George Floyd Riots

[Javert]

The Nazis and the Communists from mankinds dark recent past believed their own beliefs were superior to all others, and went to incredibly destructive, genocidal lengths to tear down or destroy all symbols, that they deemed politically incorrect.

Good point.  So if there were statues of Hitler they should also be left in place then?

[Borg Refinery]

Dont worry about what the americans chinks and russians are doing , you arent in their league. you can't do anything about it .

I can't do much of anything about this govt, or about 99%+ of the stuff I read & talk about, but it's still interesting. I can't do fine art but I like looking at it to use a very piss poor analogy..

[Thomas]

I don't really blame Russia for doing what it did, in the end of the day America 1) helped get Yeltsin into power 2) Sponsored all thise 'color revolutions' in all the countries nearby 3) Trird to remove Ukraine fromRussia's grasp 4) Has practised heavy espionage against them since 1999 and before.



All Russia did was discredit 'Killary' probably saving us from WWIII, as she was a bloodthirsty monster.



I don't have an issue with that. I have an issue with any country that throws doctors out of windows to lower C19 numbers. Just like everyone has criticised America for decades...



Same with China, they hacked Capitalism and played America at its own game and were winning. Dunno if that will continue.



I'm just saying that to trust them - or America - would be pretty stupid. We have been their poodle since forever and it surely hasn't helped us.



I like talking about different topics is that a crime?

Re read my posts . You are going totally off at a tangent.



I have explained my reasons time and gain , and my points .If you wish to ignore them then so be it.



......but dont tell me you dont care/its nothing to do with you one minute then start bleating about it the next.



Trump/china/russia etc etc are all incredibly important topics for you as i keep saying , which is why you insert them ( for whatever reason) into many threads.





Dont worry about what the americans chinese and russians are doing , you arent in their league. you cant do anything about it .

[Thomas]

Excellent post with some brilliant observations. You are absolutely right. This isn't about defending statues or slavetraders, its about the arbitrary right these people think they have to destroy or deface artifacts or memorials without any kind of public debate. Its the right these people seem to think they have that their "offence" trumps everything else, and that they can act unilaterally with impunity.



Where does it stop? Once all the "slave trader" statues have been torn down, what next? Its a dangerous precedent to set where you let self endorsed and self righteous people suddenly decide that they can act outside the law because they find something "offensive". History is full of offensive acts by offensive people of all shades and hues, but that's what it is, history. By all means, lets have a debate about things that our society appears to "celebrate" - those wanting those statues down might find most agree with them - but simply deciding on everyone else's behalf what we are or aren't allowed to say, hear or "celebrate" is not acceptable.

Thanks deppity , and again , we are in total agreement.



Given time , every historical artefact , statue , building etc in the uk could be analysed and some minority group found to take offence at it.



Someone had homophobic views ? off to the river with his statue. Another one a sexist? Into the river his statue goes.



Where does it begin and end , and who makes these minority anarchistic thugs  judge jury and sole arbiters of what is acceptable for us , the majority of society?



The Nazis and the Communists from mankinds dark recent past believed their own beliefs were superior to all others, and went to incredibly destructive, genocidal lengths to tear down or destroy all symbols, that they deemed politically incorrect.



Javert and his ilk with their minority views arent going to tell me or mine that they are the only ones fit to judge what is right and what is wrong.



History is littered with such people , and their destructive views and repressive tendencies did far more damage than good.

[Borg Refinery]

Sigh#



This thread is indeed about america , specifically the george floyd riots.



It was boycey who first brought trump into the thread , on your fourth post you ( again) bring russia into the thread :roll: and on your 6th post YOU bring a tweet from Trump into the thread.



This was all within the first five pages of this thread whilst i didnt join in ( replying to javert) till page 18 of the thread.



So the point im making is you  , and the wider lefties constant need to talk about trump and american political parties( whilst throwing in the ususal its russias /chinas fault) and your general hypocrisy and being all over the place when you say things like this...







....but trump , american politics and russia china is? ::



and why i said this to you...







What i think we need to do hen is start a dynamis /lefty americanisation thread , and point out the amount of times you bring trump/republicans/democrats/china/russia into threads .



As i said  , for someone who says he doesnt care about trump/american politics etc etc etc you dont half drone on about it.

I don't really blame Russia for doing what it did, in the end of the day America 1) helped get Yeltsin into power 2) Sponsored all thise 'color revolutions' in all the countries nearby 3) Trird to remove Ukraine fromRussia's grasp 4) Has practised heavy espionage against them since 1999 and before.



All Russia did was discredit 'Killary' probably saving us from WWIII, as she was a bloodthirsty monster.



I don't have an issue with that. I have an issue with any country that throws doctors out of windows to lower C19 numbers. Just like everyone has criticised America for decades...



Same with China, they hacked Capitalism and played America at its own game and were winning. Dunno if that will continue.



I'm just saying that to trust them - or America - would be pretty stupid. We have been their poodle since forever and it surely hasn't helped us.



I like talking about different topics is that a crime?

[Javert]

That about sums you up - that you think YOU can decide what is "abhorrent" without any debate whatsoever







No it fecking well isn't. Its saying people don't have the right to take the law into their own hands simply because they object to something







Then that makes you look a little pathetic, doesn't it?







He didn't present it as anything other than an opinion - in complete contrast to you who are presenting such concepts as "abhorrent" as facts as if everyone has to be offended when you are



This whole reply only underlines exactly what he said.

You are cherry picking quote from my posts and leaving out the context, even in some cases where I said the opposite of what you claim that I mean.



And those who committed crimes to get the vote for everybody in the UK like the Suffragettes and other campaigners for universal suffrage?  Should we take your (and my) vote away since those people committed crimes to get that gain?



Time will tell, but in some cases people who commit minor property crimes in order to highlight long running injustices will be seen as criminals in their present time, but may be seen as heroes a hundred years later.

[DeppityDawg]

There are some statues which clearly should not be put in places of glorification.  Stating that there are lots of statues in grey areas where it's not so clear, doesn't mean the ones that are clearly abhorrent should be left in pride of place.

That about sums you up - that you think YOU can decide what is "abhorrent" without any debate whatsoever

This is like saying, just because we can't prove that the criminal was guilty in all cases, we shouldn't bother having any trials at all.

No it fecking well isn't. Its saying people don't have the right to take the law into their own hands simply because they object to something

The main thing which veers me a bit more towards saying that I'm glad that the crowd tore this statue down, is that it appears to make Thomas and DeppityDawg angry - this to me seems like a good sign that it's a progressive thing to do.

Then that makes you look a little pathetic, doesn't it?

Also - Thomas seems to think he is the sole arbiter of whether a poster is making valid posts or not, whereas in fact it's just his opinion.

He didn't present it as anything other than an opinion - in complete contrast to you who are presenting such concepts as "abhorrent" as facts as if everyone has to be offended when you are



This whole reply only underlines exactly what he said.

[Javert]

Excellent post with some brilliant observations. You are absolutely right. This isn't about defending statues or slavetraders, its about the arbitrary right these people think they have to destroy or deface artifacts or memorials without any kind of public debate. Its the right these people seem to think they have that their "offence" trumps everything else, and that they can act unilaterally with impunity.



Where does it stop? Once all the "slave trader" statues have been torn down, what next? Its a dangerous precedent to set where you let self endorsed and self righteous people suddenly decide that they can act outside the law because they find something "offensive". History is full of offensive acts by offensive people of all shades and hues, but that's what it is, history. By all means, lets have a debate about things that our society appears to "celebrate" - those wanting those statues down might find most agree with them - but simply deciding on everyone else's behalf what we are or aren't allowed to say, hear or "celebrate" is not acceptable.

Which is why I said that I was not generally in favour of criminal damage.  It would have been much better if this statue had been taken down and moved to a museum, or an appropriate plaque put on it properly.  This had been tried for many years, and was consistently blocked by right wing councillors locally who wanted people to be proud that they had a statue of a mass murderer in the middle of their town.



There are some statues which clearly should not be put in places of glorification.  Stating that there are lots of statues in grey areas where it's not so clear, doesn't mean the ones that are clearly abhorrent should be left in pride of place.



This is like saying, just because we can't prove that the criminal was guilty in all cases, we shouldn't bother having any trials at all.



The main thing which veers me a bit more towards saying that I'm glad that the crowd tore this statue down, is that it appears to make Thomas and DeppityDawg angry - this to me seems like a good sign that it's a progressive thing to do.



I'm pretty sure Hitler and Stalin would have taken the same position as you on this matter.  That doesn't prove that you are wrong, but it doesn't prove that I am either.



For me, it's possible to think that the people who tore that statue down are both heroes and criminals at the same time - they are ahead of what the law and society should be.



Anyway, from what  I can see last night and this morning, the dominoes are starting to fall and the debate that you mention above is now happening, whereas before it was being suppressed.  As such I would see this in the same light as, for example, the sufragettes, who were seen as terrorists and criminals in their time but are now seen as heroes by most.



Also - Thomas seems to think he is the sole arbiter of whether a poster is making valid posts or not, whereas in fact it's just his opinion.

[DeppityDawg]

You really are becoming a joke figure on this forum javert with your constant make believe and misrepresentations of practically every subject.



As far as i can see , what people didnt like was mob rule and anarchists tearing down statues .



...and lack of consistency.



There are statues of people who could be described as mass murderers all over the world in every country. There are statues of people all over the world who benefitted , profited , took part in directly or undirectly , of the slave trade , of which most of the time the slaves in europe were not specifically black , but white . ( romans ,greeks , celts , scandinavians , anglo saxons etc etc etc all practiced white slavery for example and we have statues of many antiquated figures like roman emperors all over the place. )



What about the colloseum in rome? A specific arena built for the entertainment of the masses by pitting slave against slave in some barbaric sport of the day?



I bet most schoolchildren are more familiar with the name of the colloseum and what went on there with slaves then they are with the statue of that guy in bristol. How does a virtually unknown man in bristol symbolise slavery  MORE compared to a wonder of the world like the colloseum?



You are now trying to defend mob rule and wanton destruction , instead of peacefull debate and democratic decisions , which is what i find abhorrent.



You talk about the statue in bristol being taken down and put into a museum, your mob handed anarchist friends didnt give anyone the chance , it got lobbed into the feckin river from what i saw?



As i said , when i first saw those pictures , the very first thing that came to my mind was the taliban zealots destroying ancient artifacts across the middle east and afghanistan which was lamented by historians across the world.



You lefty liberal muppets and your mobs are further entrenching and dividing society with antics such as this and then trying to defend those antics.



Put your feckin spin on that javert. You are nothing more than an out of touch middle class snob who likes to jump on every huggy feelgood topic you can find.

Excellent post with some brilliant observations. You are absolutely right. This isn't about defending statues or slavetraders, its about the arbitrary right these people think they have to destroy or deface artifacts or memorials without any kind of public debate. Its the right these people seem to think they have that their "offence" trumps everything else, and that they can act unilaterally with impunity.



Where does it stop? Once all the "slave trader" statues have been torn down, what next? Its a dangerous precedent to set where you let self endorsed and self righteous people suddenly decide that they can act outside the law because they find something "offensive". History is full of offensive acts by offensive people of all shades and hues, but that's what it is, history. By all means, lets have a debate about things that our society appears to "celebrate" - those wanting those statues down might find most agree with them - but simply deciding on everyone else's behalf what we are or aren't allowed to say, hear or "celebrate" is not acceptable.

[Borchester]

Are we going to tear EVERYTHING down? The pyramids were built on slave labour and the pharaoh statues must be destroyed!

Not quite.



The guys who built the pyramids were free workers who were, like builders everywhere, ready to walk off the job if matters were not to their liking.

[Thomas]

It's a strange world where there are so many people who think that the centre of Bristol was a better place when there was a statue of a mass murderer in the middle of it.



As I said, in my view the statue should be in a museum, clearly labelled with the correct description of the actions that he took whilst alive.



And yes, I won't lose any sleep either if all the statues in the country of people who were involved in the slave trade are taken away and put in museums.



I do wonder if that moment that statue fell will turn out to be be a real moment of history.

You really are becoming a joke figure on this forum javert with your constant make believe and misrepresentations of practically every subject.



As far as i can see , what people didnt like was mob rule and anarchists tearing down statues .



...and lack of consistency.



There are statues of people who could be described as mass murderers all over the world in every country. There are statues of people all over the world who benefitted , profited , took part in directly or undirectly , of the slave trade , of which most of the time the slaves in europe were not specifically black , but white . ( romans ,greeks , celts , scandinavians , anglo saxons etc etc etc all practiced white slavery for example and we have statues of many antiquated figures like roman emperors all over the place. )



What about the colloseum in rome? A specific arena built for the entertainment of the masses by pitting slave against slave in some barbaric sport of the day?



I bet most schoolchildren are more familiar with the name of the colloseum and what went on there with slaves then they are with the statue of that guy in bristol. How does a virtually unknown man in bristol symbolise slavery  MORE compared to a wonder of the world like the colloseum?



You are now trying to defend mob rule and wanton destruction , instead of peacefull debate and democratic decisions , which is what i find abhorrent.



You talk about the statue in bristol being taken down and put into a museum, your mob handed anarchist friends didnt give anyone the chance , it got lobbed into the feckin river from what i saw?



As i said , when i first saw those pictures , the very first thing that came to my mind was the taliban zealots destroying ancient artifacts across the middle east and afghanistan which was lamented by historians across the world.



You lefty liberal muppets and your mobs are further entrenching and dividing society with antics such as this and then trying to defend those antics.



Put your feckin spin on that javert. You are nothing more than an out of touch middle class snob who likes to jump on every huggy feelgood topic you can find.

[Thomas]

Eh? There's one I can see in this section started by me.......



This thread is about America.. where do I mention Trump otherwise, quote me then..

Sigh#



This thread is indeed about america , specifically the george floyd riots.



It was boycey who first brought trump into the thread , on your fourth post you ( again) bring russia into the thread :roll: and on your 6th post YOU bring a tweet from Trump into the thread.



This was all within the first five pages of this thread whilst i didnt join in ( replying to javert) till page 18 of the thread.



So the point im making is you  , and the wider lefties constant need to talk about trump and american political parties( whilst throwing in the ususal its russias /chinas fault) and your general hypocrisy and being all over the place when you say things like this...

I'm sure you're right, but as you often say..it's nothing to do with me.

....but trump , american politics and russia china is? ::



and why i said this to you...

For someone who tells me its nothing to do with you , you dont half go on about american politics and issues in threads.You dont want to talk about foreigners in the yookay having links with american politics , but are happy to blab on about russia and chinas links ?



As i said dyno , i wont be losing any sleep over it , but i bet you do the way you drone on about it.

What i think we need to do hen is start a dynamis /lefty americanisation thread , and point out the amount of times you bring trump/republicans/democrats/china/russia into threads .



As i said  , for someone who says he doesnt care about trump/american politics etc etc etc you dont half drone on about it.

[Borg Refinery]

It's a strange world where there are so many people who think that the centre of Bristol was a better place when there was a statue of a mass murderer in the middle of it.



As I said, in my view the statue should be in a museum, clearly labelled with the correct description of the actions that he took whilst alive.



And yes, I won't lose any sleep either if all the statues in the country of people who were involved in the slave trade are taken away and put in museums.



I do wonder if that moment that statue fell will turn out to be be a real moment of history.

They try to trip a ********* up like him but he ain't followin' whitey's rules.



Jokes aside, mass murder IS our history, and rape and pillaging etc, just as it is in Scotland, just as it is in Africa, Asia, the rest of Europe, the Americas...and long before ANY modern colonialism; it was history even in Ancient Sumeria.



Are we going to tear EVERYTHING down? The pyramids were built on slave labour and the pharaoh statues must be destroyed!



Where does it end?



They could at least have got it stuck in a museum instead?



Oh btw re defunding the police?



https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/501945-los-angeles-police-report-spike-in-homicides-this-month%3Famp">https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.co ... onth%3famp">https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/501945-los-angeles-police-report-spike-in-homicides-this-month%3famp



250% spike in homicides in one week?

[Borg Refinery]

It was. Read the post , its a reply of mine to javert regarding issues specifically in the uk with not one mention of american politicians or political parties.



You on the other hand usually tend to either



1. start american political threads

Eh? There's one I can see in this section started by me.

2. bring american politics/politicians ( ie your obsession wae trump) into many threads.

?



This thread is about America.. where do I mention Trump otherwise, quote me then..

oh i think you are dyno. You are trying to put a brave face on trumps possible re election and hard brexit shortly afterwards , but your political world caved in in 2016 , and has progressively got worse.



Politically , you sound completely lost and deflated , and seem to have caught that left wing disease of constantly talking about trump to take your mind off issues at hame. Hence why im laughing .



Let it go dyno. It will only mess you up even further if he gets elected again. ::

I see we're back to the old trolling and hope it sticks strategy.

ok pal i accept yer surrender.

If you see everything as a fight, that's on you not me.

Nothin. she announced today a gang of dyslexic  drunk glaswegian vigilantes have beaten up Jimmy Sommerville..

No change there then..



 :-P When yeasked why they were doing it did they say "what's it to you jimmeh?"

[Javert]

It's a strange world where there are so many people who think that the centre of Bristol was a better place when there was a statue of a mass murderer in the middle of it.



As I said, in my view the statue should be in a museum, clearly labelled with the correct description of the actions that he took whilst alive.



And yes, I won't lose any sleep either if all the statues in the country of people who were involved in the slave trade are taken away and put in museums.



I do wonder if that moment that statue fell will turn out to be be a real moment of history.