To the surprise of no-one...tracking app changes

[Nick]

Dont agree. I see you largely ignored my point about 6 months in and you havent laid a glove on johnson over coronavirus.

If there was an election tomorrow , starmer and his party wouldnt win.A few shallow polls on the public thinking the uk government havent handled covid 19 well , and a small starmer bounce ( like corbyn had ) is meaningless at this stage. Your problem is how to turn polls into results and governance , and starmer and labour have little chance in gaining a majority to get into power even if that chance was on the horizon.

As you've said Thomas, Starmer is in the honeymoon period and will garner a certain amount of votes but the corbynite (under 30's) voters will be sent into confusion again. Those fantasising over PM Starmer are deluded.

So the excuse of  FTPA is a red herring. Just as corbynism was a red herring for the massive defeat you suffered in december.

No one is suggesting johnson is bullet proof. The SNP proved that in scotland where we humped him in december  . However you arent listening to the public  ,have misjudged thier mood consistently over the last five years , and are stuck in your own bubble while you keep trying to pick up mud to throw at johnson and hope it sticks while you fail to address the massive underlying problems you have to maintain the status quo.
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Labour has that many factions that it is constantly fighting a civil war within it's self. R.L.B get's the boot and the Corbynites openly criticise the Blairites, how are the members supposed to vote for a party that is that polarised? Excluding Brexit the Conservatives don't have this, they pretty much all sing from the same song sheet.

[Borchester]

If the people of Scotland started to see Labour as a trustworthy party that would be a disaster for the SNP

But they don't, which is why they voted SNP.

Not a bad lad Javert, but he tends to be a couple of days behind everyone else.

[BeElBeeBub]

The vast majority of the 62 nations that were part of the empire werent given an indy ref , they took independence.

The only way Scotland is going independent is via a managed departure.

A unilateral declaration of independence ain't going to fly.

Well the funny thing for me is you still think the union will exist in 2030. As is said beely , you are in a bubble of your own making and can't see the wood for the trees.

You're in a bubble if you think Scotland is going to be indepen

You have never supported this government on any issue , and the fact you are even trying to sell this shite really does show beyond anything you are so far up your own arse its unreal.

Nope, unsupported their initial moves. 

I started to lose confidence around Cheltenham.  The pub closure debacle knocked a bit more and by the time we (finally) locked down I was back to square 1.

[Thomas]

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Thomas, you keep replying to comments about government incompetence with this type of comment and saying that because we don't have any chance of bringing down the government any time soon, we are wasting our time.

Well you crack on then javert , and keep wasting your time. Im certainly not stopping you , and im sure beelbeeb can reply for himself and doesnt need you to hold his hand in the process.

We should also keep in mind of course that very strong independence supporters like yourself, and the SNP, have a very strong vested interest in hammering Labour.  You don't need to hammer the Tories because they are zero threat in Scotland.  If the people of Scotland started to see Labour as a trustworthy party that would be a disaster for the SNP because from a pure underlying policy point of view they are not that far apart, other than on the issue of independence.  Therefore it's not surprising that almost every post you make is attacking the Labour party as they are a threat to your main and only goal which is to achieve Scottish Independence.

No secret is safe with you on the prowl is it javert?



Where would we be without you keeping us straight and ferreting out highly confidential information?

[Javert]

you havent laid a glove on him for the reasons i have given previously.

Thomas, you keep replying to comments about government incompetence with this type of comment and saying that because we don't have any chance of bringing down the government any time soon, we are wasting our time.

That's not how political opinions work - I argue for the things I agree with and against the things I disagree with.  Even if I lose every election for my whole life, I would still rather give my true opinions rather than switching to support a party I completely disagree with just because they always win.  Therefore I'm not really sure why you seem to think that we are wasting our time making these comments.  Neither me nor Beelbebub as far as I remember has said that we are trying to bring the government down or cause an early election.

That said, I'm not sure I agree that Boris Johnson hasn't been damaged by the recent events and various issues since he became Prime Minister.  As you point out, there are many people who support him purely and only because he will get Brexit done.  As such, once we have a no deal Brexit or whatever in December 31st, many of those people have no further reason to continue supporting him if they have decided he is totally incompetent in everything else apart from delivering a (bad) Brexit.

As such, in some ways I wouldn't be surprised if he tries to enginner a reason to delay or dilute Brexit, purely because he himself will figure out that as soon as Brexit is totally completed, many of his supporters will desert him.

Now of course, this may not make any difference to which party is in power as people may just carry on voting Conservative when they change their leader to someone else.

We should also keep in mind of course that very strong independence supporters like yourself, and the SNP, have a very strong vested interest in hammering Labour.  You don't need to hammer the Tories because they are zero threat in Scotland.  If the people of Scotland started to see Labour as a trustworthy party that would be a disaster for the SNP because from a pure underlying policy point of view they are not that far apart, other than on the issue of independence.  Therefore it's not surprising that almost every post you make is attacking the Labour party as they are a threat to your main and only goal which is to achieve Scottish Independence.

Also FYI I'm not a natural Labour supporter and definitely not hard left - I have voted Labour quite a few times for tactical reasons but my natural policy home is the Lib Dems usually.

[Thomas]

nobody, I just hoped basic human decent woukd prevail.  More fool me.

Well you said it....more fool you.

as I pointed out, I was initially supportive of the government approach.  My support faded as their incompetence and lying started to become apparent.
It's not a case of makkng political capital out of it.

If they had handled it competently, impressed me with their organisation, attention to detail, transparency etc then I would applaud that even whilst arguing brexit was bad idea. To be fair, if that had achieved all the above it would have also allayed my fears that brexit will be a shambles because they lack competence, attention to detail and transparency.

However, they've blown it.

You have never supported this government on any issue , and the fact you are even trying to sell this shite really does show beyond anything you are so far up your own arse its unreal.

You may or may not be right that Johnson will manage to shrug off this debacle and voters won't care, but are you going to argue that they have performed well?

And where have i argued they have performed well over ccovid 19?

They have performed badly as i agreed earlier wae javert , yet as i keep saying , while you try and make political capital out of it  , and fail , you havent laid a glove on him for the reasons i have given previously.

You carry on though .

[Thomas]

your mistake is thinking I'm a labour man.

I'm not. I have never voted for labour in my life

Diversion. I havent ever once said or suggested this to you in the time we have crossed swords online.

However  , labour in England are the only credible way you are going to get the tories out of power at westminster , which is what you seem to want labour man or not , and so all my points still apply.

I did join the labour party so I could vote for Starmer in the leadership election because I felt the UK needed a functioning opposition not a doddering old ideologist (or their protégé)

Which backs up what i said above , where even you recognise ( wether you are a labour man or not) that the only alternative to the tories in england is labour.

Unused to vote conservative but the current party that bears their name isn't them.  They're basically UKIP

I dont really see what the relevance is ?

You dont support brexit , the tories jumped on the brexit bandwagon to win in 2015( promising a referendum) 2017 ( promising to get brexit done) and the same in 2019. You had three elections to win and stop brexit and the brexit referendum even happening  , you couldnt , and here we are , you calling the tories names yet again while being unable to do anything politically about them as you are in a minority and stand shouting at yourself ever day in a darkened room.

But a pandemic has no political leanings.

I didnt say it did ....but its something people can and do try and take advantage of as you have shown in this thread constantly moaning about johnsons handling of covid 19 but failing to lay a glove on johnson and stop brexit.

The only thing that counts is competence and the current government is woefully short on that.

again , you are being naive and not reading my post.

The only thng that counts as you have been told time and gain by your fellow english is getting brexit done. Thats why johnson is there.

He has been getting called an incompetent bumbling fool for the past 5 years or more since his days as london mayor , yet keeps winning time and again.

So what do you do?

Carry on calling him incompetent , this time over covid 19 , and expecting a different result. Its so childishly laughable its unreal.

Starmer is at least seeming to be competent which is a refreshing change after the last 4 years.

Who by?

You?

Being slightly above corbyn in the competence stage doesnt translate to electoral currency as i keep saying to you.

You may sit gleefully on the sidelines chuckling, but your beloved Scotland is going to be the one who cops it worse.

I would think so , but tell me ,  how does this do anything but help my politics while further damaging your beloved status quo?

This lot will never give you your Indy ref,

The vast majority of the 62 nations that were part of the empire werent given an indy ref , they took independence.

Ironically, the stronger the SNP the less the conservatives need to worry about appeasing Scotland 

Which is exactly what we want.

By the time 2030 there won't be much left of Scotland to be independent.

Well the funny thing for me is you still think the union will exist in 2030. As is said beely , you are in a bubble of your own making and cant see the wood for the trees.

[BeElBeeBub]

Who wrote that rule?

nobody, I just hoped basic human decent woukd prevail.  More fool me.

The coronavirus chaos is a ladder many sought to climb , except of course maybe the gullible anglo left.

Although saying that it hasnt stopped you trying ( and failing) to make political capital out of it for 6 months.

as I pointed out, I was initially supportive of the government approach.  My support faded as their incompetence and lying started to become apparent.
It's not a case of makkng political capital out of it.

If they had handled it competently, impressed me with their organisation, attention to detail, transparency etc then I would applaud that even whilst arguing brexit was bad idea. To be fair, if that had achieved all the above it would have also allayed my fears that brexit will be a shambles because they lack competence, attention to detail and transparency.

However, they've blown it.

You may or may not be right that Johnson will manage to shrug off this debacle and voters won't care, but are you going to argue that they have performed well?

[BeElBeeBub]

they are in no danger of being voted out in the near future because the FTPA means there is almost zero prospect of a GE until late 2024.

That being said, Johnson probably isn't as bullet proof as he thinks he is.  All these cock ups add up and even the ever dependable Telegraph and Mail have been starting to snipe at him.  Things often move fast when it comes to leadership of the conservatives.

Dont agree. I see you largely ignored my point about 6 months in and you havent laid a glove on johnson over coronavirus.

If there was an election tomorrow , starmer and his party wouldnt win.A few shallow polls on the public thinking the uk government havent handled covid 19 well , and a small starmer bounce ( like corbyn had ) is meaningless at this stage. Your problem is how to turn polls into results and governance , and starmer and labour have little chance in gaining a majority to get into power even if that chance was on the horizon.

So the excuse of  FTPA is a red herring. Just as corbynism was a red herring for the massive defeat you suffered in december.

No one is suggesting johnson is bullet proof. The SNP proved that in scotland where we humped him in december  in Scotland. However you arent listening to the public  ,have misjudged thier mood consistently over the last five years , and are stuck in your own bubble while you keep trying to pick up mud to throw at johnson and hope it sticks while you fail to address the massive underlying problems you have to maintain the status quo.

your mistake is thinking I'm a labour man.

I'm not. I have never voted for labour in my life

I did join the labour party so I could vote for Starmer in the leadership election because I felt the UK needed a functioning opposition not a doddering old ideologist (or their protégé)

Unused to vote conservative but the current party that bears their name isn't them.  They're basically UKIP

But a pandemic has no political leanings. The only thing that counts is competence and the current government is woefully short on that.

Starmer is at least seeming to be competent which is a refreshing change after the last 4 years.

You may sit gleefully on the sidelines chuckling, but your beloved Scotland is going to be the one who cops it worse.  This lot will never give you your Indy ref, and if they get in again in 2024 it's another 5 years of a UKIP government that will screw Scotland even harder as without a functioning labour opposition they have zero need of Scottish votes.

Ironically, the stronger the SNP the less the conservatives need to worry about appeasing Scotland 

By the time 2030 there won't be much left of Scotland to be independent.

[Thomas]

While starmer and his fellow blairites blamed corbyn and the hard left for their walloping in december , many in his own party blamed starmer for labours defeat in supporting a second referendum on brexit.

At the same time , starmer demands that there is no second scottish indy ref , alienating 43% of the few people who bothered to vote labour in scotland in december.

   Steve Howell, Labour's former deputy director of strategy, said Sir Keir sometimes "sidelined" Mr Corbyn's office in his pursuit of a more pro-EU position.

"It was clever of him to put himself at the helm of the Remainer camp, it was good for his leadership ambitions, but it was disastrous electorally," he added. "It lost us the 2019 election."

Meanwhile beely says johnson is a naughty boy over covid 19 and is pinning his hopes on another blairite london centric out of touch labour leader to win in any future election.

[Thomas]

Election 2019: New leader not enough to win again, Labour warned

And the commissioners of the review agreed it would "be a mistake to believe that a different leader, with Brexit no longer the defining issue, would in itself be sufficient to change Labour's electoral fortunes".

The organisation, which describes itself as a network of activists from all Labour traditions, surveyed 11,000 members, held in-depth interviews with former MPs and party candidates, and spoke to polling experts and academics.

The report paints a portrait of a party riven by "factionalism", "internal arguments" and "division".

But it issues a stark warning to those who believe that a change in both the party leadership and in the political landscape will necessarily bring Labour much closer to power.

The report says: "It would be a mistake to believe that a different leader, with Brexit no longer the defining issue, would in itself be sufficient to change Labour's electoral fortunes."

And this is perhaps the true value of the report for the new leadership - it serves as both a reality check for activists and an opportunity for the new regime to argue that a break for the past is necessary.

It declares that Labour has "a mountain to climb" - and the authors are clearly thinking of K2 rather than a Scottish munro.

Other issues highlighted in the report included:

    Labour losing all types of voters compared with the 2017 election, but losing support amongst working class communities the most
    The loss of voters "stretched back over two decades", especially with those who ended up voting Leave in the 2016 EU referendum
    The party "suffered a meltdown" in Scotland over Brexit, the leadership and Labour's position on a second independence referendum
    Labour "lost the online campaign", spending too much time talking to its own members, rather than persuading other voters to support them.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53096233

[Thomas]

After all they may be lying shysters but surely even they would realise this pandemic transcends petty politics...right?

Who wrote that rule?

The coronavirus chaos is a ladder many sought to climb , except of course maybe the gullible anglo left.

Although saying that it hasnt stopped you trying ( and failing) to make political capital out of it for 6 months.

So im no sure what you are talking about here.

[Thomas]

they are in no danger of being voted out in the near future because the FTPA means there is almost zero prospect of a GE until late 2024.

That being said, Johnson probably isn't as bullet proof as he thinks he is.  All these cock ups add up and even the ever dependable Telegraph and Mail have been starting to snipe at him.  Things often move fast when it comes to leadership of the conservatives.

Dont agree. I see you largely ignored my point about 6 months in and you havent laid a glove on johnson over coronavirus.

If there was an election tomorrow , starmer and his party wouldnt win.A few shallow polls on the public thinking the uk government havent handled covid 19 well , and a small starmer bounce ( like corbyn had ) is meaningless at this stage. Your problem is how to turn polls into results and governance , and starmer and labour have little chance in gaining a majority to get into power even if that chance was on the horizon.

So the excuse of  FTPA is a red herring. Just as corbynism was a red herring for the massive defeat you suffered in december.

No one is suggesting johnson is bullet proof. The SNP proved that in scotland where we humped him in december  . However you arent listening to the public  ,have misjudged thier mood consistently over the last five years , and are stuck in your own bubble while you keep trying to pick up mud to throw at johnson and hope it sticks while you fail to address the massive underlying problems you have to maintain the status quo.

[BeElBeeBub]

In general I agree, but the issue here is that it appears to me the app contract has been awarded using a corrupt process and I do not trust the government, nor the organisation that's developing the app.  What's more, they continued spending money hand over fist on this app even after they'd been told by almost all experts that it won't work.  Still, this is the same as Brexit I guess where experts are automatically wrong.  And yet.... they app still doesn't work and they have even now admitted that it doesn't work.

I absolutely agree.

The government handling of this has tainted track and trace, possibly fatally.


If the government hadn't screwed this up. Allowed the NHS to develop a "clean" app and T&T system free of any suspicion of data harvesting and that app had worked reasonably well (as in was easy to use, didn't screw your battery, didn't spam you with alerts etc etc) in think uptake would have been high. Especially as the NHS brand enjoys high levels of trust

Even I, who dislikes the current administration intensely, was prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt at the begining.

After all they may be lying shysters but surely even they would realise this pandemic transcends petty politics...right?

When they first appeared and said "we are science led and won't be doing stunts like school closures or lockdowns" I believed them.

When they said "we must time the lockdown right, not too early, not too late".  I thought "ok, the science bods are clever and advising the politicans, maybe there is something they see that I don't"

Over time, mistep after mistep, lie after lie, that inital trust evaporated. Now I am much less likely to do what the government says because I don't think they have our best interest at heart.

Take up of any app, no matter how private and effective, will be abysmal now.

Adherence to government guidelines will be low.

Why should somebody stay at home when they fancy a trip to the beach when Johnson's mates take trips across the country when ever they like?

[BeElBeeBub]

Sigh#

Please quote me where i have said this javert.Stop making things up and putting words in my mouth .

I fully agree with you the public think the uk government has not done a good job in handling covid 19.

The point im making it isnt enough to topple johnson and his government , nor are they in any danger of being voted out in the near future , hence my suggestion of picking your battles carefully.

Johnson wasnt elected in december 2019 because he was seen by the public as some sort of pandemic handling whizzkid , or some masterfull politician who would never make mistakes in government.

He was elected to get brexit done. Until the uk is fully out the eu , you wont touch him is my point.

they are in no danger of being voted out in the near future because the FTPA means there is almost zero prospect of a GE until late 2024.

That being said, Johnson probably isn't as bullet proof as he thinks he is.  All these cock ups add up and even the ever dependable Telegraph and Mail have been starting to snipe at him.  Things often move fast when it comes to leadership of the conservatives.