George Floyd Riots

[Borg Refinery]

But liberals are soft arses  ::



I meant the points I made, which I think are fair. Because up until now this has just been one of those sucking air through teeth "oh isn't it terrible" threads. Anyone dying during an arrest or in custody is a cause for concern, but if we are only going to look at it from one perspective and ignore all other considerations, there's not much point in having a thread on it. We just as well say the police/society are always at fault and be done with it.

Is he (cromwell) a liberal when he rallies against liberalism non-stop?  :shock:

[DeppityDawg]

Well glad to hear you think I'm a soft arse and apply all the other things I've never actually said and that you think I expected an apology,why would I ? you have a different view and clearly  no matter how many times I say that's a legitimate stance to take you determine for whatever reason that I resent you for it or aren't being fair.



It's a forum people disagree ffs even with ones whose view and as individuals they respect but choose to differ with on occasion.

But liberals are soft arses  ::



I meant the points I made, which I think are fair. Because up until now this has just been one of those sucking air through teeth "oh isn't it terrible" threads. Anyone dying during an arrest or in custody is a cause for concern, but if we are only going to look at it from one perspective and ignore all other considerations, there's not much point in having a thread on it. We just as well say the police/society are always at fault and be done with it.

[cromwell]

I've answered Javert, and the same points apply in response to your good self. I have a different view of these things to you, and I fully understand Barry's position. Sorry, We are what we are, we are a result of our experiences and what we have learned from life, and I am not apologising to anyone for that.

Well glad to hear you think I'm a soft arse and apply all the other things I've never actually said and that you think I expected an apology,why would I ? you have a different view and clearly  no matter how many times I say that's a legitimate stance to take you determine for whatever reason that I resent you for it or aren't being fair.



It's a forum people disagree ffs even with ones whose view and as individuals they respect but choose to differ with on occasion.

[DeppityDawg]

Not fair? I thought I was being very fair,I have accused no one individual on here nor the majority of the wider community of not being fair toward older people not least Barry or yourself or indeed caring about people in general nor do I resent those who oppose lockdown,I don't share that view,will argue against as and when but accept its a legitimate stand to make.



Barry posted  "black lives matter anyone uncomfortable with that?" He you or anyone is perfectly entitled to that opinion,he went on to ask do Chinese,disabled people's etc lives matter and whilst I agree that everyone's lives matter I was merely pointing out that it is just a campaign name as is hillsborough (which was rubbished)and as an analogy you could just as easily ask do old people's lives matter?



Clearly with some of this govts policy and in the wider world they didn't.





Should blacks in the US be treated universally as equals  and they were complaining about what has happened over the last few hundred years I'd say get a life but that's not the case is it?



They are more likely to be jailed,treated differently and targeted by law enforcement.....not by all but a significant number so why shouldn't they say black lives matter,should they change it to black lives matters as much as anyone else's would that satisfy,it's a campaign name.



It seems opposing a view makes people uncomfortable but it is a political forum,there is much I agree with what you Barry and others post but I reserve the right to oppose when I differ,and in this case I do.



If you look back over this and the other forum I said the yanks had the right to choose trump as president I opposed the demos here especially considering  some of the twats we've welcomed .



However when the Chinese are criticised by him and others for the HK crackdown and other human rights violations,Putin seeking to make himself president for life and a Trump says he respects peaceful protests then has those same cleared by tears gas and baton charges  so he can stand outside a church waving a bible then yes he is a bloody crackpot and so is anyone who supports him in that IMO.



If you can't disagree without being called not fair I'm at a loss what I'm doing here.



Lastly what is very unfair is you going on about Sunday dinner,I hadn't a clue what you were on about had to look back lost this whole post and had to type it all over again. :rant:  :-P  :-P

I've answered Javert, and the same points apply in response to your good self. I have a different view of these things to you, and I fully understand Barry's position. Sorry, We are what we are, we are a result of our experiences and what we have learned from life, and I am not apologising to anyone for that.

[DeppityDawg]

The point is that it's been shown that the lives of those black people have mattered less, though hundreds of years of history, data, and evidence.



All western democratic countries with majority white populations are systematically and institutionally biased against minorities - this is very clear.



In the USA, especially the southern states, this extends to ongoing police brutality, most of which doesn't even make the news, targeted unfairly against non white minority groups, and the way society works preserves, maintains, and sometimes increases this discrepancy.



Unless one either questions the validity of this data, or thinks that white people are genetically superior to others and therefore this situation is normal, it's very difficult to justify this situation from any ethical or moral standpoint.

No, that's the point YOU are trying to make, the usual liberal standpoint that everything can be boiled down to "victim group" politics. There's no doubt that more black people die during police arrests or in custody as a percentage, but more white people die in the same way in absolute terms. Do we hear this in the media when one of them dies? Does half the country riot? Do their lives matter? Apparently not as much as the headlines according to soft arses like you



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52877678">https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52877678



There is also the small matter that in around 75% of cases that these deaths occur, the police are responding to a crime where violence has already been used or is used during or to resist arrest - that is not to say all, but that this HAS to be taken in to consideration in any fair discussion on the matter and that NEVER happens in the liberal monologue. There is at least one former police officer on here who could tell you what trying to detain or arrest a violent person, who may or may not be armed, who may be drunk or on drugs or both, is actually like, because I doubt you've got the first idea. Instead its easier to sit on an internet forum tossing around "moral" platitudes and let someone else do the unpleasant stuff - and incidentally risk their own life, because Police officers can and do die in these circumstance too



None of this excuses Police brutality or is to deny the Police don't feck up, but I would suggest that rather than "institutional bias", most of those involved in these confrontations with the Police are almost always from disadvantaged and disrupted backgrounds, possibly with drugs or mental health issues thrown in.



That black people make up a larger number of the victims in percentage terms possibly reflects that community wise they suffer greater disadvantages both socially and financially, which may well itself be a result of prejudice in society at large, and therefore are more likely to come into contact with the Police. There is also the silence surrounding cultural issues with black families, the high cases of father absentee-ism, greater propensity to be involved in gang relayed crime and violence and the rap "gangsta" culture. But to suggest that the Police themselves have to ALWAYS bear the responsibility of societies faults is both simplistic and unfair, Some officers undoubtedly behave badly or fail to follow procedures, but that does not make them ALL at fault



It comes down in the end to whether you believe we are all "beautiful little souls" underneath, and the unfortunate are just spoiled by circumstances. Or you accept that, regardless of their skin colour, some people are basically decent. And some people, again regardless of their skin colour, are just shits and always will be. True, some of these people will have had less privilege than you, but that doesn't and never will be the only answer to all that's wrong about someone. Its obvious which side of that choice you would stand on, possibly because you've never had someone hold a knife to your throat or had to deal with the mess of humanity that these people cause. The Police do, and sometimes they feck it up, because you know what, THEY are human beings too, and they are not perfect. Unlike you  :roll:

[cromwell]

That's not really fair, mate. Leaving aside the government's botched responses, if the question is "do old people's lives matter?" then the evidence says yes. Many of us disagree with lockdown as a policy and we've said why repeatedly, but that hasn't stopped us observing it. The young, many of whom face paying a heavy price for this policy have also largely observed and supported it. To say old peoples lives "don't matter" to the vast majority is not true.

Not fair? I thought I was being very fair,I have accused no one individual on here nor the majority of the wider community of not being fair toward older people not least Barry or yourself or indeed caring about people in general nor do I resent those who oppose lockdown,I don't share that view,will argue against as and when but accept its a legitimate stand to make.



Barry posted  "black lives matter anyone uncomfortable with that?" He you or anyone is perfectly entitled to that opinion,he went on to ask do Chinese,disabled people's etc lives matter and whilst I agree that everyone's lives matter I was merely pointing out that it is just a campaign name as is hillsborough (which was rubbished)and as an analogy you could just as easily ask do old people's lives matter?



Clearly with some of this govts policy and in the wider world they didn't.





Should blacks in the US be treated universally as equals  and they were complaining about what has happened over the last few hundred years I'd say get a life but that's not the case is it?



They are more likely to be jailed,treated differently and targeted by law enforcement.....not by all but a significant number so why shouldn't they say black lives matter,should they change it to black lives matters as much as anyone else's would that satisfy,it's a campaign name.



It seems opposing a view makes people uncomfortable but it is a political forum,there is much I agree with what you Barry and others post but I reserve the right to oppose when I differ,and in this case I do.



If you look back over this and the other forum I said the yanks had the right to choose trump as president I opposed the demos here especially considering  some of the twats we've welcomed .



However when the Chinese are criticised by him and others for the HK crackdown and other human rights violations,Putin seeking to make himself president for life and a Trump says he respects peaceful protests then has those same cleared by tears gas and baton charges  so he can stand outside a church waving a bible then yes he is a bloody crackpot and so is anyone who supports him in that IMO.



If you can't disagree without being called not fair I'm at a loss what I'm doing here.



Lastly what is very unfair is you going on about Sunday dinner,I hadn't a clue what you were on about had to look back lost this whole post and had to type it all over again. :rant:  :-P  :-P

[Javert]

That's not really fair, mate. Leaving aside the government's botched responses, if the question is "do old people's lives matter?" then the evidence says yes. Many of us disagree with lockdown as a policy and we've said why repeatedly, but that hasn't stopped us observing it. The young, many of whom face paying a heavy price for this policy have also largely observed and supported it. To say old peoples lives "don't matter" to the vast majority is not true.



Leaving aside ridiculous analogies about Sunday dinners, the truth of what Barry said is also evident. If you separate us all and make a statement that one groups lives "matter", you'll inevitably cause some to add "more" to the end of the sentence. If the woman in the video Barry had posted had been killed, would we have half the posters on here wringing their hands about it in the way they are over this, or shrugging sympathetically as thousands of white people rioted and looted shops? You know the answer as well as I do.

The point is that it's been shown that the lives of those black people have mattered less, though hundreds of years of history, data, and evidence.



All western democratic countries with majority white populations are systematically and institutionally biased against minorities - this is very clear.



In the USA, especially the southern states, this extends to ongoing police brutality, most of which doesn't even make the news, targeted unfairly against non white minority groups, and the way society works preserves, maintains, and sometimes increases this discrepancy.



Unless one either questions the validity of this data, or thinks that white people are genetically superior to others and therefore this situation is normal, it's very difficult to justify this situation from any ethical or moral standpoint.

[DeppityDawg]

No it's not irrelevant,that is a campaign name and so is this,and no they haven't been trying to save old peoples lives in hospitals for months,many were abandoned in care homes in some countries and here there was a deliberate govt policy to pre book  care home places for old people and not admit them to hospital.

That's not really fair, mate. Leaving aside the government's botched responses, if the question is "do old people's lives matter?" then the evidence says yes. Many of us disagree with lockdown as a policy and we've said why repeatedly, but that hasn't stopped us observing it. The young, many of whom face paying a heavy price for this policy have also largely observed and supported it. To say old peoples lives "don't matter" to the vast majority is not true.



Leaving aside ridiculous analogies about Sunday dinners, the truth of what Barry said is also evident. If you separate us all and make a statement that one groups lives "matter", you'll inevitably cause some to add "more" to the end of the sentence. If the woman in the video Barry had posted had been killed, would we have half the posters on here wringing their hands about it in the way they are over this, or shrugging sympathetically as thousands of white people rioted and looted shops? You know the answer as well as I do.

[B0ycey]

But neither do I agree with violent protesters, despite what people are saying abou them being righteously angry etc..

Does a thousand signatures mean anything in a corrupt world?



I agree with the sentiment, but in reality dissent gets the message out better and actually achieves change. We wouldn't even know who Floyd was if it wasn't for the riots and everyone instead hugged each other in front of the White House. And Minneapolis would not doubt have swept the issue under the carpet ready for the next person to die unlawfully in police custody.



It maybe ugly, it may split minds, and it may even result in a few more rage tweets from Trump. But it will be the rioters who will force governors in Minneapolis hand and even get Trump himself to enact change in policy in regards to police brutality.

[Borchester]

Hands up (pun intended)if you think it ok to beat people and tear gas people protesting peacefully with their hands in the air,if you do you are as cracked as Trump is turning out to be IMO. :hattip

I think that most demos have the potential to turn into riots. I think that there is always the potential for a police riot. I think that the ex armed robber George Floyd will be canonised by the weekend. I think that most of society has sympathy with the untermensch but it does not like to see it take control of the streets, so I think that the riots in the US will help Donald Trump win the November Presidential election.

[Borg Refinery]

Hands up (pun intended)if you think it ok to beat people and tear gas people protesting peacefully with their hands in the air,if you do you are as cracked as Trump is turning out to be IMO. :hattip

No.



But neither do I agree with violent protesters, despite what people are saying abou them being righteously angry etc.. and the peaceful protesters are going to get baton-charged by police in Trump's America no matter what they do.

[cromwell]

Hands up (pun intended)if you think it ok to beat people and tear gas people protesting peacefully with their hands in the air,if you do you are as cracked as Trump is turning out to be IMO. :hattip

[cromwell]

Hillsborough is irrelevant. You said old people's lives apparently don't seem to matter. Which is rubbish, as we have been trying to save their lives in hospitals across the world for the last 5 months.



My assertion is "All lives matter".

No it's not irrelevant,that is a campaign name and so is this,and no they haven't been trying to save old peoples lives in hospitals for months,many were abandoned in care homes in some countries and here there was a deliberate govt policy to pre book  care home places for old people and not admit them to hospital.

[Barry]

Why would I be confused? You asked if anyone was uncomfortable with black lives matter,so I ask are you uncomfortable with the hillsborough or any other campaign name?

Hillsborough is irrelevant. You said old people's lives apparently don't seem to matter. Which is rubbish, as we have been trying to save their lives in hospitals across the world for the last 5 months.



My assertion is "All lives matter".

[cromwell]

I prefer "all lives matter", you seem a bit confused as to whether that is the case.

Why would I be confused? You asked if anyone was uncomfortable with black lives matter,so I ask are you uncomfortable with the hillsborough or any other campaign name?