General Brexit discussion thread

[Stevlin]

Heres a even more updated reference for you stevlin ,





https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-six-key-facts-about-gers-2018-edition/#more-105649">https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-six-k ... ore-105649">https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-six-key-facts-about-gers-2018-edition/#more-105649



Not to mention the fact the scottish government , which has almost no borrowing powers under the terms of devolution , is forced to pay 3.5 billion every year servicing debt  interest your countries government ran up





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https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/borrowing.jpg">

Well Mr Squawker,

It is clearly ridiculous to apply current day 'norms' to historical  events - but in any event, bringing civilisation to the Indians and the unruly Picts cost money....

Furthermore, instead of making a credible case for countering the over-supported Scots from UK funding via a non- biased source,, ( unlike Full Fact),  you make a very good case for Brexit....which , after the beneficial economic boost in the immediate post joining the EEC(now EU) , the UK economy hardly continued to flourish. Continuing to subsidise such an unique, and undemocratic political entity is therefore clear nonsense.

However Mr Moaning - Minnie, I do support your wish to leave the EU...that would be much better for the UK.....(provided you cough up your share of the UK national debt), apart from the additional land border with the EU, as it could prove difficult to keep out those hordes of Scots that would continue to improve their lot by gaining entry into the UK....just as those  other poorer 'other nation' citizens in the EU are doing - and will continue to try even after Brexit has finally been accomplished

[Conchúr]

Are you that naive that you don't recognise what Sin Féin have come from? Blow a few bombs up, but their core business was drugs and prostitution, which in my eyes is a form of rape with minimal consent.

Yes, I know about their history.  You weren't so quick to criticise the DUP who have a long history of sectarianism and links to loyalist paramilitaries when they were keeping the UK government supplied with votes. The DUP actually, and quite openly, created their own paramilitary force known as Ulster Resistance which collaborated with other loyalist paramilitary organisations to smuggle weapons into Northern Ireland which were subsequently used to commit atrocities. The State was far quicker to turn a blind eye to Loyalist paramilitary activity, even colluding with them.  The only real difference between the DUP and Sinn Féin's connections was that the latter had to operate underground while the former could operate so openly that it barely seemed illegal at all.  



Your passion for peace and justice wasn't so evident when it wasn't convenient for you.



I don't vote for Sinn Féin and don't particularly like them as a party.  But to give them their credit, they were instrumental in bringing the bulk of militant Republicanism back into the fold of constitutional politics — to the extent that current Republican paramilitary groups actively despise Sinn Féin as traitors.  It's easy to judge when you didn't grow up in a conflict society Nick.  Let's say things had been different — let's say it had been Ireland that invaded England.  Let's say that after a long struggle the Irish eventually left, but retained your county and the 5 counties around it and created an international border between you and the rest of England.  Let's say this new mini state actively discriminated against English people and deprived them of voting parity, housing and jobs. Let's say that when English people marched peacefully for rights, they had been attacked by mobs and shot at by Irish soldiers.  What would you have done ? Would you have fought ? And even if not, would you feel morally equipped to utterly condemn young Englishmen who did ?



That's the kind of environment the Sinn Féin old guard grew up in.  In any case, the majority of the current leadership were youngsters back when the ceasefire was announced in '94, and the cries of Sinn Féin being a political wing of the IRA will die out with the passing of time.

[Thomas]

Are you that naive that you don't recognise what Sin Féin have come from? Blow a few bombs up, but their core business was drugs and prostitution, which in my eyes is a form of rape with minimal consent.

 i would dispute the origination of sinn fein in 1905 as being anything to do with the later republican gangs and their core business.



Tell me though nick , if this is what you believe, where was your voice when the DUP were propping up the tories in englandshire? Not once , thats twice in my lifetime they have done so?



Are you unaware of the DUP links and backing by loyalist paramilitaries who have those same links to bombs , drugs and prostitution?



Your silence indicates its ok for one group to be involved in politics in your country , but not ok for the other simply because they are against you.



In other words you have no moral high ground here over sinn fein , you are simply squeaking one group is your pals ( so you think) and the other the enemy.



Sinn fein are a legitimate political group in ireland , and if the irish support and elect them , its feck all to do with you.



Its going to be funny watching bojo the clown and his party having to talk to them if they get into power , and as many are saying if that is the case the calls for a border poll are going to get louder and louder.

[Thomas]

Britain (regarding the British isles) is a Roman word meaning England and part or Wales.

Britain is an english word , the roman word was brittannia , we dont use that word colloquially , and both the english and latin words come from the old celtic world prydain.



The old roman province of brittannia fluctuated over the centuries as we have discussed , and was never ever used to refer to england and wales as neither country existed in those days , and it didnt correspond with the modern boundaries of both those countries , and as discusssed at one point included much of southern scotland.



You are making a tit of yourself as ever thick nick , and between stevlins lack of geographic skills and your insane ramblings about history and placenames you must be an embarressment to your fellow englishmen on this forum.



I notice you havent addressed any of my points regarding why is there a roman wall north of glasgow , and why did the ancient people in southern scotland call themselves britons if they werent part of old britain at one point in history?



I mean i could go on nick , but its probably all a bit above your head , Stevlin despite his shite geography skills can at least put forth an argument to engage with . You are more on lotsovs level of insane zany rantings.

[Thomas]

You certainly appear to have more time than sense for squarking on the forum  Thomas, but I would point out that I have never claimed that YOU are the sole poster/individual who exaggerates....but the fact that some sensible Brexiteers, just like yourself  also exaggerate, is not a valid  excuse for you to do it too.



Project Fear round two, just like round one is baseless.



Incidentally, yes I can read big words thank you - and, unlike yourself, I can generally spell them correctly too - but obviously, I am still prone to making mistakes just like anyone else.



Incidentally, wrt your out of date references posted on another topic, using somewhat 'old' statistics - on Scotland's revenue v spend, here is a more updated analysis for your consideration.

https://fullfact.org/economy/tax-and-spending-scotland/">https://fullfact.org/economy/tax-and-spending-scotland/

Heres a even more updated reference for you stevlin ,





https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-six-key-facts-about-gers-2018-edition/#more-105649">https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-six-k ... ore-105649">https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-six-key-facts-about-gers-2018-edition/#more-105649



Not to mention the fact the scottish government , which has almost no borrowing powers under the terms of devolution , is forced to pay 3.5 billion every year servicing debt  interest your countries government ran up

According to GERS – which Unionists inexplicably insist on treating as a guide to an independent Scotland's finances even though everyone including them knows it isn't – Scotland currently pays around £3.5bn a year on servicing the UK's public sector debt.

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So how on Earth could it have racked up so much debt that the interest alone comes to £3.5bn a year? And the answer is of course that it couldn't and it didn't.

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In other words, Scotland is subsidising the UK's debt repayments by billions of pounds every year, even though Scotland didn't run up any of those debts.



The only squawking i can see on this forum is from you stevlin , i see also you are still silent about all the money your beloved yookay is being forced to pay to the nasty eu over the coming 11 months.



Oh and incidentally , on your link , scotland wont have a population share of the northe sea oil , we will have 96 % of it. Not to mention the vast amount sitting in our waters off shetland at clair ridge.



On top of that we wont be forced to pay for all your countries debt interest and infrastructure projects while subsidising you to the tune of hundreds of billions .



A bit like the 180 years of  british rule in india where you recorded 180 annual deficits while extracting 45 trillion from the indians secretly over that time , and once free , they began rebuilding their country from the devastation wrought by the anglo saxon leech.

[Thomas]

Secondly, their bid for freedom was based on oil at $100 per barrel of crude, it's now $50 😝, they voted to remain in the UK.

Nick , have you dredged up the better together propaganda from 2014 over the last few days?



Scotlands bid for freedom wasnt based on oil over $100 a barrell.



First of all all oil revenue goes to  london , not scotland currently.



Secondly  , without any oil , scotlands GDP is the same as the ruk .



Thirdly , the oil argument is a strange one where the emotional attachment to the uk or an indy scotland isnt considered , and as we saw from brexit and your country , and your own arguments  , you and many other english brexiters completely dismissed the economic argument against brexit.



...but somehow its different for us? ::



Throughout the entire 48 years or so of north sea oil production , our oil has been entirely mismanaged by your country and government the whole time.



For years norway has generated more than double the revenue from a barrell of oil that what the uk government did over the same time despite producing broadly similar amounts , so much so when slumps come and go , your country is running about like a headless chicken worrying about the fall in revenue , while the norwegians are sitting on an oil fund worth over ten trillion kroner , completely unconcerned about any oil price slump.



Its the fact scotland has not been independent and not been able to manage our oil like our friends and european neighbours norway that has cost us dearly , and the fact we have let you feckin muppets piss it all up against the wall.

[Nick]

What do you mean by them "representing" rapists and murderers?

Are you that naive that you don't recognise what Sin Féin have come from? Blow a few bombs up, but their core business was drugs and prostitution, which in my eyes is a form of rape with minimal consent.

[Conchúr]

I suppose it's also unprecedented that the 18-30 year olds are voting for a party that represents rapists and murderers? Just like the 18-30 year olds in the UK that deem Corbyn and McDonnell to be decent upstanding Marxist/Leninist's.

What do you mean by them "representing" rapists and murderers?

[Nick]

I thought you believed in the "will of the people"?



Proportional representation has generally worked well in Ireland. The three way split is unprecedented in Irish history, but now the parties will have to sit down and find who can work best together to deliver for the country.  



I like that element of Irish politics — it promotes the idea of collaborating with your opponents and compromising with them.   It has its downsides sure, but personally I prefer to see political parties 'forced' to work together rather than just eternally vilifying eachother.  The UK could do with a bit of political collaboration and reconciliation right now, wouldn't you agree?

I suppose it's also unprecedented that the 18-30 year olds are voting for a party that represents rapists and murderers? Just like the 18-30 year olds in the UK that deem Corbyn and McDonnell to be decent upstanding Marxist/Leninist's.

[Nick]

Agh nick, the simplistic view on things.

First scotland was told during their vote that leaving the uk would mean leaving the eu. No need to to rehash that ground,there was also LIES about how north oil was running out, after the vote it was oops we got that wrong  as for once in a life time, that's utter nonsense, totally undemocratic. You cant base a vote on a bed of lies and hold people to it. But more importantly Scotland is it's own country and will decide it's own future, nothing to do with england.

NI Has never said they didnt want a United Ireland, where did you get that from. The GFA allows the people of NI to determine their own faith, so again if they decide to go for a united IRL, they will and like Scotland, England will have zero say.

Personally I understand NI is unique and has a very sensitive balance, beacuse of this people outside NI shouldnt be driving an agenda, they will decide their own path and it won't be to suit brexiteers that find the NI "situation" inconvenient,  NI is not a pawn. Brexit is very much now a english thing and the outcome will be down totally to what england does. No more room for blaming the EU.

Firstly, the sooner Scotland leaves the better as far as I am  concerned.



Secondly, their bid for freedom was based on oil at $100 per barrel of crude, it's now $50 😝, they voted to remain in the UK.



Using the Remainers calculator, the SNP only got 41% of the Scottish people's vote during the GE (62% of 67%). That tells us 59% of the Scots are not bothered either way about remaining in the EU so are not being taken out against their will. In fact, to contradict myself, it just means they voted SNP and nothing else.



Also Mr Straw, I categorically said NI Doesn't want a unified Ireland so why ask me where I said they did.

[GerryT]

Do you want a wishy washy 3 way split, or would you prefer strong decisive government.

I know the one I'd prefer.

If you mean what the uk has offered, no that's certainly not the type of govt I would want inflicted on IRL. so yes a wishy washy split is good for me.

A coalition requires parties to have the ability to compromise, what the electorate get is not the one sided views of one party over another but a blend of two parties. It's far more representative of what people want.

But it does require parties to be flexible and able to work together, in IRL that's the way it's always been, so this recent result may not cause much difficulty.

[GerryT]

Scotland had its "Once in a life time vote" and voted to remain. NI has made it clear they don't want a unified Ireland. What don't you understand?

Agh nick, the simplistic view on things.

First scotland was told during their vote that leaving the uk would mean leaving the eu. No need to to rehash that ground,there was also LIES about how north oil was running out, after the vote it was oops we got that wrong  as for once in a life time, that's utter nonsense, totally undemocratic. You cant base a vote on a bed of lies and hold people to it. But more importantly Scotland is it's own country and will decide it's own future, nothing to do with england.

NI Has never said they didnt want a United Ireland, where did you get that from. The GFA allows the people of NI to determine their own faith, so again if they decide to go for a united IRL, they will and like Scotland, England will have zero say.

Personally I understand NI is unique and has a very sensitive balance, beacuse of this people outside NI shouldnt be driving an agenda, they will decide their own path and it won't be to suit brexiteers that find the NI "situation" inconvenient,  NI is not a pawn. Brexit is very much now a english thing and the outcome will be down totally to what england does. No more room for blaming the EU.

[Barry]

I thought you believed in the "will of the people"?

I certainly do.

Proportional representation has generally worked well in Ireland. The three way split is unprecedented in Irish history, but now the parties will have to sit down and find who can work best together to deliver for the country.

We'll see how that goes. Spain has been in limbo for years, the same could happen in Ireland if no one will form a coalition with any of the others.

I like that element of Irish politics — it promotes the idea of collaborating with your opponents and compromising with them.   It has its downsides sure, but personally I prefer to see political parties 'forced' to work together rather than just eternally vilifying eachother.

I do agree that coalitions tend to moderate policies, but they can also paralyse politics.

 The UK could do with a bit of political collaboration and reconciliation right now, wouldn't you agree?

With an IN/OUT decision it's impossible to please the losers. You can please some of the people all of the time, or you can please all of the people some of the time. But you can't please all of the people all of the time.

[Conchúr]

Do you want a wishy washy 3 way split, or would you prefer strong decisive government.

I know the one I'd prefer.

I thought you believed in the "will of the people"?



Proportional representation has generally worked well in Ireland. The three way split is unprecedented in Irish history, but now the parties will have to sit down and find who can work best together to deliver for the country.  



I like that element of Irish politics — it promotes the idea of collaborating with your opponents and compromising with them.   It has its downsides sure, but personally I prefer to see political parties 'forced' to work together rather than just eternally vilifying eachother.  The UK could do with a bit of political collaboration and reconciliation right now, wouldn't you agree?

[Conchúr]

So what? What bit don't you get about the 'ELECTED' UK government having the authority to govern the 'people' as they see fit?? I am not claiming that the UK's participation in the EU, OR that the EU's actions are illegal - I am stating that the EU EXECUTIVE is UNDEMOCRATIC.

As I said earlier, you just don't get it!!  

Thanks again for illustrating that. Brexit is a clear example of DEMOCRACY....that just doesn't exist in the EU!! - and Brexit ILLUSTRATES the UK's democracy, NOT that of the EU - because EU governance has NO democratic element.

How is it undemocratic? Decisions are made either by unanimity or majority, depending on the importance.  That's a fairly basic form of democratic process.  You seem to be suggesting that it's "undemocratic" that votes don't always go the way of certain member states — but isn't that the nature of democracy ? In any democracy, some people have to accept having a government they didn't vote for or a policy being introduced that they did not like.  That's the way it goes .... that's why we have a voting process among people and organisations — it's an imperfect process to provide satisfaction as broadly as possible.  



The point remains that democratically elected governments have a mandate to accept the democratic process of the EU.  If they don't accept it, they don't have to stay — or the people can elect a government that will leave.  



I really don't see how much further you can take this argument.  It's now demonstrably disproven by recent events.