General Brexit discussion thread

[Conchúr]

This veto is a bit of a hobby horse for you. I would equally question what is so profound about EU decisions as opposed to those of the rest of the world. I don't see any logic in your argument. Scotland is not an independent country. Like so many of the hypothetical arguments to do with Brexit there is no guarantee that when push comes to shove  the EU will offer entry with conditions that they agree to. A week is a long time in politics they say and I have a feeling that the EU will have rather more worries than Scotland.

If vetos are a hobby horse of mine, then semantics would appear to be yours.  A "profound" EU decision is just a linguistic way of writing a decision which profoundly affects the functioning of the EU, which in turn requires an amendment of the treaties by unanimous decison.



And no, there is nothing particularly more profound about those decisions than anywhere else — but they are still profound within the European Union itself.  The point still stands — an independent Scotland as a member state would have (among a whole raft of other benefits) veto power over major decisions at the EU level.  As a jurisdiction of the UK however, it has no authority to prevent itself being unwillingly torn out of the EU.  



And I know Scotland is not an independent country ....and I know it's all hypothetical...but I was responding to your comment which was itself hypothetical.  A hypothetical point is being made about why Scotland would ever join the EU, and I am demonstrating one particular argument that Scotland would be afforded more authority over major EU decisions than it is afforded within the UK.  I don't see any counter argument being made.

[T00ts]

You are asking why Scotland would ever seek to join the EU and I am giving you a comparative example of its authority as a country / member / jurdisdiction (whatever you want to call it) of the UK versus that afforded to member states of the EU. The majority of Scots do not wish to leave the EU and if they were an independent member state of the EU they would not be leaving.   Within the UK, they are being forced to leave.



So again...when you ask "why would they ever join the EU", I am giving you an example of why.  Scotland would have more veto power over profound EU matters than it does over profound UK constitutional matters.  If you disagree with that, explain why and how it is not the case.

This veto is a bit of a hobby horse for you. I would equally question what is so profound about EU decisions as opposed to those of the rest of the world. I don't see any logic in your argument. Scotland is not an independent country. Like so many of the hypothetical arguments to do with Brexit there is no guarantee that when push comes to shove  the EU will offer entry with conditions that they agree to. A week is a long time in politics they say and I have a feeling that the EU will have rather more worries than Scotland.

[Conchúr]

Scotland is not a member of the UK it is UK.  The claim that 'they' have been ignored is laughable. They were part of the UK referendum and their votes counted with the rest of the UK. Do you suggest that those who voted leave in Scotland should be ignored in the same way as you did the rest of the UK majority?

You are asking why Scotland would ever seek to join the EU and I am giving you a comparative example of its authority as a country / member / jurdisdiction (whatever you want to call it) of the UK versus that afforded to member states of the EU. The majority of Scots do not wish to leave the EU and if they were an independent member state of the EU they would not be leaving.   Within the UK, they are being forced to leave.



So again...when you ask "why would they ever join the EU", I am giving you an example of why.  Scotland would have more veto power over profound EU matters than it does over profound UK constitutional matters.  If you disagree with that, explain why and how it is not the case.

[T00ts]

Well, let's draw up an example:



— As a member state of the EU, an independent Scotland would have a veto over any profound changes in the EU which require an amendment of the EU Treaties.



— As a member of the UK, Scotland has been utterly ignored over the profound constitutional changes inherent in Brexit.



Discuss.

Scotland is not a member of the UK it is UK.  The claim that 'they' have been ignored is laughable. They were part of the UK referendum and their votes counted with the rest of the UK. Do you suggest that those who voted leave in Scotland should be ignored in the same way as you did the rest of the UK majority?

[Conchúr]

Yes, you see I totally agree with you but remainers see a completely different regime. I don't understand it either. If Scotland does all this it creates another customs border with England and although they appear on the up at the moment I would have thought that by the time they sort out their leaving and then get their membership with the EU who we know are painfully slow at any sort of thinking, they may well be a basket case. I assume that the Scots have thought this all through and perhaps I have it wrong, no doubt Thomas will rock up shortly and sort us out! Of course perhaps they see the EU as a replacement fund and expect to be recipients of EU largesse. I don't envy them one bit. But what do I know?



Perhaps the EU army will be kitted out with kilts and sporans and the Scottish economy will peak beyond recognition.   :-?

Well, let's draw up an example:



— As a member state of the EU, an independent Scotland would have a veto over any profound changes in the EU which require an amendment of the EU Treaties.



— As a member of the UK, Scotland has been utterly ignored over the profound constitutional changes inherent in Brexit.



Discuss.

[T00ts]

Quite.



The real question is why the Scots are so obsessed with rejoining the EU. I can understand the desire for independence and having all true Scots lining up at the border, raising their feileadhs and breaking wind happily in the general direction of the b*stard English. That is all good fun.



But the EU?



It is not a noble experiment designed for the betterment of mankind. It is the Brussels Town Hall trying to hang onto its jobs. And in a decade it will have fallen apart, leaving Scotland high, dry and well and truly buggered.

Yes, you see I totally agree with you but remainers see a completely different regime. I don't understand it either. If Scotland does all this it creates another customs border with England and although they appear on the up at the moment I would have thought that by the time they sort out their leaving and then get their membership with the EU who we know are painfully slow at any sort of thinking, they may well be a basket case. I assume that the Scots have thought this all through and perhaps I have it wrong, no doubt Thomas will rock up shortly and sort us out! Of course perhaps they see the EU as a replacement fund and expect to be recipients of EU largesse. I don't envy them one bit. But what do I know?



Perhaps the EU army will be kitted out with kilts and sporans and the Scottish economy will peak beyond recognition.   :-?

[Borchester]

Thomas - the EU will say anything to up the anti against us. Once they have played with your minds and you have your independence then the 'rules' will click in. Be careful what you wish for.

Quite.



The real question is why the Scots are so obsessed with rejoining the EU. I can understand the desire for independence and having all true Scots lining up at the border, raising their feileadhs and breaking wind happily in the general direction of the b*stard English. That is all good fun.



But the EU?



It is not a noble experiment designed for the betterment of mankind. It is the Brussels Town Hall trying to hang onto its jobs. And in a decade it will have fallen apart, leaving Scotland high, dry and well and truly buggered.

[T00ts]

Thomas - the EU will say anything to up the anti against us. Once they have played with your minds and you have your independence then the 'rules' will click in. Be careful what you wish for.

[Thomas]

As usual you exaggerate.

I exaggerate?

Loyalists on Brexit: 'A one-way route to an economic united Ireland'

A 'neglected and pushed' loyalist community feels 'totally betrayed' by Boris Johnson





Loyalists oppose a trade border in the Irish Sea, the compromise agreed by British prime minister Boris Johnson and the EU in October that paves the way for the UK's orderly departure from the EU on Friday.



Loyalists see the new border in symbolic terms as eroding their political identity as unionists and British subjects of the crown.



They see the new customs and regulatory frontier on the Irish Sea not as London, Dublin and Brussels see it – a compromise to avoid a hard Irish land Border that could have sparked republican anger and potentially violence – but as a step to Irish economic unity.



For this they blame Johnson, who vowed at the DUP conference in 2018 not to create any economic barriers in the Irish Sea. Their anger is not helped by the confused messages from Johnson and UK officials about the checks required on goods moving between the North and Britain after Brexit.



Suck it up'



Wilson says there is "a lot of anger" in the loyalist community that Johnson "totally betrayed" the British people of Northern Ireland.



"This isn't what I signed up for: to be told by the British government to just 'suck it up, and too bad this is the way it is going to be'."



After the deal was unveiled in October a series of public meetings and rallies brought together a broad sweep of unionists and loyalists to protest against the deal they call the "betrayal act".



Wilson says Johnson's deal was a "complete somersault", and "the ultimate sell-out" which breaches the 1998 Belfast Agreement that underpins the peace process.

[/b]



https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/loyalists-on-brexit-a-one-way-route-to-an-economic-united-ireland-1.4155385">https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politic ... -1.4155385">https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/loyalists-on-brexit-a-one-way-route-to-an-economic-united-ireland-1.4155385



Can you read the big words stevlin? Anger , betrayal by johnson , new border between parts of the uk , johnsons betrayal act etc etc.



pop on over to northern ireland and let them know they are exaggerating , suck it up paddies england must have its brexit.

NI, because, unlike Scotland, has a land border between its territory and the EU. Now even die-hard Remainers such as yourself should appreciate that Brexit in NI raises border problems that do not exist with countries in Gt Britain.

lets just wind that back shall we stevlin?



Let me help you with your selective amnesia.



It was myself and uganda on the old forum among many others who told you the land border would be a problem for brexit many years ago , posting many articles on the subject.



Back in 2014 , i even posted an article by constitutional lawyer aileen mcharg on how brexit would destabilise the yookay and the problems it would cause at the irish border.



This isnt some new revelation that has only just come to light is it stevlin? We know there has been a border there for the last century , i know better than you .



Need i remind you you didnt even know northern ireland was a part of the uk back in 2014  , you thought it merely an associate member. So im not taking any lectures from you on the subject.

However, NI WILL exit the EU along with the rest of the UK.

Quite clearly that isnt the case , or why are the loyalists upset about a border appearing between them and the rest of the yookay?At best you exaggerate , at worst you fib stevlin.



You and your hero johnson are going to get some real pelters this year for all these fibs you keep spouting.

.other than for agricultural and manufactured goods, for a while longer - yet to be determined.

Ahh ......the famous caveat thrown in at the back when stevlin is on shaky ground.



You told me that brexit was a uk vote and the uk would leave , and plainly by your own words , that isnt the case with northern ireland. Northern ireland is being treated differently from the rest of the yookay , and we all know it.



hence the loyalists extremely upset.

Incidentally, apart from the obvious fact that Scotland doesn't have any similar border situation to NI

please quote me where i have suggested at the minute we do? Diversion .



The fact remains northern ireland is remaining in the eu which you maintained would never happen. :roll:


 

I suspect that Spain could well prevent even a sovereign Scotland from joining the EU,

i suspect spain could very well veto any uk trade deal with the eu over gibraltar.

(no matter what Tusk or anyone else claims), because of their Catalonia 'Independence' situation.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/guardianspain.jpg">



https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/spainveto1.jpg">



https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/buzzveto.jpg">



Rubbish.Do keep up stevlin. Spains constitution is indivisible from their point of view , whereas they recognise the difference between catalonia in spain and scotland in the uk , where we are a founding member in 1707 , and by international treaty can leave when we like .



Spanish prime ministers like rajoy and many others of their political elite recognised this , and as you know i posted it many time on the old forum..





Northern ireland is staying in the eu becasue the eu and ireland ragdolled you about in negotiations , and now spain are threatening the same over gibraltar.



Stevlin runs around bleating scotland cant be independent and a member because of catalonia , while former european council president , who knows a wee bit more on these matters than stevlin in the wirral announces only yesterday.....



'

Empathy' for independent Scotland joining the EU says Tusk



Former European Council president Donald Tusk says Brussels feels "empathy" towards an independent Scotland joining the European Union.



Nicola Sturgeon has said an independent Scotland would seek full EU membership.



When asked if this would be looked upon favourably, Mr Tusk said, "emotionally I have no doubt that everyone will be enthusiastic"...



...Mr Tusk's comments come after his predecessor, Herman Van Rompuy, last year said he believes Brexit has changed EU attitudes to Scottish independence...



...Mr Tusk, who served as European Council president for five years until November last year, was speaking in a BBC interview to be aired on The Andrew Marr Show.



When asked about the prospect of an independent Scotland joining the EU, the Polish politician said "I want to stop myself from saying something too blunt".



He said that he feels "very Scottish, especially after Brexit"

[/b].



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-51342714">https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... s-51342714">https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-51342714

[Stevlin]

ok so lets recognise the existence of the united kingdom as a multi national state. Done.



Brexit (in name only but lets leave that for now) has taken place. Done.



So why is northern ireland still in the eu? Why are the gantries being erected at belfast port to check and control goods to and from the rest of the uk?



Seems your independent united kingdom country isnt fully independent  stevlin . ::

As usual you exaggerate. NI, because, unlike Scotland, has a land border between its territory and the EU. Now even die-hard Remainers such as yourself should appreciate that Brexit in NI raises border problems that do not exist with countries in Gt Britain.

However, NI WILL exit the EU along with the rest of the UK....other than for agricultural and manufactured goods, for a while longer - yet to be determined.

Incidentally, apart from the obvious fact that Scotland doesn't have any similar border situation to NI, I suspect that Spain could well prevent even a sovereign Scotland from joining the EU, (no matter what Tusk or anyone else claims), because of their Catalonia 'Independence' situation.

[Thomas]

That has nothing to do with Scotland's tilt at becoming independent - but it is a major reason for supporting Brexit - along with the risible concept of forming a political entity, which acts as a pseudo Federation  - and as you don't appear to recognise it - that will cease after Brexit.

 However, good luck to you and your ilk with your 'union' hopping!!

It will cease after brexit? Do explain stevlin ,



1. You tell us brexit was last friday , yet at last count , the uk will continue to pay the eu £8.9 billion for the next 11 months post brexit , not to mention further amounts down the line. How will it cease after brexit?



2. As a political entity pseudo federation , :roll:  prove it will cease to exist( if im reading you right) after brexit? Only today i posted the poll taken in poland where it showed 96% in favour of the eu membership , you know , the poland you have been telling me is leaving the eu for the last four years?



From what i can see stevlin , brexit hasnt even begun , and already its falling apart.



Johnson sold the irish unionists down the road despite promising them he wouldnt , spain making noises over gibraltar , eu through tusk this morning offering to welcome an indy scotland , johnsons bottle crashing with the announcement today of over 5 million spending on advertising to keep jockland in your wee union , of course despite telling us we cant have a referendum?



On top of that gauke pointing out he is already cranking up the blame on the europeans for his piss poor plans over brexit and trade deals.



Dont be surprised if fickle johnson somewhere down the line shafts you  ( collectively brexiters)into the bargain when it gets too hot for him to handle.

[Stevlin]

you seem to have went all silent about the 8.9 billion pounds the uk is paying to the eu , you know , the billions you demanded the uk stopped paying into the eu coffers stevlin?



for years you ranted about it , and now all of a sudden like much of brexit it appears to have become expendable and quietly brushed under the carpet.



 :brd:

That has nothing to do with Scotland's tilt at becoming independent - but it is a major reason for supporting Brexit - along with the risible concept of forming a political entity, which acts as a pseudo Federation  - and as you don't appear to recognise it - that will cease after Brexit.

 However, good luck to you and your ilk with your 'union' hopping!!

[Thomas]

Ah c'mon now Toots! - why didn't you explain to the latter day Pict that because he doesn't appear to recognise the existence of the unified UK, which is accepted internationally as an independent country, and also truly sovereign again, now that Brexit has finally taken place.

Yes, the United Kingdom is an independent country and is recognized as such by the United Nations.

you seem to have went all silent about the 8.9 billion pounds the uk is paying to the eu , you know , the billions you demanded the uk stopped paying into the eu coffers stevlin?



for years you ranted about it , and now all of a sudden like much of brexit it appears to have become expendable and quietly brushed under the carpet.



 :brd:

[Thomas]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EPuNrq9XkAEJuY2?format=png&name=900x900">



David gauke taking the piss out of the telegraph...

David Gauke

@DavidGauke

'EU reneges on deal' turns out to mean 'EU maintains its longstanding position to which the UK agreed in the Political Declaration'. Not quite the same thing.

[/b]



https://twitter.com/DavidGauke/status/1223934010008666112">https://twitter.com/DavidGauke/status/1 ... 0008666112">https://twitter.com/DavidGauke/status/1223934010008666112



someone telling porkies? who would have thought it? :roll:  ::

[Thomas]

Ah c'mon now Toots! - why didn't you explain to the latter day Pict that because he doesn't appear to recognise the existence of the unified UK, which is accepted internationally as an independent country, and also truly sovereign again, now that Brexit has finally taken place.

Yes, the United Kingdom is an independent country and is recognized as such by the United Nations.

ok so lets recognise the existence of the united kingdom as a multi national state. Done.



Brexit (in name only but lets leave that for now) has taken place. Done.



So why is northern ireland still in the eu? Why are the gantries being erected at belfast port to check and control goods to and from the rest of the uk?



Seems your independent united kingdom country isnt fully independent  stevlin . ::