Have to laugh at Argentina (no crying necessary unless its with laughter)

[Borg Refinery]

Fair enough.


You mean Kirchner's govt I presume. And I would say Peronism was not exactly Fascism, but more authoritarian nationalism, although it's close but not quite the same, in any case certainly a brutal dictator anyway.


I think Kirchner briefly meow'd about the Falklands then gave up after 5 minutes.

[Groo]

The history is all fine and dandy, but the central point is the map in the OP is their official internal map, the one they use to teach in schools etc.

They also have just this week issued a warning that they will fine any shipping company that fish in Falkland waters without an Argentine license (how they will enforce that with thier fleet of canoe's I don't know).

The last government signed a treaty with Britain to share information and help each other maintain fishing stocks in the area, the new government has of course thrown that out. 

[Groo]

(shrugs)


I'm not sure what the central point is, although the historical info is appreciated.


The fact remains that the Falklands IS inhabited by folks who chose to remain with us, and that's how it dhould stay. Personally, my view is that no further nat resource exploration should occur anywhere near the Falklands. And I certainly don't want Argentina ripping it to pieces just to make money.


But the fact remains, IF new resources ARE to be extracted (against the wishes of the islanders), then most legal dcholars appear to back the fact that AR have a claim to some share of them.


Argue with them not me. I don't want exploration or Argentine imperialists simply trying to get one over on us because they want some political capital.

The UN is quite clear that the remaining "colonies" must decide their own future which includes 3 possibilities, Independance, willing absorbtion to another state or by free association with whomever. they have repeatedly chosen the latter.

At the end of the WW2 the UN requested a list of remaining colonies to assist them in gaining independance. Britain, maybe through guilt, listed all remaining territories, other Countries didn't, Spain still administers land outside of Spain, not listed, France made them part of France, Russia was actively expanding at this time.

I feel sorry for the normal Argentine, at the turn of the 20th Century they were on the verge of becoming a World power, their GDP was something like 7th in the World. Britain was its greatest ally, helped build its infrastructure. Then the recession in the 1930's saw the rise of Fascism. Peron took control and wanted an Enemy, Britain was it and the Malvina's cause was invented.

He changed how they taught history and so it remains to this day, from kindergarden they are taught how the nasty English stole their beloved Falklands, there are kids books showing the English as Pirates or Monsters (I say English as they forget that the Britain exists). In all this time they have been plagued by Junta's and goverments that rob them blind.

The Malvina's cause is always a great diversion, thats why they won't consider the ICJ to resolve it.

[Borg Refinery]

(shrugs)


I'm not sure what the central point is, although the historical info is appreciated.


The fact remains that the Falklands IS inhabited by folks who chose to remain with us, and that's how it dhould stay. Personally, my view is that no further nat resource exploration should occur anywhere near the Falklands. And I certainly don't want Argentina ripping it to pieces just to make money.


But the fact remains, IF new resources ARE to be extracted (against the wishes of the islanders), then most legal dcholars appear to back the fact that AR have a claim to some share of them.


Argue with them not me. I don't want exploration or Argentine imperialists simply trying to get one over on us because they want some political capital.

[Groo]

"In 1816, Argentina declared its independence from Spain and in 1820 proclaimed its sovereignty over the Falklands. The Argentines built a fort on East Falkland, but in 1832 it was destroyed by the USS Lexington in retaliation for the seizure of U.S. seal ships in the area. In 1833, a British force expelled the remaining Argentine officials and began a military occupation. In 1841, a British lieutenant governor was appointed, and by the 1880s a British community of some 1,800 people on the islands was self-supporting. In 1892, the wind-blown Falkland Islands were collectively granted colonial status."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.history.com/.amp/this-day-in-history/falkland-islands-war-ends

haha,just read the rest of it.

Argentina built no fort. A man named Vernet started a business on the Islands and used the old Spanish base Soledad.

Again more complex. He gained permission from the UP to develop a business there which failed. Then Britain recognised the UP and sent a diplomat there. Vernet realising that Britain still claimed the islands played both sides and asked permission from both. When he asked the UP for more protection and authority because he wanted to license and control the whalers and fishermen who worked around the Islands, they made him governor. this was 1829, Britain protested this as Britian saw it as British Islands.

Vernet under his new guise captured 3 American fishing ships. One of the ships escaped.the reponse to this was America sending a warship, which destroyed any weapons on the Island and forced most settlers off. The other thing they did was complain to Britain for allowing pirates to live on the Island.

This was taken as a warning to Britain that the US may step in.

With the announcement of the garrison, British protest and subsequent removal of the garrison, Britain decided to make an annual visit to the Islands to make sure the Argentinians didn't return.

There was no military occupation. If there was there would not have been a rebelion by Rivero, who murdered Vernet's employees for not paying them with silver as the Captain of the British ship promised them when persuading them to stay.

In 1840 Britain officially created a colony there.

[Groo]

"In 1816, Argentina declared its independence from Spain and in 1820 proclaimed its sovereignty over the Falklands. The Argentines built a fort on East Falkland, but in 1832 it was destroyed by the USS Lexington in retaliation for the seizure of U.S. seal ships in the area. In 1833, a British force expelled the remaining Argentine officials and began a military occupation. In 1841, a British lieutenant governor was appointed, and by the 1880s a British community of some 1,800 people on the islands was self-supporting. In 1892, the wind-blown Falkland Islands were collectively granted colonial status."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.history.com/.amp/this-day-in-history/falkland-islands-war-ends

Look a little closer to that "in 1820 proclaimed its sovereignty over the Falklands" line. 

Yes a claim was made in 1820 by an American mercanary named Jewett who had been put in charge of a Private ship and was awarded a letter of marque (which effectively distinguished the holder as different to a pirate who would be hung if caught). With this authority from UP he could attack Spanish merchant ships.

After a few months at sea and not finding any ships, he suffered an attempted mutiny, which he put down and hung the leaders. He then came across a Portuguese ship which he attacked and captured.

He then suffered hostile weather in which he lost the Portuguese ship he was towing and limped into the Falklands with more than half his remaining crew sick and a ship that was damaged.

During this stay (unsure how long) he sent letters to all the ship captains there (quite a few apparently) claiming the Islands for the United Provinces.

One of the Captains there was Wendell the British explorer, who went to see him. He wrote up in his log about the meeting and claimed Jewett was afraid of his men and slept witha loaded pistol under his pillow. His claim he felt was made because his ship needed repair and a French ship had floundered in the port and he wanted to rob it of parts he needed.

The United Provinces knew nothing of this claim and when he returned to Buenos Aires he produced a 13 page report documenting his voyage (its in the Argentine archives), he gave detail of the mutiny and the Portuguese ship but made no mention of the claim.

The Captain of an American fishing boat recieved one of these letters, he gave it to his local newspaper in Salem, who printed it. A copy of this made its way to Britain and the Times printed it (you'll see copies of it showing it as front page news on various websites by Argentine's supporting the cause, it was actually hidden deep inside the paper, a small column). This made its way to Spain and printed in a paper there which in turn made its way to Buenos Aires, which is how they found out about it two years later.

In the meantime Jewwett didn't like the United Provinces and moved North to Brazil, where he would later fight against the United Provinces. A man named Mason was given command of jewwett's ship. mason was captured and imprisoned by the Portuguese because of Jewwett's attack on their ship.

Quite often you see Argentines justifying their claim by listing Argentine governors, that list contains Jewwett and Mason (the latter never went near there).

The United Provinces was not recognised by any Country at the time, they were a revolting colonty. So no protest could be made. But before recognising them in 1825, Britain requested and got detail of territory they claimed sovereignty over. The Falklands was not in the reply.

[Nick]

"In 1816, Argentina declared its independence from Spain and in 1820 proclaimed its sovereignty over the Falklands. The Argentines built a fort on East Falkland, but in 1832 it was destroyed by the USS Lexington in retaliation for the seizure of U.S. seal ships in the area. In 1833, a British force expelled the remaining Argentine officials and began a military occupation. In 1841, a British lieutenant governor was appointed, and by the 1880s a British community of some 1,800 people on the islands was self-supporting. In 1892, the wind-blown Falkland Islands were collectively granted colonial status."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.history.com/.amp/this-day-in-history/falkland-islands-war-ends

I've just declared my self a Billionaire, does that mean I am one? No it doesn't.
The fact remains that Argentina didn't exist until the 1850's

[Borg Refinery]

"In 1816, Argentina declared its independence from Spain and in 1820 proclaimed its sovereignty over the Falklands. The Argentines built a fort on East Falkland, but in 1832 it was destroyed by the USS Lexington in retaliation for the seizure of U.S. seal ships in the area. In 1833, a British force expelled the remaining Argentine officials and began a military occupation. In 1841, a British lieutenant governor was appointed, and by the 1880s a British community of some 1,800 people on the islands was self-supporting. In 1892, the wind-blown Falkland Islands were collectively granted colonial status."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.history.com/.amp/this-day-in-history/falkland-islands-war-ends

[Groo]

Well, the last Argentine presence was a military garrison in 1833

Not sure how that is possible seeing as Argentina didn't exist until the 1850's

and it didn't include Buenos Aires at the start, they wanted to be a separate state. From 1810's to 1830's, they lost land to what became Uruguay, Bolivia and Paraguay. But after that gained land by moving South, stealing land from Chile on the way while Chile was fighting wars in the North.

[Nick]

Well, the last Argentine presence was a military garrison in 1833

Not sure how that is possible seeing as Argentina didn't exist until the 1850's

[Groo]

Well, the last Argentine presence was a military garrison in 1833. I guess technically it ought to be Argentine, but the Islanders don't want to be part of Argentina - and seeing as they've been there for nearly 200 years - and the only people they displaced were a military garrison which was only sent there for a few years in the 1820's and 30's, I feel they are not unreasonable in wanting to stay. The Argentinian claim is probably due to posturing when they've a political crisis.


...The only reason they'd want it is because of purported natural resources on & around the islands, and due to strategic positions; FWIW I agree they should be shared, but I don't believe the Falklanders should be removed or ruled over in any way, when they didn't 'colonize' anyone and simply displaced a military garrison.

Not 1820's and 1830's, but actually arrived two months before they were asked to leave.

[Groo]

The problem Argentina have is that Argentina didn't even exist as a country when the Falklands were given to us by Spain. For me that gives them zero rights to the place.

Spain never gave it us. An attempt at a quick history below

The history is complex, Spain , claimed they belong to them based on the Treaty of Tordesillas which was a treaty purley between Spain and Portugal where they ammended the line created by the Pope Borgia which divided the whole unknown World between Spain and Portugal.

Spain were too busy with gold and silver on the mainland to even bother with the Falklands, they didn't even know exactly where they were until a Frenchman made a claim on behalf of France. Spain themselves ventured no further South than about 100km South of Buenos Aires. Most of their activity was in Peru and Mexico where the riches were.

The English made the first claim in the 1590's, the British were the first to step foot on them and repeat the claim in the 1690's and intended to make a refuelling stop for the Pacific bound ships in the mid 1700's.

Then 3 further claims with settlement were made in 1764, 1765 and 1766. First the French made of settlers displaced from Canada, then finally the Britsh in 1765 (neither knew of the others presence at first) and finally due to family connections and pacts between the French and Spanish royalty, the Spanish forced the French to give up their claim and the Spanish took over the French settlement.

The Spanish then forced the British off and we nearly went to war, the Spanish backed down when it became plain that the French would not back them up. The Spanish then returned the British settlement and both put up with each other, an Island each.

The British left when the American colonies started revolting but left the accepted markings of sovereignty at the time stating they would return. The Spanish did similar around 1810 when their colonies started revolting.

In 1825 Britain became the first to recognise Argentina (United Provinces as they were called), before which Britain wanted to know the extent of their claim, the reply was a detailed report of all territory and it did not include the Falklands.

The UP made its first act of sovereignty of the Falklands in 1829, Britain objected as Britain still held its previous claim. The UP then announced it was sending a garrison to the islands in 1832, again Britain protested (the UP responded to neither). In November 1832 the garrison arrived, by December it had revolted and murdered the officer in charge, a mutiny put down with the help of French and British merchant seamen.

In January 1833 the British ship Clio arrived which was sent after their announcement to make sure no intruders were there. They ordered the garrison to leave, but the settlers who had been there with British permission since 1826 was allowed to stay.

Spain still claimed their Island (the one with Stanley on) and all their South American colonies until the 1860's. They acknowledged British sovereignty before they acknowledged the colonies.

Argentina had signed a Treaty of Perfect Friendship with no outstanding issues with Britain 1n 1849, effectively giving up any claim.

They say 300 miles from Falklands, but until the 1860's they were 1000's of miles away.

At the end of the day, history is history, today the people who live there make the decisions with the right of self determination.

[Borg Refinery]

I just read there were some native 'settlers' on the Falklands before our 'settlement' of it but..


Contemporary accounts written by [/size]Charles Darwin[/color] and [/font][/color][/size]Robert FitzRoy[/font][/size][/color], captain of the HMS Beagle, suggest however that some settlers of various nationality who had been living there were actually encouraged to stay. So it doesn't appear to be true that whole of the existing settlement was uprooted and replaced with an imported British population, as many Argentinians believe.[/font][/color]
[/color][/size][/size]-C4 factcheck

[Borg Refinery]

We had a holiday in May 1982 during the Falklands War. Spain were very much on Argentina's side. We then sank the Belgrano. That didn't go down well so for the rest of our holiday we felt as welcome as a fart in a spacesuit. 

I read an article from the 80's..grauniad I think, where they interviewed spaniards about brits over there, even before the belgrano I think you were even less welcome than what you describe as being.

[Streetwalker]

They have dropped the 'Malvinas' story  . No further distraction from debt crisis , foreign policy or Corona is required .

Messi is back in action scoring for Barcelona ....All is well with the world .