Elitism, clarse and all that...

[Borg Refinery]

Aren't we forgetting something? Surely we can't dismiss choice. Our upbringing doesn't have to determine who we are. Class is irrelevant.

Are you saying that everyone has the choice of joining the old boys club if they want?



That is pretty much impossible. And it's absolutely the case that those with an upper-class upbringing have to do far less and can get away with far more.



I don't resent them for it, it's a good thing if you are lucky enough to be born made - but it simply isn't true that it's 'irrelevant'. Of course it's relevant.



And there are quite a sizeable amount of people out there, as I have demonstrated, that believe that those on things like disability are just feckless layabouts, just like wiggles, and that others are liars too. And yet, that's refuted by the govt's own stats wrt those things.



And in my opinion, there are also those who simply don't gel with this type of society, some of them are geniuses with an IQ we were mortals can't contemplate; but they are considered feckless scroungers too, when they are not - they don't function well in the system, same for many millenials shunted from crap job to the next in insecure housing.



It is a myth that only hard work alone gets you out of any hole, it's a bit Norman Tebbit.. it's hard work and luck, plus availability of opportunities that do this.

[papasmurf]

 I can't imagine anything more awful than bland equality. Is it fair to say that "elitism" has to exist in human behaviour in order for an society to work? I think it does.

The problem I have is Britain's elite a so incompetent and stupid. With few exceptions they are as much use a chocolate spanner.

[DeppityDawg]

Aren't we forgetting something? Surely we can't dismiss choice. Our upbringing doesn't have to determine who we are. Class is irrelevant. It is our choice which side of the tracks we end up on. It is our choice if we become layabouts, husband or wife beaters, alcoholics etc. We determine who we are and  how we behave and what life choices we make. There are enough examples of people who have been given every advantage in life and they still go off the rails in one way or another. The decision to be an upright citizen who contributes to society at whatever level is more personal choice than anything else. Handouts are not going to change that. People are not all the same and too much is made of academic success when perhaps character is more important. I can't help but feel that there is a social laziness that continues trying to make one size fit all.

This is (mostly) the point I am attempting (and failing it seems  :: ) to make.



See. We have much more in common that you think...except I can't do the splits  ::

[DeppityDawg]

Dunno if it's right, or possible, or crazy, or if it'd work in reality or if I'm dreaming but it makes sense to me.



What type of system would you want to live under?

I get it. I really do. But to me, I suppose its a lot about getting older and becoming a miserable auld **** who just wants to argue with everyone  ::



You have now achieved a DD "level 2" poster status, someone who can argue his point while still being able to have a laugh with  



System? Hmm. I'm not sure one exists that would eradicate distinctions completely - I'm not even sure I'd want one - as I said, I can't imagine anything more awful than bland equality. Is it fair to say that "elitism" has to exist in human behaviour in order for an society to work? I think it does.

[papasmurf]

And in the very next post you prove yet again that you are incapable of reasoned discussion. All your contribution to this forum consists of is isolating one line from a post and addressing imaginary arguments.

Because it is the one line which needed challenging so I did.  just because someone tells you they are scrounging/committing fraud does not mean they are. They are probably winding you up because you deserves it.

People on benefits have to be compliant with the regulations and are checked on on a regular basis.

[T00ts]

Aren't we forgetting something? Surely we can't dismiss choice. Our upbringing doesn't have to determine who we are. Class is irrelevant. It is our choice which side of the tracks we end up on. It is our choice if we become layabouts, husband or wife beaters, alcoholics etc. We determine who we are and  how we behave and what life choices we make. There are enough examples of people who have been given every advantage in life and they still go off the rails in one way or another. The decision to be an upright citizen who contributes to society at whatever level is more personal choice than anything else. Handouts are not going to change that. People are not all the same and too much is made of academic success when perhaps character is more important. I can't help but feel that there is a social laziness that continues trying to make one size fit all.

[DeppityDawg]

You think you know. 89% of those who phone the "shop a benefit fraud," hotline are proven to be wrong.

And in the very next post you prove yet again that you are incapable of reasoned discussion. All your contribution to this forum consists of is isolating one line from a post and addressing imaginary arguments.



I said I "think" he is a lazy fat c**t. I "know" he hasn't worked (at least since I've lived here) because he shamelessly admits it and he thinks it's funny. His family are (in my opinion) little better. But you don't read other peoples posts, you react to carefully selected lines in order to pursue your agenda.



Now as I've already said. If you aren't going to engage in the whole discussion,  go paint your shed, rebuild your barbeque or poke around with your Thai cookery device. In other words, feck off and annoy someone else.

[Borg Refinery]

Oh ok, it was just a pdf detailing some ipsos mori surveying.



https://ibb.co/gj0wZxh">



Those perceptions are far off, it's lt 1% on most of those measures.



The grauniad one is ipsos mori as well, they supposedly have the most robust and accurate polling out of the main polling organizations, yeah still not great but eh.



Okay so you made an excellent point.

The point is if you allow victimhood to be something you can only escape by following *this* political doctrine, then what makes this doctrine any less manipulative than the next one? The whole concept of "victimhood" is enshrined in liberal left thinking, and I refuse to accept it, that's all.

But that hits at the heart of all politics, it's all manipulation. Yep liberal leftism is total manipulation and like all the others, they frame some as victims and others as the problem. JoG was saying how he hates political scientists - they say the original political dcirntist was Plato - they say ancient greece and athenian democracy is some wonderful ideal - but it was one of the most early refined forms of manipulation.



B Pascal summed it up



"If they [Plato and Aristotle] wrote about politics it was as if to lay down rules for a madhouse. And if they pretended to treat it as something really important it was because they knew that the madmen they were talking to believed themselves to be kings and emperors."



That's the truth of it all, really. So politics is really just the art of appeasing those with power in the madhouse.



How do we get away from all that and redesign our futures (all of us), and take real control over the world so it belongs to everyone?



I already laid out my idea plainly and simply (Thomzs seemed to like it before he went off on one at me)

My political ideology is really just some sort of confederation around the world, where different types of societies are allowed to exist; not just neoliberal capitalist experiments - although if a group of people want to live under neoliberalism then let them; real self-determination and autonomy is permitted and everyone isn't beholden to one standard; America's bullying, markets; the likes of moody's and fitch and so forth.. If the commies want their little enclave, let them have it, if English nationalists want a slice of the country to themselves, let them live as they wish..same for other types of capitalist, agrarians, odd cultists, theocrats ...and so on and so forth. And with some compromises, assurances and some way of arbitrating disputes and disallowing stuff like mass abuse or genocide etc, with several reasonable societies arbitrating; it's the only way I can see real freedom and peace enduring around the world.

https://politicalforums.uk/pol/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1017&p=23918&hilit=confederation#p23918">https://politicalforums.uk/pol/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1017&p=23918&hilit=confederation#p23918



Dunno if it's right, or possible, or crazy, or if it'd work in reality or if I'm dreaming but it makes sense to me.



What type of system would you want to live under?

[papasmurf]

 I know examples exist from my own experience.

You think you know. 89% of those who phone the "shop a benefit fraud," hotline are proven to be wrong. Which is why I dismiss all anecdotal comment about scrounger and cheats people know.

Unless you have access to someone's medical records,  bank accounts, building society accounts and other finances it is impossible to know the true position.



Link to Freedom Of Information request and answer from the DWP:-



https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/615813/response/1468745/attach/html/2/reply%2039323.pdf.html">https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... 3.pdf.html">https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/615813/response/1468745/attach/html/2/reply%2039323.pdf.html



DWP Response:

 

I can confirm that the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) does hold the information that

you have requested.

 

The percentage of allegations of disability benefit fraud investigated that proved to be non-

fraudulent in 2017 – 2018 was 89%*.

 

The percentage of allegations of disability benefit investigated that proved to be non-fraudulent

in 2018 – 2019 was 89%*.

[DeppityDawg]

Nah there's a lot like him with his doggedness.



https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/103512/1/casepaper199.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiVkYiqlerpAhXEWhUIHTP9Ah44ChAWMAl6BAgAEAE&usg=AOvVaw0rOx4tHF1cAXwDeeJWfKCf">https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... wDeeJWfKCf">https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/103512/1/casepaper199.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiVkYiqlerpAhXEWhUIHTP9Ah44ChAWMAl6BAgAEAE&usg=AOvVaw0rOx4tHF1cAXwDeeJWfKCf



https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/oct/29/todays-key-fact-you-are-probably-wrong-about-almost-everything">https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... everything">https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/oct/29/todays-key-fact-you-are-probably-wrong-about-almost-everything



That's pretty not good. I think yougov have said 3 in 100 brits think the earth is flat too which is..way too high.

I can't open the first link for some reason, but I get the drift from the Guardian article. Not a publication (in my opinion anyway) who can be trusted to be impartial, so I would expect a "ah, but you are wrong, and here are some figures from the (usually right on, trusted liberal) Runnymede Trust or the Rowntree foundation to prove it" kind of article from them. And you see how quickly the forum crank jumps on one line in my posts and completely misrepresents what was said? Not being wholly representative of the truth isn't confined to Daily Wail readers and right wing zealots you know.



Again, its not really my point how the media portray it - its not the claim I made (that 9 kerzillion people have never worked), and I know examples exist from my own experience. Admittedly, they vary by degrees from the stereotypes, and that is where I think peoples perceptions come from - they lump whole groups of people together (after all, isn't that what class discussion is about in the end) so one issue becomes symptomatic of ALL related issues. Hasn't worked for a few years becomes has never worked kind of thing. I try to talk about things from an experience point of view that I KNOW to be true, not what I THINK is true. I may not always get it 100% right, but I try.



If you look at Javerts replies to my posts, they all centre around the idea that the "wurkin clarse" is some kind of victim group in its entirety, and (it seems to me anyway) that little to no exception is made for any other causation as to why people find themselves in the situations they do. Alcoholic? "Its because I is disadvantaged mate" Beats his wife up? "Its because I ain't educated, pal" Deals drugs? "I never had any opportunities me ole mate" And so on. We KNOW that poverty, lack of education and opportunity etc, disadvantages people, but we don't ALL become drug dealers and wife beaters, is what I am trying to say. His response to my replies (like being a Thatcherite for example) suggest that anyone who is determined to get out of it is motivated by greed, but it still return to the SAME start point, eg that we (the disadvantaged, working class, whatever) are ALL victims, and I refuse to accept that. My point is that you can be a victim if you want to be, but you DON'T have to be. The point is if you allow victimhood to be something you can only escape by following *this* political doctrine, then what makes this doctrine any less manipulative than the next one? The whole concept of "victimhood" is enshrined in liberal left thinking, and I refuse to accept it, that's all.

[papasmurf]

That's pretty not good. I think yougov have said 3 in 100 brits think the earth is flat too which is..way too high.

Judging by idiots on internet forums that is way too low.

[Borg Refinery]

Nah there's a lot like him with his doggedness.



https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/103512/1/casepaper199.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiVkYiqlerpAhXEWhUIHTP9Ah44ChAWMAl6BAgAEAE&usg=AOvVaw0rOx4tHF1cAXwDeeJWfKCf">https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... wDeeJWfKCf">https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/103512/1/casepaper199.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiVkYiqlerpAhXEWhUIHTP9Ah44ChAWMAl6BAgAEAE&usg=AOvVaw0rOx4tHF1cAXwDeeJWfKCf



https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/oct/29/todays-key-fact-you-are-probably-wrong-about-almost-everything">https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... everything">https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/oct/29/todays-key-fact-you-are-probably-wrong-about-almost-everything



That's pretty not good. I think yougov have said 3 in 100 brits think the earth is flat too which is..way too high.

[DeppityDawg]

Hmmm must try harder :-P  :-P

What you haven't done is

1)Mentioned hand wringing liberals (like me apparently)

2) Wanting to shoe some poor sod

3)call me Ken Clarke

4)paint the shed

5)get the beer in

 :-P  :-P  :-P  :-P

1) You're a hand wringing liberal

2) Papasmurf

3) I already did

4) Wor lass said it first

5) Oh, I can't wait  ::  ::  ::

[DeppityDawg]

Ok, but you say "I don't think anyone seriously believes its a big problem", but you noticed wiggles right? There's plenty like him and the govt wants as many people like that on its side as possible.

Tbf, I don't think anyone takes "Wiggles" seriously. Its like that famous line you used to find written on the inside of public bog doors



"[Wiggles] talks to his dog...but the dog doesn't listen"  ::  ::  ::

[Borg Refinery]

Yeah had some of that,instructions translated from Chinese to Welsh to Hindi then to Inuit back to Chinese and finally pidgin English,all totally useless and so I usually throw them in the bin......after a lot of head scratching swearing usually works out OK.  ::

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/uknews/8104830/Gas-explosion-in-Salford-near-Manchester.html">https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pictur ... ester.html">https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/uknews/8104830/Gas-explosion-in-Salford-near-Manchester.html



This wasn't you..was it?  :-P