General Brexit discussion thread

[Baff]

It's not me who's supporting the govt (or the opposition) is it? 🤔



Plus, many polls now say that remain is in the lead and Boris's ratings have fallen steeply... very steeply..against that idiot Starmer..

I have no idea who you are supporting.

It seems to me that you are supporting foreign governments and foreign countries.

Presumably you prefer them to our own.





Remain?

We have left the EU.

We were polled. We decided. We have enacted that decision.

[Thomas]

Plus, many polls now say that remain is in the lead and Boris's ratings have fallen steeply... very steeply..against that idiot Starmer..

Dont worry we will help keep starmer out and boris in...... ::

Scottish voting intentions for the next UK general election (Scot Goes Pop / Panelbase poll, 1st-5th June 2020):



SNP 51% (+1)

Conservatives 21% (-5)

Labour 19% (+2)

Liberal Democrats 6% (+1)

Greens 2% (n/c)



Seats projection: SNP 58 (+10), Labour 1 (n/c)

[/b]



One labour seat for starmer the posh blairite in scotland. How does that work out for westminster equations to get the tories out of power in your country?



I dont think bojo has much to worry about.........best part 4 half years to go and starmer the clown in oppostion.



I think labour will be lucky to take 230 seats next time , but thats just me. :thup:

[Borg Refinery]

Make as many excuses for them as you like.

I won't be doing so.



They have a job to do.

If they are unable to, we will remove them.

As many times as it takes.



If you wish to accept bad leadership, I still don't.

If "we" doesn't include you, so be it.





Not only do i not trust these people, I don't want to simultaneously pay even more for a second tier of government that I trust even less and can't deselect.





In the end, they did what they were told and left the EU.

That is a win for democracy.



Don't underestimate us. If we need to, we will do it again and again and again.

They will accept our rule or go the way of Ghadaffi.

It's not me who's supporting the govt (or the opposition) is it? 🤔



Plus, many polls now say that remain is in the lead and Boris's ratings have fallen steeply... very steeply..against that idiot Starmer..

[Baff]

Make as many excuses for them as you like.

I won't be doing so.



They have a job to do.

If they are unable to, we will remove them.

As many times as it takes.



If you wish to accept bad leadership, I still don't.

If "we" doesn't include you, so be it.





Not only do i not trust these people, I don't want to simultaneously pay even more for a second tier of government that I trust even less and can't deselect.





In the end, they did what they were told and left the EU.

That is a win for democracy.



Don't underestimate us. If we need to, we will do it again and again and again.

They will accept our rule or go the way of Ghadaffi.

[Borg Refinery]

And when they do, we'll take that away from them too.

Along with their jobs.

And how will you do that?



And who is 'we'?



If you take everything they blame stuff on away, you'll be left with nothing, as almost all politicians blame everything & anything & anyone but themselves, new & old, but of course the good politicians who do accept responsibility get the sack by default don't they? Much as I hate Javid, he actually had some integrity.



Now the creepy billionaire is in that position. And you trust these folk? 🤔

[Baff]

And when they do, we'll take that away from them too.

Along with their jobs.





I'm not interested in government predictions.

Sorry.

A) they were designed with the intention of convinving us to remain, B) No predictions are worth spit.

C) The government is the very last place I will ever be looking for financial advice.

[Borg Refinery]

Hi Baff, rediscovered this old draft reply to you and fixed it up a bit. I think it was meant for a few pages back, but anyway:

WTO isn't the be all and end all for me.



Yes, Trump will be trying to push everyone around.

As will the EU, China, us and every other Tom Dick and Harry.

That's life in the big wide world.



There comes a point where you yourself are a big enough power to refuse anyone.

But you said yourself - smaller countries get pushed around by bigger ones hence why you dislike trade deals in general, on that we are in complete agreement.

As you can see with us currently refusing the EU, we have always been big enough to do this.

Our economy, like America's is significanlty less international trade dependent than most of the other big ones.

Domestic trade is the core of it.

It seems like Gove said they were on the verge of compromising everything - I posted about it in this Brexit section, have a look.



They seem to be saying anything - anything that will assuage criticism for now, from both sides.

Compare that to Germany's and you will see that they simply can't push us around as much as we can them.

Their trade is predominantly a luxury for us. ours is more of an essential to them.

Germany can't make enemies. It can't go out of fashion. Too much of it's economy is export reliant.

A big trade disruption might hurt us more than them. But more importantly, they could find it easier to find new export markets, cars are always in demand.



What are we 'making' and exporting of that calibre?

If Mercedes becomes synonymous with people you despise, it's done. Same for all their other brands and their economy collapses and famines ensue. They are weak because of their heavier dependencies on their export market.

We are stronger on the push you around power stakes tham most and resistent enough to even the biggest single market in the world to say "f**k off". Which we just did.

We'll see how it pans out, one minute they're conceding everything then they're fighting everyone...

The EU as an economic minus.



It's a trade bloc run to advantage 27 countries.

Meaning no single country can run their own trade to their own advantage.

With most of those countries our direct trade rivals, our direct competition, running our economy to benefit theirs is not a smart play.

Ok, but surely the countries from the eastern bloc have received significant advantages postentry; and have proven that it does benefit us all. Surely you accept that even the govt's own predictions (all of them) show a significantly worse economic outturn after NDBrexit?



Like I said - folks voted for it so I accept it. It's the will of the people, but IMHO it's not an act that's going to help us.



The fishing example and the Hungarian example show that we can pretty much do what we like in the EU, many people get away with breaking the rules, IIRC Germany had most infringements of rules & regs in 2019. They allow folks to bend the rules WITH negotiation.



..When you are on the outside of 'the family'; a '3rd country', then they treat you not-so-understandingly.

Secondly it is replication of existing bureacracy.

Paying even more for a second system of government that replicates the work of our existing government.

How so?



They coordinate and manage things across a wide variety of countries - standardization, regulation, integrating things. Imho yours is not a fair criticism.

We already pay one set of people to make trade deals, set standards, make employment laws. Manage migrations and all the rest.

..But we do not coordinate this across borders and liase, and lobby WITH the collective power of the EU.

Thirdly it is the wierdest FTA I have ever heard of. Unlike everry otherFTA ever, and since we have to pay for access to it. it isn;t technically a fre trade deal at all. It is ember ship to a trade bloc

Typically we make FTA's with complimentary economies, not competitive ones.



Example. Jamaica produces rum and banana's.

We do not. We priduce cars and farm machinery, they do not,

We do not compete with each other. We both want to buy eachothers goods. Free trade deal please.

I think the EU has a FTA with Jamaica.

A free trade deal with countries who out produce our industry, Germany for example, just means our car industry will lose domestic sales. This is bad. No free trade deal please.

I think trading at full tariff rates, with a country as interlinked with us as Germany is  - is going to hurt both of our economies tbh.

Dropping import duties means our industry moves to cheaper places. Eastern Europe.

True.. but what do we really make to export anymore?



...Without a sudden sustained investment in exporting industry, we are toast. The exports aren't there.

I could just go on for hours on all the economic negatives.



Big business can afford to bribe the EU, small business cannot.

True, but that's the same around the world; and the situation is the same in the UK with the govt - and will be so after Brexit.



"Big business can afford to comply with ever changing regulations, small business cannot."



As above.

Most of our trade is done outside of the EU.

The EU's external tariffs drive up more prices for the consumer than the internal free trade saves them.

What evidence do you base this on?

With most of our commerce domestic in nature it makes no sense to apply expensive EU compliance rules to the 80 or 90% of the economy that gets no benefit from it.

Doesn't it increase standards? Do you trust folk like Rees Mogg to keep the same?

We have a trade deficit. We buy their goods, but they don't reciprocate that trade.

This is a wealth transfer from us to them. And the EU free trade deal doesn't cover our primary expiort, finanscial services,but it does cover theirs. Goods.

The trade deficit is enshrined in the deal.

Taken in aggregate our trade with the EU is loss making. We would be richer if we stopped trading with the EU entirely.

That is how bad it is for us economically. We would be richer if we ceased all economic activitiy with the EU.

(Although our shops shleves would have less choice).

What evidence do you base this on?

And to my mind the EU has used this country as a cash cow.

The system is being run to benefit them at our expense. Net tax contributions are another obvious example of this.

Other than that..could you give other examples? The govt's own projections for years have said it's worth more to us qnd leaving will cost far, far more.

It's slow to respond to changing economic realities, A whale not a dolphin.

It takes the agreement of 27 governments to enact things, which takes years.

If we take corona virus as an example, they have yet to agree any bailout funds. And the nearest they got was a plan to do some in March of next year.

Having so many veto's paralyses everything anyone wants to do. 27 competeing interests.

Individual countries were left to make their own decisions..isn't that what you prefer?

Anyway, there is a few examples to give you a taste.

I could go on all day.

You hit upon the only good reason for Brexit - disallowing politicians from blaming everything on the EU.



My response would be that they'll just find some other scapegoat to blame everything else on.  :-P

[Stevlin]

That's why I have now come reluctantly to the view that a hard no deal Brexit is needed.  It's now reached the point where nearly half the people in the country won't believe we have really left unless we see significant short and medium term economic damage from Brexit - if there isn't a lot of fallout, they will believe that Brexit hasn't really happened and they've been conned.



That is the crazy situation this country is now in - the only way to prove that we honour the wishes of Brexit voters is to go ahead with the worst form of what they want.



Unfortunately, in my view it's the least worse option now because we now have the situation where nearly half the country would actually be happy to see the introduction of autocratic despotism (and many are already arguing for it) in order to do this one thing.  



If that happens, they will soon find out that once the precedent is set, despotic people tend to use the same trick again and again, and next time it might be for a policy that you don't like.

What an absolute load of nonsense! There is clearly something seriously wrong with you, if you truly believe that the UK electorate are unable to believe that Brexit has occurred because of the as yet economic damage attributable to Brexit doesn't appear to have occurred.... FYI, Brexit has been enacted.....we are currently in an agreed 'transition period', during which we endeavour to reach a new trade agreement, which is  looking more and more improbable as the EU are still endeavouring to keep the UK 'tied' to it in some form....

However, don't worry over it - I am sure that when Brexit has, (IF), become reality in practical terms,   then someone is sure to let you know.

[Javert]

On 23rd June it is 4 years anniversary of the UK voting to leave the EU.

We've almost left, but not quite.

That's why I have now come reluctantly to the view that a hard no deal Brexit is needed.  It's now reached the point where nearly half the people in the country won't believe we have really left unless we see significant short and medium term economic damage from Brexit - if there isn't a lot of fallout, they will believe that Brexit hasn't really happened and they've been conned.



That is the crazy situation this country is now in - the only way to prove that we honour the wishes of Brexit voters is to go ahead with the worst form of what they want.



Unfortunately, in my view it's the least worse option now because we now have the situation where nearly half the country would actually be happy to see the introduction of autocratic despotism (and many are already arguing for it) in order to do this one thing.  



If that happens, they will soon find out that once the precedent is set, despotic people tend to use the same trick again and again, and next time it might be for a policy that you don't like.

[Barry]

On 23rd June it is 4 years anniversary of the UK voting to leave the EU.

We've almost left, but not quite.

[Stevlin]

What gave you that idea?

Don't you ever read the rabid Scot's posts???

[Stevlin]

We should have no say at all in Welsh affairs, and you equally should have no say in ours.



I fully support the idea of an English parliament with PR.



Are you against that idea? If so, then just as we are classed as meddling sassenachs, you are being a meddling taffy and telling us English what to do.  :-P  :-P



I see you made a reference to ricin, your poison of choice.  :-P

I guess that practically, England now has it's own 'Parliament', as 'English only' legislative procedures are voted on solely by those MPs who have been elected to English constituencies.

Not quite the same as the other UK countries, but at least a practical solution ....what a shame the Scottish prat Blair didn't save a fortune by effecting a similar procedure for t'other UK countries. That would have saved a fortune by a non-proliferation of 'Extremely Expensive Parliamentarians'.....in fact reverting to just the Houses of Parliament, (preferably with a 'scrapped' or at least hugely reduced second chamber), would save a fortune, and particularly so in the current 'hardship' era - and the smaller countries would still have there own Parliamentary representation.

[viking]

What gave you that idea?

[Stevlin]

Strange really, how even in this day and age, some people still believe that only the 'English' are 'British!!

[johnofgwent]

We should have no say at all in Welsh affairs, and you equally should have no say in ours.



I fully support the idea of an English parliament with PR.



Are you against that idea? If so, then just as we are classed as meddling sassenachs, you are being a meddling taffy and telling us English what to do.  :-P  :-P



I see you made a reference to ricin, your poison of choice.  :-P

It's one I have written published material on the efficacy of. It's easier to use than cyanide and easier to get than rotenone, the other two in my research.



I think one should be prepared come Independence Day.