George Floyd Riots

[Borchester]

One silver lining if one is a callous bastard Britain exports to America tear gas and baton rounds, (and other riot control equipment.)

For the Sky Geni's lad's sake don't tell DD else he will be over there offering advice on crowd control and peeing away his earnings on the Kentucky Derby.

[DeppityDawg]

The point about difficulties for the police would be great, if it wasn't for the fact that many other countries are perfectly capable of arresting violent suspects without killing them in a much higher proportion of cases.



In my view, once it gets into some of the scenarios we've seen on video and heard about, the person's prior crimes are completely irrelevant, because in a democratic civilised society it is not up to the police to decide on guilt, innocence, or punishment.  That is a matter for the courts.



For example, once you see a police officer murdering a person in cold blood over the course of 9 minutes, on camera, clearly in the expectation that he will get away with it because that's what happens around here, it doesn't really matter if that person is a paedophile or whatever, because the police officer is not the person who is allowed to decide that.



Also - do you know what institutional bias is?  Maybe there's a misunderstanding or multiple definitions.  Institutional bias is not something that is always or even often deliberate - it's when the entire system is inherently biased against certain groups.  It doesn't have to be intentional or a conspiracy.  It doesn't even have to be out of hate or racism directly - it can be unconscious but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  Hence why studies show that for example in organisations, there is a tendency for managers to unconsciously rule out the CV of people with foreign sounding names, even if that person swears blind (and even believes 100% themselves) that they are not biased against foreigners.



The article you linked clearly shows what I was alluding to - that minorities are much more likely to be killed relative to the % of the population they are.  Quoting total numbers is not the correct statistic for this discussion.



Crucially, if that bias is built into the entire society, it's unlikely that it will magically disappear over time just because most individuals would say "I think everyone is equal in all things".  The underlying systemic and unconscious biases still exist regardless of the honourable intent of each individual.



Next - I don't doubt there are many people who are so far into criminal life and intent that there is no realistic prospect of them being rehabilitated.  I also don't doubt that there are lots of people that right wing reactionaries would classify in that way, but actually can be rehabilitated with the right prolonged approach.  Additionally, you have no way of knowing whether they are genetically certain to be a lifelong criminal or it was because of their upbringing, so unless you are a highly qualified psychiatrist or suchlike, you can't really say that anyone was "born bad".



The rest of what you say is not really any different to what I'm saying - the institutional bias which I refer to includes all the aspects of life history and prospects etc - that's exactly part of what I mean - there is a bias against minorities from the day they are born because they are much more likely to be born into poverty, violence and dysfunctional situations.  That is a symptom of the bias which I'm pointing out, and that's why it won't change unless there is some actual concerted effort on the part of a whole society to do that.



In short, it's arguable that a society can become so badly biased, that it's nigh on impossible to start moving it the other way without introducing active measures to remove that bias.

How about your own "unconscious" Biases Javert? Your whole initial contribution to the thread was based on Trumps answer being to "shoot unarmed black citizens" which he never even said (he never mentioned any skin colour, and though we all know Trump is an idiot, we also all know that ISN'T policy and would never be accepted even in the USA) and foolish remarks like "if rioters won't disperse then you have to shoot them or do nothing"  - this makes you appear at best naïve and at worse the exact kind of Antifa idiot that he complains about? There was nothing in your argument that balanced this distorted view until I challenged it. Is that what you really think its like, or more how you want it to appear?



There's been very little in this entire thread that's balanced as far as I can see (that's just my opinion though) - just the usual "Trump stump" stuff and reams of lines like the above about unconscious bias, institutional racism, and very little about why people are arrested, what happens when they resist, that despite the bad ones among them, the Police are often in impossible situations, or that looting whole streets and assaulting shop owners is not really the right attention you want drawing to the problem, because it destroys the message.



As for the stuff about other countries, we have people here in the UK that die in Police custody or during arrest, and I'm sure other countries do too. I haven't looked at the figures, but you'd probably find that the percentages on an ethnicity basis would match those of the USA - what stands out about the USA is that its inequality is on a whole different scale to that of, say, European countries. The other point is that every day, across the USA and other "western countries" (I mention that because you make appear that bias and discrimination ONLY exists in developed western economies and every other nation on earth is a virtual paradise  :roll: ),  tens of thousands of people will be arrested and taken in to custody without much in the way of incident in what are often difficult circumstances. No one has mentioned either the good ones, the Police officers who are doing their jobs to the best of their ability out there over the last few nights, some of whom have been injured and shot, or examples like the National Guard section that dropped to one knee in respect in front of demonstrators. Still, theres nothing to get twisted up about Trump in that though, is there?

[papasmurf]

One silver lining if one is a callous bastard Britain exports to America tear gas and baton rounds, (and other riot control equipment.)

[Borg Refinery]

No, Ollie is a good bloke who realises that most liberals aren't liberal but spiteful little bastards who can't see why they should show compassion without a government subsidy.

Well yes, many an oap feeding the pigeons and foxes their in their foxholes has felt the same way I'm sure.  8-)

He does have this bee in his bonnet about saving the oldies and letting the economy slide back into the Stone Age. He is talking bollocks but as said, he is a good lad and should be allowed a little slack.

Why yes, I believe the Texas lt guv had the right idea "we oldies should sacrifice ourselves for the young", he said in his gated condo with a limo parked outside.

[cromwell]

I apologise if you feel I misrepresented you, that wasn't my intention. I think the issue here is that I posted originally to Javert, and instead of replying directly to you, I said that the post applied to you too, which perhaps wasn't fair. I meant specific points, but in retrospect it was perhaps lazy to expect you to pick out what applied to your argument. Trying to work and post on here at the same time, not a good idea  :-?



But yes, it is frustrating when points/posts get misrepresented, which happens a lot (no names no pack drill). I'm sticking to my argument - that's not to say yours is wrong or to marginalise it in any way (except the bit about old peoples lives not mattering, which I don't accept)

No you don't have to apologise,you disagree which is fine,I hope we've known each other long enough not to take it personally.

[Javert]

No, that's the point YOU are trying to make, the usual liberal standpoint that everything can be boiled down to "victim group" politics. There's no doubt that more black people die during police arrests or in custody as a percentage, but more white people die in the same way in absolute terms. Do we hear this in the media when one of them dies? Does half the country riot? Do their lives matter? Apparently not as much as the headlines according to soft arses like you



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52877678">https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52877678



There is also the small matter that in around 75% of cases that these deaths occur, the police are responding to a crime where violence has already been used or is used during or to resist arrest - that is not to say all, but that this HAS to be taken in to consideration in any fair discussion on the matter and that NEVER happens in the liberal monologue. There is at least one former police officer on here who could tell you what trying to detain or arrest a violent person, who may or may not be armed, who may be drunk or on drugs or both, is actually like, because I doubt you've got the first idea. Instead its easier to sit on an internet forum tossing around "moral" platitudes and let someone else do the unpleasant stuff - and incidentally risk their own life, because Police officers can and do die in these circumstance too



None of this excuses Police brutality or is to deny the Police don't feck up, but I would suggest that rather than "institutional bias", most of those involved in these confrontations with the Police are almost always from disadvantaged and disrupted backgrounds, possibly with drugs or mental health issues thrown in.



That black people make up a larger number of the victims in percentage terms possibly reflects that community wise they suffer greater disadvantages both socially and financially, which may well itself be a result of prejudice in society at large, and therefore are more likely to come into contact with the Police. There is also the silence surrounding cultural issues with black families, the high cases of father absentee-ism, greater propensity to be involved in gang relayed crime and violence and the rap "gangsta" culture. But to suggest that the Police themselves have to ALWAYS bear the responsibility of societies faults is both simplistic and unfair, Some officers undoubtedly behave badly or fail to follow procedures, but that does not make them ALL at fault



It comes down in the end to whether you believe we are all "beautiful little souls" underneath, and the unfortunate are just spoiled by circumstances. Or you accept that, regardless of their skin colour, some people are basically decent. And some people, again regardless of their skin colour, are just shits and always will be. True, some of these people will have had less privilege than you, but that doesn't and never will be the only answer to all that's wrong about someone. Its obvious which side of that choice you would stand on, possibly because you've never had someone hold a knife to your throat or had to deal with the mess of humanity that these people cause. The Police do, and sometimes they feck it up, because you know what, THEY are human beings too, and they are not perfect. Unlike you  :roll:

The point about difficulties for the police would be great, if it wasn't for the fact that many other countries are perfectly capable of arresting violent suspects without killing them in a much higher proportion of cases.



In my view, once it gets into some of the scenarios we've seen on video and heard about, the person's prior crimes are completely irrelevant, because in a democratic civilised society it is not up to the police to decide on guilt, innocence, or punishment.  That is a matter for the courts.



For example, once you see a police officer murdering a person in cold blood over the course of 9 minutes, on camera, clearly in the expectation that he will get away with it because that's what happens around here, it doesn't really matter if that person is a paedophile or whatever, because the police officer is not the person who is allowed to decide that.



Also - do you know what institutional bias is?  Maybe there's a misunderstanding or multiple definitions.  Institutional bias is not something that is always or even often deliberate - it's when the entire system is inherently biased against certain groups.  It doesn't have to be intentional or a conspiracy.  It doesn't even have to be out of hate or racism directly - it can be unconscious but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  Hence why studies show that for example in organisations, there is a tendency for managers to unconsciously rule out the CV of people with foreign sounding names, even if that person swears blind (and even believes 100% themselves) that they are not biased against foreigners.



The article you linked clearly shows what I was alluding to - that minorities are much more likely to be killed relative to the % of the population they are.  Quoting total numbers is not the correct statistic for this discussion.



Crucially, if that bias is built into the entire society, it's unlikely that it will magically disappear over time just because most individuals would say "I think everyone is equal in all things".  The underlying systemic and unconscious biases still exist regardless of the honourable intent of each individual.



Next - I don't doubt there are many people who are so far into criminal life and intent that there is no realistic prospect of them being rehabilitated.  I also don't doubt that there are lots of people that right wing reactionaries would classify in that way, but actually can be rehabilitated with the right prolonged approach.  Additionally, you have no way of knowing whether they are genetically certain to be a lifelong criminal or it was because of their upbringing, so unless you are a highly qualified psychiatrist or suchlike, you can't really say that anyone was "born bad".



The rest of what you say is not really any different to what I'm saying - the institutional bias which I refer to includes all the aspects of life history and prospects etc - that's exactly part of what I mean - there is a bias against minorities from the day they are born because they are much more likely to be born into poverty, violence and dysfunctional situations.  That is a symptom of the bias which I'm pointing out, and that's why it won't change unless there is some actual concerted effort on the part of a whole society to do that.



In short, it's arguable that a society can become so badly biased, that it's nigh on impossible to start moving it the other way without introducing active measures to remove that bias.

[DeppityDawg]

And I've been called both and you know it,who is upset though? bloody frustrated though that what I post is being made to look as something it is not.

I apologise if you feel I misrepresented you, that wasn't my intention. I think the issue here is that I posted originally to Javert, and instead of replying directly to you, I said that the post applied to you too, which perhaps wasn't fair. I meant specific points, but in retrospect it was perhaps lazy to expect you to pick out what applied to your argument. Trying to work and post on here at the same time, not a good idea  :-?



But yes, it is frustrating when points/posts get misrepresented, which happens a lot (no names no pack drill). I'm sticking to my argument - that's not to say yours is wrong or to marginalise it in any way (except the bit about old peoples lives not mattering, which I don't accept)

[cromwell]

Does he? Can't say I've seen him do that. In any case, it's nothing new is it? It's like being called a fascist or a nazi because you might be patriotic, believe in the rule of law, or be concerned about mass immigration  :roll:



No one likes having their views marginalised. I just don't see why liberals expect to be able to do it to other people, then get so upset when their views get poked with a shitty stick too.

And I've been called both and you know it,who is upset though? bloody frustrated though that what I post is being made to look as something it is not.

[cromwell]

No, Ollie is a good bloke who realises that most liberals aren't liberal but spiteful little bastards who can't see why they should show compassion without a government subsidy.



He does have this bee in his bonnet about saving the oldies and letting the economy slide back into the Stone Age. He is talking bollocks but as said, he is a good lad and should be allowed a little slack.

Bugger off  ::

[cromwell]

But liberals are soft arses  ::



I meant the points I made, which I think are fair. Because up until now this has just been one of those sucking air through teeth "oh isn't it terrible" threads. Anyone dying during an arrest or in custody is a cause for concern, but if we are only going to look at it from one perspective and ignore all other considerations, there's not much point in having a thread on it. We just as well say the police/society are always at fault and be done with it.

And I meant what I said and haven't accused you of being unfair,but of course there is a point to this thread but who  has said there is only one perspective or ignores all other considerations? not me I have now stated on umpteen occasions that you, Barry, the bloody pope vlad the putin are all entitled to differ so are others.



Again who has said the police/society are always at fault,clearly they aren't there are good coppers and bad,over in the US  though black people suffer disproportionately at the hands of the police and criminal justice system but it seems you are not allowed to say that.

Are all black people angels?....no,are all US police thugs?.....no are black people in the US always treated badly ?......no but the evidence is that  these incidents happen time and time again and each time they are told something will be done but it never is,if I was black and lived there I'd be pissed off.

We just as well say the police/society are always at fault and be done with it.

well what would you have us do say these things happen but there you go that's life and be done with it?



Anyway "black lives matter as much as any other human beings but there are sizeable sections of US society who believe otherwise " bit long winded but is that acceptable.



Regards soft arsed liberal  :-P  :-P  :hattip

[Borchester]

Is he (cromwell) a liberal when he rallies against liberalism non-stop?  :shock:

No, Ollie is a good bloke who realises that most liberals aren't liberal but spiteful little bastards who can't see why they should show compassion without a government subsidy.



He does have this bee in his bonnet about saving the oldies and letting the economy slide back into the Stone Age. He is talking bollocks but as said, he is a good lad and should be allowed a little slack.

[Borg Refinery]

Does he? Can't say I've seen him do that.

I would say so, yes.


 

In any case, it's nothing new is it? It's like being called a fascist or a nazi because you might be patriotic, believe in the rule of law, or be concerned about mass immigration  :roll:

But you're the one calling everyone who disagrees with you a liberal, no one is calling you a bloody fashitht like Rik Mayall are they.

No one likes having their views marginalised. I just don't see why liberals expect to be able to do it to other people, then get so upset when their views get poked with a shitty stick too.

What has cromwell posted that is so unreasonable? I really don't get it. Where has he marginalized your views or sought to belittle your views in any way.. it looks like it's the other way round, sorry but that's what I'm seeing.

[DeppityDawg]

Is he (cromwell) a liberal when he rallies against liberalism non-stop?  :shock:

Does he? Can't say I've seen him do that. In any case, it's nothing new is it? It's like being called a fascist or a nazi because you might be patriotic, believe in the rule of law, or be concerned about mass immigration  :roll:



No one likes having their views marginalised. I just don't see why liberals expect to be able to do it to other people, then get so upset when their views get poked with a shitty stick too.

[B0ycey]

:thup:



Very strong arguments Cromwell. Saying "Black Lives Matter", isn't saying other lives don't matter. It is just addressing an abnormally and merely a slogan. I think it is generally accepted that in America there is institutional racism within the police by looking at the stats. But as this isn't just an isolated incident and occurs within other races too, perhaps the police in America need better training and that is something both sides can agree on I guess.

[Borg Refinery]

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