Elitism, clarse and all that...

[Borg Refinery]

I'd be interested to get a discussion with a qualified economist on it because It seems to me that a capitalist economy must be reliant on some being richer than others otherwise it's communist by definition.

That has nothing to do with my post.

The other difference is that I know how to paint a wall but I am happy to pay someone else to do it, but the person who does it would be unable to do my job.   If your profession is providing services that pretty much anyone can do, at least to a moderate quality using publicly available instructions,  but don't want to take the time, your are by definition reliant on those people being at least as well off as you or richer.

Oh really?



Can you paint details very carefully and precisely, and do the whole thing streak free..because most can't.



Doing something and doing it to a high standard are seperate things. Not sure what you do in IT but I'll bet it can be automated whatever it is.



Your sneering condescension towards trades becomes more apparent with every post.



Can you do what a brickie does? Moderate isn't good enough if you've a wonky wall.

It's not true for example that the job of an accountant can be automated.

Wrong again, look it up.

I never said we don't need tradespeople - I it was more a query about the relationship between economies and class and income.



Also, I still didn't see specific policy proposals to help working classes.  To me saying subsidies or more listening is vague and generalised - I was hoping for something much more specific.

He was as specific as it gets.



What do you want...detailed budgets and plans? To what end?

[Javert]

You've um, absolutely torn his argument to shreds.  ::  ::



He says who needs tradespeople..



..by that metric, who needs IT whizzes? Hey we can all revert to paperwork. We don't "have" to have IT, we can function without it.



Lawyers? The world would be better off without em'.  ::



Accountants? Many people do their own accounts nowdays - if we keep the IT on, we could get AI todo it - it already exists.



Company secs? Automatic ones exist.



I'll bet nearly any job you can think of has an automatic replacement almost-ready, even Javert's one.



Now his argument is absolutely finished..

I'd be interested to get a discussion with a qualified economist on it because It seems to me that a capitalist economy must be reliant on some being richer than others otherwise it's communist by definition.



The other difference is that I know how to paint a wall but I am happy to pay someone else to do it, but the person who does it would be unable to do my job.   If your profession is providing services that pretty much anyone can do, at least to a moderate quality using publicly available instructions,  but don't want to take the time, your are by definition reliant on those people being at least as well off as you or richer.



It's not true for example that the job of an accountant can be automated.



I never said we don't need tradespeople - I it was more a query about the relationship between economies and class and income.



Also, I still didn't see specific policy proposals to help working classes.  To me saying subsidies or more listening is vague and generalised - I was hoping for something much more specific.

[Borchester]

It's also worth pointing out that as with all skills, you can only make a living with them if:



a) Not everybody knows how to do it by themselves and

b) People have the money to pay you.



I'm not an economist, but I can imagine that arguably, it would be impossible to have an economy where painters and plumbers and so on were paid more than certain other professions, becausea big portion of the  work they do is for private clients in the end who need to have enough money to pay for that.  If the people who want their house painted for example find that it costs 6 month income to do that, they will just do it themselves.



Many professional tradespeople seem to sneer and look down upon those who don't have those skills, but rarely give much thought to the point that if that wasn't the case, they wouldn't have any customers.

Painters not so much, but plumbers possibly and gas priests almost certainly.



In my experience as writ wallah, dentists, barristers, solicitors and accountants always topped the bankruptcy league. Publicans tried to keep up but they could never manage to be so freckless as the entitled middle classes..



Something of a cliche I will admit, but there always seems to be classes in society that believe they are entitled to a certain lifestyle and piddle away their (and as often as not their clients') income in pursuit of it.

[Borchester]

It's also worth pointing out that as with all skills, you can only make a living with them if:



a) Not everybody knows how to do it by themselves and

b) People have the money to pay you.



I'm not an economist, but I can imagine that arguably, it would be impossible to have an economy where painters and plumbers and so on were paid more than certain other professions, becausea big portion of the  work they do is for private clients in the end who need to have enough money to pay for that.  If the people who want their house painted for example find that it costs 6 month income to do that, they will just do it themselves.



Many professional tradespeople seem to sneer and look down upon those who don't have those skills, but rarely give much thought to the point that if that wasn't the case, they wouldn't have any customers.

Painters not so much, but plumbers possibly and gas priests almost certainly.



In my experience as writ wallah, dentists, barristers, solicitors and accountants always topped the bankruptcy league. Publicans tried to keep up but they could never keep up.



Something of a cliche I will admit, but there always seems to be classes in society that believe they are entitled to a certain lifestyle and piddle away their (and as often as not their clients') income in pursuit of it.

[Borg Refinery]

You ASKED for some examples of what someone working class might vote for. You were given them, but you then chose to ignore the response.



Now, you've inserted a line about having an economy where "painters and plumbers get paid more than other professions"? Has anyone said that? Has anyone suggested they should?



As for tradespeople sneering, do you have any "specific examples"? Do they "sneer" more than Accountants, or Lawyers or Company Secretaries, for example? Or less? Or about the same?



Do you see where this is going?

You've um, absolutely torn his argument to shreds.  ::  ::



He says who needs tradespeople..



..by that metric, who needs IT whizzes? Hey we can all revert to paperwork. We don't "have" to have IT, we can function without it.



Lawyers? The world would be better off without em'.  ::



Accountants? Many people do their own accounts nowdays - if we keep the IT on, we could get AI todo it - it already exists.



Company secs? Automatic ones exist.



I'll bet nearly any job you can think of has an automatic replacement almost-ready, even Javert's one.



Now his argument is absolutely finished..

[DeppityDawg]

It's also worth pointing out that as with all skills, you can only make a living with them if:



a) Not everybody knows how to do it by themselves and

b) People have the money to pay you.



I'm not an economist, but I can imagine that arguably, it would be impossible to have an economy where painters and plumbers and so on were paid more than certain other professions, becausea big portion of the  work they do is for private clients in the end who need to have enough money to pay for that.  If the people who want their house painted for example find that it costs 6 month income to do that, they will just do it themselves.



Many professional tradespeople seem to sneer and look down upon those who don't have those skills, but rarely give much thought to the point that if that wasn't the case, they wouldn't have any customers.

You ASKED for some examples of what someone working class might vote for. You were given them, but you then chose to ignore the response.



Now, you've inserted a line about having an economy where "painters and plumbers get paid more than other professions"? Has anyone said that? Has anyone suggested they should?



As for tradespeople sneering, do you have any "specific examples"? Do they "sneer" more than Accountants, or Lawyers or Company Secretaries, for example? Or less? Or about the same?



Do you see where this is going?

[Javert]

:hattip



The skills you mention are still in demand for now (painters too) but they won't be for long. I think it's best if they learn both so they have a wide variety of skill sets, but yeah the old style apprenticing thing seemed to yield results; and you could do well even if you didn't graduate secondary. Maybe that should be amended.

It's also worth pointing out that as with all skills, you can only make a living with them if:



a) Not everybody knows how to do it by themselves and

b) People have the money to pay you.



I'm not an economist, but I can imagine that arguably, it would be impossible to have an economy where painters and plumbers and so on were paid more than certain other professions, becausea big portion of the  work they do is for private clients in the end who need to have enough money to pay for that.  If the people who want their house painted for example find that it costs 6 month income to do that, they will just do it themselves.



Many professional tradespeople seem to sneer and look down upon those who don't have those skills, but rarely give much thought to the point that if that wasn't the case, they wouldn't have any customers.

[Javert]

Scholarships are given to exceptional students.

But there isn't room in Eton for everyone.



Also, there is an entrance exam. No matter how much money mum and dad has, if you aren't an above average student to start with, you won't get in.



Fee paying schools can't attract that kind of money unless they have a track record of getting results.

So they use a selective admissions policy.



To my mind breeding is a factor.

Intelligence has a hereditary component.

And wisdom/work ethic is likewise passed on.



That's not to say there is no social mobility here.

There is loads and loads of it.



Does a good education give you an advanatage in life?

It can do.



But it should be noted that a great many people have done very well indeed without one.

There is more than one way to get ahead. More than one path open to a person in life.

A good education most definitely does give a big advantage in life.  There is no "can" or "might" about it.  Yes there are some exceptions that prove the rule, but yet again the data shows a massive link between education level and life success.



I went to a private school and I know very well that the exam that gets you in there is not that hard, and that even not very clever kids can quite easily be coached and trained to pass that exam.  It mainly weeds out those who refuse to even try or listen at all.  The exam is a test of the parents willingness to spend money and time to teach their kids a few things.



The idea that only really clever folk can get into private school is laughable, as I saw when I was there.



"Breeding is a factor" - again - laughable unless you mean in terms of having and spending a lot of money.



As I've said, anyone who claims that a child born to a very poor working class family, especially if they are on benefits and have problems like addition etc, has the same chance of doing well as a child born to a rich family is living in cloud cuckoo land.



I haven't had time to read that whole report that was put out there by Deppity, but in skimming through, this was one of the quotes that jumped out at me - they appear to be highlighting one phenomenon that white working class families appear to be more inclined to think that education is unnecessary and a waste of time - if that's the view of the parents, obviously the children won't do well at school.



"We are finding, as we've opened a centre in a predominantly white working class area, that we're having to do a lot more work with the parents in more ethnically mixed areas. Our young people who come from immigrant families, their parents are not anti-education, but need extra support, and don't know how to navigate the system. Whereas some of our white working class families have negative views of education, and no aspiration in that direction"

Manager at a charity



I also read today that Eton is planning to create their own social bubble where everyone is tested going in and out so that they can open up the school earlier - very egalitarian indeed.



Still, I suppose I should be grateful as at least it gives more good opportunities to those parents and children to do see the value in education and working hard to learn things.

[Borchester]

:hattip



The skills you mention are still in demand for now (painters too) but they won't be for long. I think it's best if they learn both so they have a wide variety of skill sets, but yeah the old style apprenticing thing seemed to yield results; and you could do well even if you didn't graduate secondary. Maybe that should be amended.

No one knows what the future holds. All I can say is that I have academic qualifications and some practical skills and while (other than at Uni) I have never had anyone cry, "Just the man we need to find the integral of this complex function," I have found my skills in painting, decorating, gardening and basic electrical and plumbing work sufficient to feed me and mine.



Overall I reckon the most important skill is the ability to say, this looks interesting, leave it with me and I will sort it out.

[Borg Refinery]

He means (I think) more "interest" in towns outside London and the South East, like Tyneside/Teesside, Liverpool, South Wales corridor etc. Such as subsidies and actual money to help businesses set up in such areas instead of "powerhouse" rhetoric. That isn't the same as a handout, but you knew that



More investment is part of the equation. Better access to meaningful training for the young, or those in employment to help them progress to better jobs or change careers. Help to encourage youngsters into industry and commerce as an alternative to expensive University degrees of dubious value.



Housing - more housebuilding and starter homes to help youngsters and those in lower paid jobs onto the housing ladder. More emphasis too on housing associations and other collective rental schemes to broaden the choice - the emphasis on all this should be affordability, without unduly affecting quality  - eg, not endless blocks of shoebox size flats



More decentralisation of government services and departments to the regions, and more chance of cities other than London getting some investment in major projects



One thing about Secondary Modern Schools was that they taught practical skills, and I think there should be a return at least in part to this for those who might be less academic but be more practical or technically minded. I appreciate that the old style industries have gone, but skills such as plumbers, carpenters, bricklayers etc, are all in demand - as a society we devalued these skills (Blairs' put a flag on a bus shelter and call it a university) meaning less youngsters saw a future in them - you can't then blame immigrants with those skills for coming here to fill that demand, but its unforgiveable not to have given our own youngsters other opportunities and alternatives to computer skills and "media studies". Not all young lads are like Beelbeeb and you.

 :hattip



The skills you mention are still in demand for now (painters too) but they won't be for long. I think it's best if they learn both so they have a wide variety of skill sets, but yeah the old style apprenticing thing seemed to yield results; and you could do well even if you didn't graduate secondary. Maybe that should be amended.

[Borg Refinery]

Did she have to convert to Catholicism!

(Or worse).

Catholic schools and all others are required to take in quotas of other religion students, that was so even in the 1970's.

[Baff]

Did she have to convert to Catholicism!

(Or worse).

[Borchester]

Also, there is an entrance exam. No matter how much money mum and dad has, if you aren't an above average student to start with, you won't get in.

A good point and often overlooked.



My children were privately educated and to get into their private schools had to sit an exam equivalent to the old 11+ with bells on. Except that they, along with all the other poor buggers, took the exam when they were 10.



For a good education you don't need well meaning educationalists and Guardian readers. They will talk a good battle but at the end of the day will just have lots of meetings and publish papers and be very passionate on the TV and then blame everything on society and demand more resources and get sod all done.



What you need for a good education is devoted but pushy parents. Usually the mother. Fathers are ok but tend to get side tracked so they are best sent off to find the money for the school and tuition fees. But mothers...



My wife once tutored a girl for the entrance exam to Channing School and it was a struggle. Finally my wife turned to the mother and joked, "Well Bahvana, I can get your girl through the exam but I will have to ask you to dance naked down the street with a rose between your teeth."



And Bahvana replied, "What colour rose?"

[Borchester]

Also, there is an entrance exam. No matter how much money mum and dad has, if you aren't an above average student to start with, you won't get in.

A good point and often overlooked.



My children were privately educated and to get into their private schools had to sit an exam equivalent to the old 11+ with bells on. Except that they, along with all the other poor buggers, took the exam when they were 10.



For a good education you don't need well meaning educationalists and Guardian readers. They will talk a good battle but at the end of the day will just have lots of meetings and publish papers and be very passionate on the TV and then blame everything on society and demand more resources and get sod all done.



What you need for a good education is devoted but pushy parents. Usually the mother. Fathers are ok but tend to get side tracked so they are best sent off to find the money for the school and tuition fees. But mothers...



My wife once tutored a girl for the entrance exam to Channing School and it was a struggle. Finally my wife turned to the mother and joked, "Well Bahvana, I can get your girl through the exam but I will have to ask you to dance naked down the street with a rose between your teeth."



And Bahvana replied, "What colour rose?"

[Baff]

Scholarships are given to exceptional students.

But there isn't room in Eton for everyone.



Also, there is an entrance exam. No matter how much money mum and dad has, if you aren't an above average student to start with, you won't get in.



Fee paying schools can't attract that kind of money unless they have a track record of getting results.

So they use a selective admissions policy.





To my mind breeding is a factor.

Intelligence has a hereditary component.

And wisdom/work ethic is likewise passed on.



That's not to say there is no social mobility here.

There is loads and loads of it.





Does a good education give you an advanatage in life?

It can do.



But it should be noted that a great many people have done very well indeed without one.

There is more than one way to get ahead. More than one path open to a person in life.