No. I would prefer to have "each according to his need..." and all that. But it isn't what we know today and only when everyone understands their class distinction will anyone fight the system and that may not even happen in our lifetime. So as we exploit those of the third world despite those exploiting us, there is no appetite to destroy the system here because of that.



But the question still remains is the status quo possible to maintained forever? And the answer is definitely No. And that is why change is always going to happen even if we think it is never going to be possible. For example if everyone is made unemployed and production stops, would you, me and DD just accpet that to maintain an elite system that we benefit from initially, or would we storm parliament and expect change. The answer is our behavior evolves to what benefits ourselves and as such elitism only remains while the proletariat struggle to understand why they are being exploited.

[T00ts]

Boycey I understand what you are saying. But even if I'd known much about Marx when I was 15, I doubt it would have made much difference to how things turned out. Talking about class distinctions, and specifically for me anyway, the poverty and lack of opportunity I remember, my over riding desire was that I wanted out of it – it never even occurred to me that I could change it even if I'd wanted to.



I'm close to 60 now. I'm relatively well off. Not wealthy by any means, but I'm ok. I don't rent anything. My mortgage will be paid off in about 18 months. Its not a huge house, but its mine. I'll have (if I survive corona-fecking-virus  :roll: ) a reasonable retirement – but god know, I've worked for it. I've made sacrifices for it. Yet I'm lucky in the respect that I've got a good network of friends and contacts, that I've never really been out of work – that's not true for everyone I realise. But those are contacts and friends I've earned the respect of (and theirs for me) the hard way



I don't buy the communism stuff I'm afraid. You see, I wanted to earn money. To get married. To have kids. To own my own home. To be respectable I suppose. Because ultimately I guess I wanted to have what my family never really had when I was a kid. I didn't want my kids to grow up like that. Does that mean that a little "elitism" exists in us all? I think it probably does. I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing. We live in (or should live in I believe) a meritocracy, not just one where everyone is "equal" because it's a liberal article of faith. Human beings are hierarchal. Some lead. Some follow. Some are good at some things, some good at others. I think the concept of bland "equality" sounds awful. Equality of opportunity yes. Of outcome, no.



What gets my back up about liberal elitism is their sense of moral superiority. It's the way that a state owned broadcaster like the BBC pretends to be impartial when its anything but. It's the sniffy attitude to the English flag, the pretence that liberalism represents a set of universal values, and to disagree with one of them (like mass immigration for instance) results in accusations like "you don't like foreigners – eg, you're a racist". Its the shambles that democracy became over Brexit.



I think the current state of the working class was described best by Owen Jones "demonisation"  – ironically I detest the scabby little **** but its close to the truth. The "working class" stopped working and were recreated as chavs and scroungers by one side, and hapless uneducated "victims" on the other. We lost our self respect. The liberal middle class regard the working class (aka the Poor, the disadvantaged, the oppressed etc) as a life purpose project – "oh, I am concerned to help the poor", as if they were dumb animals that need to be "helped" by their intellectual superiors. In the end, constructive help is always good, but I'm a great believer in that there is no one who can help you more than yourself. It's having the opportunities to help yourself out of what holds you back that counts. Whilst its true there weren't and still aren't the same opportunities for you if you come from a disadvantaged background, there are still those who rise from it. And there are plenty of those who disadvantage themselves too.



That's why communism will never work in my opinion – because we aren't equal, and we never will be. And that's why "elitism" exists I guess.

 :hattip  :hattip  :clp  :clp

[papasmurf]

No it isn't,the politburo members or whatever the equivalent are fully paid up members of the DominicCummings appreciation society.

All two men and a dog?

[cromwell]

The weakness of communism is that it requires everyone to accept it and to play by the rules.

No it isn't,the politburo members or whatever the equivalent are fully paid up members of the DominicCummings appreciation society.

[papasmurf]

 after all the Army isn't a commercial company and nobody's saying state-owned military services are a communist idea!

Quite.  "We are here to preserve democracy not to practice it."

[Hyperduck Quack Quack]

The weakness of communism is that it requires everyone to accept it and to play by the rules. But there will always be those who are against the system, whatever the system is. There will also always be those who play the system from within to their own advantage.  These things are true with capitalism too, but they have less effect.



A fairer society doesn't mean everyone has to be equal, just more equal than they are now. I don't see more state ownership of key service industries as 'communism', after all the Army isn't a commercial company and nobody's saying state-owned military services are a communist idea!

[cromwell]

Boycey I understand what you are saying. But even if I'd known much about Marx when I was 15, I doubt it would have made much difference to how things turned out. Talking about class distinctions, and specifically for me anyway, the poverty and lack of opportunity I remember, my over riding desire was that I wanted out of it – it never even occurred to me that I could change it even if I'd wanted to.



I'm close to 60 now. I'm relatively well off. Not wealthy by any means, but I'm ok. I don't rent anything. My mortgage will be paid off in about 18 months. Its not a huge house, but its mine. I'll have (if I survive corona-fecking-virus  :roll: ) a reasonable retirement – but god know, I've worked for it. I've made sacrifices for it. Yet I'm lucky in the respect that I've got a good network of friends and contacts, that I've never really been out of work – that's not true for everyone I realise. But those are contacts and friends I've earned the respect of (and theirs for me) the hard way



I don't buy the communism stuff I'm afraid. You see, I wanted to earn money. To get married. To have kids. To own my own home. To be respectable I suppose. Because ultimately I guess I wanted to have what my family never really had when I was a kid. I didn't want my kids to grow up like that. Does that mean that a little "elitism" exists in us all? I think it probably does. I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing. We live in (or should live in I believe) a meritocracy, not just one where everyone is "equal" because it's a liberal article of faith. Human beings are hierarchal. Some lead. Some follow. Some are good at some things, some good at others. I think the concept of bland "equality" sounds awful. Equality of opportunity yes. Of outcome, no.



What gets my back up about liberal elitism is their sense of moral superiority. It's the way that a state owned broadcaster like the BBC pretends to be impartial when its anything but. It's the sniffy attitude to the English flag, the pretence that liberalism represents a set of universal values, and to disagree with one of them (like mass immigration for instance) results in accusations like "you don't like foreigners – eg, you're a racist". Its the shambles that democracy became over Brexit.



I think the current state of the working class was described best by Owen Jones "demonisation"  – ironically I detest the scabby little **** but its close to the truth. The "working class" stopped working and were recreated as chavs and scroungers by one side, and hapless uneducated "victims" on the other. We lost our self respect. The liberal middle class regard the working class (aka the Poor, the disadvantaged, the oppressed etc) as a life purpose project – "oh, I am concerned to help the poor", as if they were dumb animals that need to be "helped" by their intellectual superiors. In the end, constructive help is always good, but I'm a great believer in that there is no one who can help you more than yourself. It's having the opportunities to help yourself out of what holds you back that counts. Whilst its true there weren't and still aren't the same opportunities for you if you come from a disadvantaged background, there are still those who rise from it. And there are plenty of those who disadvantage themselves too.



That's why communism will never work in my opinion – because we aren't equal, and we never will be. And that's why "elitism" exists I guess.

Ha! and you have the cheek to call me a daft old sod,you ain't far behind.........other than that not a bad summary  :-P  :-P  :-P  :-P

[DeppityDawg]

Indeed. But every thread in every forum sooner or later goes off topic so I wouldn't worry about that as you would have to send 90% of the posts made on here to the tower. My post was merely a response to something you said. You don't have to feel the need to reply. But you already know why there is a class distinction in society  (and I am not talking about snobbery but elitism), even if you are not aware why that came about or why it is maintained.

Boycey I understand what you are saying. But even if I'd known much about Marx when I was 15, I doubt it would have made much difference to how things turned out. Talking about class distinctions, and specifically for me anyway, the poverty and lack of opportunity I remember, my over riding desire was that I wanted out of it – it never even occurred to me that I could change it even if I'd wanted to.



I'm close to 60 now. I'm relatively well off. Not wealthy by any means, but I'm ok. I don't rent anything. My mortgage will be paid off in about 18 months. Its not a huge house, but its mine. I'll have (if I survive corona-fecking-virus  :roll: ) a reasonable retirement – but god know, I've worked for it. I've made sacrifices for it. Yet I'm lucky in the respect that I've got a good network of friends and contacts, that I've never really been out of work – that's not true for everyone I realise. But those are contacts and friends I've earned the respect of (and theirs for me) the hard way



I don't buy the communism stuff I'm afraid. You see, I wanted to earn money. To get married. To have kids. To own my own home. To be respectable I suppose. Because ultimately I guess I wanted to have what my family never really had when I was a kid. I didn't want my kids to grow up like that. Does that mean that a little "elitism" exists in us all? I think it probably does. I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing. We live in (or should live in I believe) a meritocracy, not just one where everyone is "equal" because it's a liberal article of faith. Human beings are hierarchal. Some lead. Some follow. Some are good at some things, some good at others. I think the concept of bland "equality" sounds awful. Equality of opportunity yes. Of outcome, no.



What gets my back up about liberal elitism is their sense of moral superiority. It's the way that a state owned broadcaster like the BBC pretends to be impartial when its anything but. It's the sniffy attitude to the English flag, the pretence that liberalism represents a set of universal values, and to disagree with one of them (like mass immigration for instance) results in accusations like "you don't like foreigners – eg, you're a racist". Its the shambles that democracy became over Brexit.



I think the current state of the working class was described best by Owen Jones "demonisation"  – ironically I detest the scabby little **** but its close to the truth. The "working class" stopped working and were recreated as chavs and scroungers by one side, and hapless uneducated "victims" on the other. We lost our self respect. The liberal middle class regard the working class (aka the Poor, the disadvantaged, the oppressed etc) as a life purpose project – "oh, I am concerned to help the poor", as if they were dumb animals that need to be "helped" by their intellectual superiors. In the end, constructive help is always good, but I'm a great believer in that there is no one who can help you more than yourself. It's having the opportunities to help yourself out of what holds you back that counts. Whilst its true there weren't and still aren't the same opportunities for you if you come from a disadvantaged background, there are still those who rise from it. And there are plenty of those who disadvantage themselves too.



That's why communism will never work in my opinion – because we aren't equal, and we never will be. And that's why "elitism" exists I guess.