End the triple lock?

[srb7677]

I don't think we all should take a hit, it is the mega tax evaders and mega tax "avoiders," who should take a hit.

I strongly suspect the Tory government will make us all take a hit, whilst their tax evading and avoiding buddies get let off lightly. It is ever thus with the Tories. Expect the poorest to take a hammering again.

[papasmurf]

If we all end up having to take a hit, do you think pensioners alone should be exempt? And if not what suggestions do you have as to their possible contributions?

I don't think we all should take a hit, it is the mega tax evaders and mega tax "avoiders," who should take a hit.

[srb7677]

Not at all, I have not and never will ever vote Tory.

To be fair I never actually accused you of doing so. I had no idea who you vote for and still don't beyond the fact you've just stated that it isn't the Tories.

But that was not the basis of my charge of self interest. The basis was your reluctance to do your bit by paying the same taxes as all other age groups because it would mean you personally paying a bit more.

If we all end up having to take a hit, do you think pensioners alone should be exempt? And if not what suggestions do you have as to their possible contributions?

[papasmurf]

Rather selfishly self-interested of you isn't it?

Not at all, I have not and never will ever vote Tory.

[srb7677]

Also can Bojo The Clown afford to lose millions of the Zimmer Frame Pilot vote?

Which is probably sadly why it may not happen. Because the Tories rely on the votes of relatively affluent retirees to shaft the working population that pays for it all. But we all have to pay somehow, Sunak has strongly hinted. Do you think pensioners - who are now statistically on average better off than working age groups already - should be entirely exempted again with only the long suffering workers bearing the entire burden?

Rather selfishly self-interested of you isn't it?

You have also spoken of increased costs for pensioners but you don't have kids to raise and clothe and feed and mostly no longer have mortgages to pay. And for those who don't work you don't even have travel to work expenses. So your total outgoings are often much lower than those of working age people. Until you need social care at any rate, which is a separate issue that needs addressing.

[papasmurf]

A working age person with the same income as you is paying that extra £430 per year anyway. Why should you be exempt when you can do your bit? We are all likely going to have to pay for the current government largesse. That should include everyone according to ability to pay, not just working age people.

NI is paid on earnings. The old and decrepit also have costs those younger don't have. Our so called free NHS cost me well over a £1000 last year.
Also can Bojo The Clown afford to lose millions of the Zimmer Frame Pilot vote?

[srb7677]

Why shouldn't you pay the same tax rates as the rest of us to do your bit? No one is suggesting you pay more than anyone else.

NI is paid on earned income, it is also more money than you seem to think.
You begin paying National Insurance once you earn more than £183 a week (2020-21).

The National Insurance rate you pay depends on how much you earn:

12% of your weekly earnings between £183 and £962 (2020-21)
2% of your weekly earnings above £962.

That would cost me £430 a year.

A working age person with the same income as you is paying that extra £430 per year anyway. Why should you be exempt when you can do your bit? We are all likely going to have to pay for the current government largesse. That should include everyone according to ability to pay, not just working age people.

[papasmurf]

Why shouldn't you pay the same tax rates as the rest of us to do your bit? No one is suggesting you pay more than anyone else.

NI is paid on earned income, it is also more money than you seem to think.
You begin paying National Insurance once you earn more than £183 a week (2020-21).

The National Insurance rate you pay depends on how much you earn:

12% of your weekly earnings between £183 and £962 (2020-21)
2% of your weekly earnings above £962.

That would cost me £430 a year.

[srb7677]

One way for pensioners to contribute would be for those with incomes large enough to pay taxes, to pay them at the same rate as the rest of the population, ie pay NI as well as income tax just like everybody else.

You know where you can stick that suggestion.

Why shouldn't you pay the same tax rates as the rest of us to do your bit? No one is suggesting you pay more than anyone else.

[papasmurf]

One way for pensioners to contribute would be for those with incomes large enough to pay taxes, to pay them at the same rate as the rest of the population, ie pay NI as well as income tax just like everybody else.

You know where you can stick that suggestion.

[srb7677]

There has been a lot said that the elderly have been saved at a cost to the youth. There have been rumblings that the triple lock for pensions is under discussion as being inappropriate at this particular time. The fear is that if Conservatives upset the older folk in the country and they will go out of power for ever.
I don't know so much. I for one, am in favour of the pensioners, including me, doing their bit to help the country get on it's feet not just after Covid 19 but also once we finally leave the EU, so perhaps this is the right time. There are many pensioners who struggle but as long as those in need have their extra help I see no reason not to chip in if we can.

Am I a lonely voice in the widerness?

One way for pensioners to contribute would be for those with incomes large enough to pay taxes, to pay them at the same rate as the rest of the population, ie pay NI as well as income tax just like everybody else. This would in no way impact the poorer pensioners who don't pay any tax. As for those who say that pensioners have already paid for their pensions, NI was never intended solely for that but also as a health service contribution. And pensioners often rely quite heavily on the health service, more than most. NI is in any case just another de facto income tax in practice.

[Javert]

Further, it's questionable whether the state pension should be paid at the same rate to those who already have large private pension provision, depending on the current economic conditions of the nation.

Am i reading this aright?

Are you seriously arguing that folk who pay into a pension system , in this case the state pension , should get less out of it because they were more pragmatic in paying into other pension systems as well?

You have a strange sense of right and wrong.

Not only that , this principle of paying in but getting less out  while those who dont pay in get more out undermines the whole foundation that western society is built upon. You are simply punishing people who are being sensible with their money while rewarding those who arent .

It's a valid argument.  There is no such thing as the state pension that people pay into and there is a separate account or pot that they build up.  It's simply a policy of government to pay pensions to everybody no matter how much money they have.  You can tell this by the reverse fact that people who have been unemployed for all or most of their life would still get a state pension.

To me, I'm happy for my NI contributions to be considered as a tax just like income tax, and to entitle me to healthcare, and to a pension IF I haven't made other provision for a much higher pension elsewhere.

Of course, if this was brought in, it would have to be brought in over many years so that people had sufficient time to plan for it.

Why should a millionaire with 6 houses be able to claim the state pension?

Or to reverse it if I want to do it your way - why should a poor or disabled person who has paid in nothing into the state pension scheme get a pension at all?

This has already been trialled with child benefit - effectively, richer people are no longer allowed to claim child benefit (even though they have paid into the system the same as everyone else).

Personally I'd rather the limited taxpayer handouts, whether pensions or benefits or whatever, goes to the people that most need it and not people who already have plenty.

[Javert]

Otherwise the effects of the pandemic economic actions will result in pensioners getting an forecast 18% increase next year

Frankly that is nonsense. There would need to be an 18% increase in the CPI for that to happen.

https://www.economicsonline.co.uk/Managing_the_economy/Measuring_inflation.html#:~:text=The%20CPI,the%20%27average%27%20UK%20household.

Not according to the FT and several other newspapers - they claim that the way the pension amount is calculated takes into account wage rises as part of the inflation figure, and that this will result in a massive pension increase next April if the normal rules are applied. 

[Borchester]

I don't understand the point.

If your Old Age Pension plus  a private pension takes you over the tax threshold you pay tax. (I just had to pay £250 tax because of that.)

Gosh so you're rich! 

Pah. I pay about £600. Frankly I am doing so well I am surprised that I bother with you poor folk 

Per month?   

Well no. Per year actually. But that is still twice as much as Pappy so I feel that I occupy the moral high ground. After all, the Good Lord may have said that the poor are always with us, but He never said why.

[papasmurf]

Pah. I pay about £600. Frankly I am doing so well I am surprised that I bother with you poor folk 

My wife has just paid out £3000 tax on a pension. (Not what it appears to be, it was very complex.)