Elitism, clarse and all that...

[DeppityDawg]

In what way have white working class kids specifically been abandoned by everyone?  Can you give some examples, ideally with data rather than anecdotes?  

Here, fill your boots, Mr Spock. Its a few years old, but highly relevant to this discussion



https://impetus.org.uk/assets/publications/Report/Impetus-PEF_Digging-Deeper1_June_2014.pdf">https://impetus.org.uk/assets/publicati ... e_2014.pdf">https://impetus.org.uk/assets/publications/Report/Impetus-PEF_Digging-Deeper1_June_2014.pdf



I don't agree with some of it, but much of what has been discussed is in there - sorry it isn't full of calculus, data, tables, equations and decimal points to the 400,000th fecking place. There are lots of complex reasons why people "fail" it seems, which are not solely about "privilege" (although that is crucial), some of it is family/cultural and some of it is behavioural



Tbh, I find your constant obsession with "data" and the veiled suggestion that anything "anecdotal" is beneath your level boring and not a little insulting, as if somehow, a life spent living is worth less than one on paper. A lot of the stuff in that link is "anecdotal", but I assume since its from CEOs and senior managers, charity workers, headmasters, support groups and dozens of others, it will carry more weight for you than reading some half educated old git who can barely add up on an internet forum  :roll:

[DeppityDawg]

I guess that's a start, but do you have any more specific ideas?



Subsidies for northern towns, unless it's much more specific about what is being subsidised, sounds a bit like handouts,

He means (I think) more "interest" in towns outside London and the South East, like Tyneside/Teesside, Liverpool, South Wales corridor etc. Such as subsidies and actual money to help businesses set up in such areas instead of "powerhouse" rhetoric. That isn't the same as a handout, but you knew that



More investment is part of the equation. Better access to meaningful training for the young, or those in employment to help them progress to better jobs or change careers. Help to encourage youngsters into industry and commerce as an alternative to expensive University degrees of dubious value.



Housing - more housebuilding and starter homes to help youngsters and those in lower paid jobs onto the housing ladder. More emphasis too on housing associations and other collective rental schemes to broaden the choice - the emphasis on all this should be affordability, without unduly affecting quality  - eg, not endless blocks of shoebox size flats



More decentralisation of government services and departments to the regions, and more chance of cities other than London getting some investment in major projects



One thing about Secondary Modern Schools was that they taught practical skills, and I think there should be a return at least in part to this for those who might be less academic but be more practical or technically minded. I appreciate that the old style industries have gone, but skills such as plumbers, carpenters, bricklayers etc, are all in demand - as a society we devalued these skills (Blairs' put a flag on a bus shelter and call it a university) meaning less youngsters saw a future in them - you can't then blame immigrants with those skills for coming here to fill that demand, but its unforgiveable not to have given our own youngsters other opportunities and alternatives to computer skills and "media studies". Not all young lads are like Beelbeeb and you.

[Nalaar]

I have never said that the poor are some kind of blob of victimhood.   What I've said is that only truly exceptional or lucky people can still succeed if they have the dice loaded against them from birth, whereas those who have the dice loaded in their favour, will have to try really hard to fail.

I'd say 'this, but more'

How your dice are loaded, is just luck.

How you respond to how your dice are loaded, more luck.

How everyone around you interacts in every moment with you, again luck.

[Javert]

Oh so you are a quotas man are you? There is a difference between taking rights to these positions just because the numbers look good on the equality charts, and places earned by those who have something to offer of value to the role. Every case would be different and I think birth and worth is over-rated if we honestly look at all these institutions. It satisfies a certain mindset to make the case that everything is unfair.

I don't think you understood the question.  I'm not advocating quotas for anything.



What I understood is that you think that whether someone does well is all down to their own character and nothing to do with their advantages at birth.



What I am saying is that if that was true, there wouldn't need to be any quotas, because your chance of being getting any occupation you are interested in would depend solely on your own determination.  



However the reality is that if you look at the board rooms of companies, or the highly paid professional positions, or the leaders of the country etc, the percent of people in those jobs who come from a background where their parents were in poverty is much lower than their overall percent of the population.



Also, if things really worked like that, Eton wouldn't need to exist because it would be a waste of money - why send your kids to Eton if it won't make any difference to their chances in life?  



Edit: Before anyone jumps on this, neither am I advocating the abolition of private schools or suchlike - I'm just pointing out that they provide an advantage to children that many people simply can't afford - and again before someone mentions scholarships, scholarships are given to exceptional individuals which kind of proves my entire point.



I would contend that the mere fact that Eton exists, shows that having a lot of money enables you to purchase future success for your children, success that they would not achieve without that private education.



Of course, there are exceptions to this - you can find a few.  But this is the point that I was also saying to Deppitydawg - if everyone had fairness of opportunity in life they would not be exceptions they would be normal.



If you put it the other way around - do you honestly believe that if Boris Johnson had been born in a slum house to drug addict parents, but with precisely the same genetic profile, and gone to an inner city state school, he would still be prime minister today?  



The reality is that all of these things play some role:

- How much money your parents and family have.

- Skin colour / ethnic origin.

- Quality of education.

- How much time your parents devote to your well being and upbringing and their overall motivation and ambition.

- Intelligence.

- Other genetic character traits.

- etc. etc.



I have never said that the poor are some kind of blob of victimhood.   What I've said is that only truly exceptional or lucky people can still succeed if they have the dice loaded against them from birth, whereas those who have the dice loaded in their favour, will have to try really hard to fail.

[T00ts]

This all sounds perfectly correct.



The question I would ask though, is if the above is correct, how come the board rooms, parliaments, and leaderships of this world are not at least half full of people from a working class background?  



Surely if everything is just down to choice and attitude, how much money, class, or education your parents and the people around you have, would have zero impact on your success in life?



If that's the case, it's a pretty astonishing coincidence how full our government and company leaderships are with privately educated children from high income backgrounds.

Oh so you are a quotas man are you? There is a difference between taking rights to these positions just because the numbers look good on the equality charts, and places earned by those who have something to offer of value to the role. Every case would be different and I think birth and worth is over-rated if we honestly look at all these institutions. It satisfies a certain mindset to make the case that everything is unfair.

[Javert]

Aren't we forgetting something? Surely we can't dismiss choice. Our upbringing doesn't have to determine who we are. Class is irrelevant. It is our choice which side of the tracks we end up on. It is our choice if we become layabouts, husband or wife beaters, alcoholics etc. We determine who we are and  how we behave and what life choices we make. There are enough examples of people who have been given every advantage in life and they still go off the rails in one way or another. The decision to be an upright citizen who contributes to society at whatever level is more personal choice than anything else. Handouts are not going to change that. People are not all the same and too much is made of academic success when perhaps character is more important. I can't help but feel that there is a social laziness that continues trying to make one size fit all.

This all sounds perfectly correct.



The question I would ask though, is if the above is correct, how come the board rooms, parliaments, and leaderships of this world are not at least half full of people from a working class background?  



Surely if everything is just down to choice and attitude, how much money, class, or education your parents and the people around you have, would have zero impact on your success in life?



If that's the case, it's a pretty astonishing coincidence how full our government and company leaderships are with privately educated children from high income backgrounds.

[Javert]

You've got me mixed up with someone else.

Yes sorry that was Deppity said that.

[Borg Refinery]

I guess that's a start, but do you have any more specific ideas?



Subsidies for northern towns, unless it's much more specific about what is being subsidised, sounds a bit like handouts, which in a previous post you said were not acceptable

You've got me mixed up with someone else.

[Javert]

Really Javert?



How about some real subsidies for poor northefn towns (you are from Manchester right) to fix the imbalance, where they get feck all and London & the SE gets everything - I live in the SE but I see this clear as day. Why not put real effort into revitalizing the north? The northern powerhouse bs was a lie by Osbourne as you well know, and Labour completely abandoned them. They should be allocated resources fairly and we all know they aren't.



That is the most obvious thing I can think of.



Perhaps next, they could actually acknowledge that white working class kids have been abandoned by everyone. Rhetoric goes a long way sometimes.



Then perhaps, they could actually install politicians who listen to what people are saying, I don't say they should do everything anyone says, but they HAVE to listen otherwise they have no business being a politician.



My MP's (SallyAnnHart - under investigation for anti-semitism, islamophobia & anti-disabled comments, parachuted inn- ironically - from tyne & wear where she was privately educated) terse reply to my complaint about Cummings just proves that their ears are covered and they're singing lalala I'm not listening.

I guess that's a start, but do you have any more specific ideas?



Subsidies for northern towns, unless it's much more specific about what is being subsidised, sounds a bit like handouts, which in a previous post you said were not acceptable as they are not respectful (i.e. "give them more benefits").  It seems to me that giving subsidies to start organisations that are not viable otherwise, from a purely logical view, is the same as giving extra benefits.



That said, I guess if the person who has the job is proud of their job, maybe that means they feel respected, even if in actual fact the job wouldn't even exist without government handouts being given to run their company.



Anyway the point is, just saying subsidies is ok but what specifically?



For example you could say "the government should put billions into re-opening the coal mine".



or



"The government should put billions into starting up electric car manufacturing plants in the North East of England".



In what way have white working class kids specifically been abandoned by everyone?  Can you give some examples, ideally with data rather than anecdotes?  



And on listening to people, I guess my question is, how do you know that you've been listened to if the people you spoke to don't do what you asked them to do?  Let's say they listened to you but then don't do what you wanted - how do you know if that's because they didn't listen, or for some other reason like what you were asking for wasn't actually going to work or help in the long term?

[Borg Refinery]

It does get to the heart of it. Back in the 1950s only two of my around 160 relatives owned their own home. Currently only one of my relatives lives in a rented home.

However nationally home ownership from its peak of 73% a decade or so ago has dropped to around 68% and still falling.

Currently few young people stand a chance of owning their own home unless someone in their family carks it and leaves them one.

......Well there's always the shed you built. Perfect for storing garden gnomes and livestock.  :-P



(Ok, NOW I'm winding folk up)..

[Borg Refinery]

I think you are simply trying to wind me up. I don't take it personally and perhaps you should be in a monastery.  :hattip  ::

I'm really not. Btw I edited this bit in -



"And equally, I want you to live under a different, seperate type of society that you like. If you want Etonian privilege and Tebbit/Thatcher values then I'm not putting it down, you should be free to live as you wish. I only say these things within the context of current society which as you said, is pretty awful with politicians failing left, right and centr -- while practically no-one is satisfied or getting what they want."



And what is so bad about that?



All I suggest is that we get our democratic wishes. I wish I was ascetic enough to stay in a monastery, but I am a bad sinner, that's why I want to live in a good society.

[T00ts]

No sorry, but it sounds like you have run out of one.  :-P



I am simply replying to your points on their individual bases. What's so bad about that? You are clearly taking it very personally, not sure why as I actually agree with what is, arguably, your main point about paths in life and ways to happiness? 🤔 You were indeed engaging in whataboutery; you said "what about the sociakists who are xxxxx".







Ok Toots, but I'm not really a socialist, you saw me explain my political ideology to Deppity earlier; within such a world, my own type of society would ideally resemble something like an Orthodox monastery.



Now I don't expect anyone else to live like that if they don't want it, but I want a society like that for myself and others who desire it -- but I'm not ascetic enough to be a monk, but a society that aspires to that? Yes.

I think you are simply trying to wind me up. I don't take it personally and perhaps you should be in a monastery.  :hattip  ::

[papasmurf]

 Nothing is perfect but nothing is as imperfect as Socialism.

Nothing is as corrupt as the Tory party.

[Borg Refinery]

We need Comrade Sampanski here to update us on the current 5 year plan  ::



I actually joked with him once that I'd probably like to live in modern day Russia under a strong autocratic leader like Putin. I think the population largely view him as a paternalistic kind of leader. He's very much "one of them", but either way strong leadership has always been a fundamental part of Russian life I've seen it said - I don't really know if that's true, but I think Russians seem much more patriotic than modern day westerners



But yes, meritocratic sounds good - the only problem would be who decides on what is meant by "merit-able" I suppose.



A society where target practice on small, blue garden gnome type ornaments was practiced sounds good also.

Fair enough.  ::



And I would like you (and T00ts if she isn't livid with me..) to live under the systems that you want, or at least a close-compromise that gives you most of what you want as I said.



A lot of people like Putin, I see the arguments in his favour after Russia was forced to live under Yeltsin. I guess yes, Russians are more patriotic. He's not my cup of tea though.  :-P

[papasmurf]

That's ridiculous. Eton has one of the best educations available in this country.

You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear, there far to many Eton educated sows ears in position of power.