Boris offers passports to HK citizens

[papasmurf]

There are issues but that's because they are still emerging from total dictatorship, things have improved dramatically over the last 20 years.

The Chinese government is tackling poverty issues in a far more pragmatic way, than the UK is. But I doubt the current UK government and especially the DWP would go down the same road because of the amount of staff needed to carry out the number of on site inspections and minute detail of information gathering.

Some background:-
https://isdp.eu/publication/chinas-anti-poverty-efforts-problems-and-progress/

[Nick]

a state that we have little in common with.

It's only a problem, because you seem to need it to be. Neither is wrong .

You stated that we had little in common with the Chinese state, no caveats included. The statement is only true when you include your proviso's.

I don't need a problem to exist, I'm not going around saying that China are the devil and we should distance our selves from them and reduce our trade with them. I've been there dozens of times and know the country warts an all. There are issues but that's because they are still emerging from total dictatorship, things have improved dramatically over the last 20 years.

[Good old]

a state that we have little in common with.

It's only a problem, because you seem to need it to be. Neither is wrong .

[Nick]

And in that respect we have little in common with China.

2 totally different statements, your first being wrong.

[Good old]

The here and now , should be telling us to stop being so overly friendly ,and dependent on a state that we have little in common with.

And how many times have you been to China?

Why do you ask?  Would China,s abominable  record on human rights , and constant repression of it's citizens thoughts and deeds improve if I went there more often? We may well have things in common with the Chinese people. Very little with the state, and it was the state commented on.

The only thing you know about China is what you are told by the media, you don't know whether it is true or not.
That is my point.

What's that Nick I have to have been to China.....Really?
Well I never visited Nazi Germany (wasn't born) so I am not qualified to comment by that logic and before you or Sampan get the hump I'm not making a direct comparison with China and the Hitler years but I don't need to have visited China to know all is not sweetness and light,haven't been to N Korea either but it sure ain't paradise....unless youknow otherwise?

I was questioning the point that we have very few similarities to the Chinese state. We have many similarities, obviously not the dictatorial aspect but that is only one aspect of the country.

Nick, the point you are  making ,is in fact pointless. The whole human race can draw on similarities. Various states ,even the very worst , run most of their affairs in ways similar to other nations. That can not hide or excuse  the bits which would be unacceptable in a democracy such as ours. And in that respect we have little in common with China.

[Sampanviking]

So back to topic - the whole matter of offering potential citizenship to a certain class of HK passport holders rests on two accusations levied by Western political leaders
1) That the New Hong Kong National Security Law is in violation of the One Country Two Systems Constitution as laid out in the basic law.
2) That the new Honk Kong National Security Law is a draconian instrument.

So to respond
1) As previously posted, the HKNSL appears perfectly in line with the provisions of Article 23, Article 18 - Annex 3. If anyone has any idea as to which article the Security Law Violates and how it violates it, then please do come and share as I really do want to know.

2) How does the HKNSL stack up in severity against similar instruments in other countries, especially Western Liberal Democracies?
I think Nathan Rich offers a clear perspective in his latest video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jdp2JviTDA&t=24s

So propaganda,except you'll say it isn't and it's just the west with their propaganda against China lying all about them.

How exactly does a video of someone reading chapter and verse from the text of the US National Security Laws count as propaganda?

[Nick]

The here and now , should be telling us to stop being so overly friendly ,and dependent on a state that we have little in common with.

And how many times have you been to China?

Why do you ask?  Would China,s abominable  record on human rights , and constant repression of it's citizens thoughts and deeds improve if I went there more often? We may well have things in common with the Chinese people. Very little with the state, and it was the state commented on.

The only thing you know about China is what you are told by the media, you don't know whether it is true or not.
That is my point.

What's that Nick I have to have been to China.....Really?
Well I never visited Nazi Germany (wasn't born) so I am not qualified to comment by that logic and before you or Sampan get the hump I'm not making a direct comparison with China and the Hitler years but I don't need to have visited China to know all is not sweetness and light,haven't been to N Korea either but it sure ain't paradise....unless youknow otherwise?

I was questioning the point that we have very few similarities to the Chinese state. We have many similarities, obviously not the dictatorial aspect but that is only one aspect of the country.

[cromwell]

The here and now , should be telling us to stop being so overly friendly ,and dependent on a state that we have little in common with.

And how many times have you been to China?

Why do you ask?  Would China,s abominable  record on human rights , and constant repression of it's citizens thoughts and deeds improve if I went there more often? We may well have things in common with the Chinese people. Very little with the state, and it was the state commented on.

The only thing you know about China is what you are told by the media, you don't know whether it is true or not.
That is my point.

What's that Nick I have to have been to China.....Really?
Well I never visited Nazi Germany (wasn't born) so I am not qualified to comment by that logic and before you or Sampan get the hump I'm not making a direct comparison with China and the Hitler years but I don't need to have visited China to know all is not sweetness and light,haven't been to N Korea either but it sure ain't paradise....unless youknow otherwise?

[cromwell]

So back to topic - the whole matter of offering potential citizenship to a certain class of HK passport holders rests on two accusations levied by Western political leaders
1) That the New Hong Kong National Security Law is in violation of the One Country Two Systems Constitution as laid out in the basic law.
2) That the new Honk Kong National Security Law is a draconian instrument.

So to respond
1) As previously posted, the HKNSL appears perfectly in line with the provisions of Article 23, Article 18 - Annex 3. If anyone has any idea as to which article the Security Law Violates and how it violates it, then please do come and share as I really do want to know.

2) How does the HKNSL stack up in severity against similar instruments in other countries, especially Western Liberal Democracies?
I think Nathan Rich offers a clear perspective in his latest video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jdp2JviTDA&t=24s

So propaganda,except you'll say it isn't and it's just the west with their propaganda against China lying all about them.

[Good old]

The only thing you know about China is what you are told by the media, you don't know whether it is true or not.
That is my point.

What we are told in the media about many countries seem at odds with the freely available videos of daily life in them on Youtube.

Yes , easy access. You could call it balance. Life is never all bad anywhere. Of course it would be of no use  if it projected the extremes that their government will go to have everyone on the exact same page.

[Good old]

The here and now , should be telling us to stop being so overly friendly ,and dependent on a state that we have little in common with.

And how many times have you been to China?

Why do you ask?  Would China,s abominable  record on human rights , and constant repression of it's citizens thoughts and deeds improve if I went there more often? We may well have things in common with the Chinese people. Very little with the state, and it was the state commented on.

The only thing you know about China is what you are told by the media, you don't know whether it is true or not.
That is my point.

And you shouldn't presuppose  what I actually know. Never the less I get the point. But  come off it Nick, are you suggesting that what we know about the Chinese ,state is nothing more than  a figment of our imaginations .? The  thousand,s of people demonstrating and risking their lives in Hong Kong , are totally mistaken,  in fearing the rule of Chinese law I suppose. ? There is no question most western media has an axe to grind where China, is concerned, maybe that's why when they are allowed into the place , they find themselves constantly
accompanied by plain clothed police, who interfere with anything they don't like. I don't have to rely on the media to know that to be true, any more than knowing the Chinese state used tanks on students not so long ago.

[papasmurf]

The only thing you know about China is what you are told by the media, you don't know whether it is true or not.
That is my point.

What we are told in the media about many countries seem at odds with the freely available videos of daily life in them on Youtube.

[Nick]

The here and now , should be telling us to stop being so overly friendly ,and dependent on a state that we have little in common with.

And how many times have you been to China?

Why do you ask?  Would China,s abominable  record on human rights , and constant repression of it's citizens thoughts and deeds improve if I went there more often? We may well have things in common with the Chinese people. Very little with the state, and it was the state commented on.

The only thing you know about China is what you are told by the media, you don't know whether it is true or not.
That is my point.

[Good old]

The here and now , should be telling us to stop being so overly friendly ,and dependent on a state that we have little in common with.

And how many times have you been to China?

Why do you ask?  Would China,s abominable  record on human rights , and constant repression of it's citizens thoughts and deeds improve if I went there more often? We may well have things in common with the Chinese people. Very little with the state, and it was the state commented on.

[Sampanviking]

So back to topic - the whole matter of offering potential citizenship to a certain class of HK passport holders rests on two accusations levied by Western political leaders
1) That the New Hong Kong National Security Law is in violation of the One Country Two Systems Constitution as laid out in the basic law.
2) That the new Honk Kong National Security Law is a draconian instrument.

So to respond
1) As previously posted, the HKNSL appears perfectly in line with the provisions of Article 23, Article 18 - Annex 3. If anyone has any idea as to which article the Security Law Violates and how it violates it, then please do come and share as I really do want to know.

2) How does the HKNSL stack up in severity against similar instruments in other countries, especially Western Liberal Democracies?
I think Nathan Rich offers a clear perspective in his latest video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jdp2JviTDA&t=24s