General Brexit discussion thread

[Borchester]

*******-

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well, maybe so, but hang on.



A diplomat is paid to lie to foreigners on behalf of the government that pays them. This is a given. The prize example of that has to be the Iraqi (can't recall his name, or alias, "Chemical Ali" comes to mind for some reason but i **KNOW** that's not the guy) who, as the Americans breached the doors of the radio and TV station in Bagdhad, was still saying live on air there were no American boots on Baghdad soil and kept on saying it until the powe5422222222222222222222222222321665r was cut.+4+9*87/



But this is a case of someone claiming they can't keep doing it because they no longer trust the people paying them to do it which also means they no longer believe in the cause.



So yes, I agree we are indeed better off without them, although perhaps - unless I misunderstood what you said - you and I have arrived at the same place by different routes.

I think that you mean Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf, or Comical Ali. Have to give the bloke his due. There was a video on Youtube of him swearing holes through pewter pots that the Coalition armies had been routed while over his should an American tank was trundling up the road.  ::

[johnofgwent]

If a diplomat can't tell a few porkies on behalf of her nation then she isn't worth her weight in salt.



We are better off without the silly cow.

well, maybe so, but hang on.



A diplomat is paid to lie to foreigners on behalf of the government that pays them. This is a given. The prize example of that has to be the Iraqi (can't recall his name, or alias, "Chemical Ali" comes to mind for some reason but i **KNOW** that's not the guy) who, as the Americans breached the doors of the radio and TV station in Bagdhad, was still saying live on air there were no American boots on Baghdad soil and kept on saying it until the power was cut.



But this is a case of someone claiming they can't keep doing it because they no longer trust the people paying them to do it which also means they no longer believe in the cause.



So yes, I agree we are indeed better off without them, although perhaps - unless I misunderstood what you said - you and I have arrived at the same place by different routes.

[Borchester]

Breaking News:-



More at link:-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50693537">https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50693537



British diplomat resigns over having to 'peddle half-truths' on Brexit



A UK diplomat in charge of Brexit at the British embassy in the US has quit.

In her resignation letter, seen by broadcaster CNN, Alexandra Hall Hall said she could no longer "peddle half-truths" on behalf of political leaders she did not "trust".

She said she has become "dismayed" by the reluctance of politicians to "honestly" address the "challenges and trade-offs" involved in leaving the EU.

The Foreign Office said it would not comment on details of her resignation.

However, it did confirm Ms Hall Hall had resigned as UK Brexit Counsellor at the British embassy in Washington - a post which involves explaining the UK Brexit policy to US lawmakers and policymakers.

If a diplomat can't tell a few porkies on behalf of her nation then she isn't worth her weight in salt.



We are better off without the silly cow.

[Stevlin]

 The more i dug, the more I found Leave'claims were lies.

You forgot to add that you ignored the 'Remainer' lies

....probably you were softened up by the bogey man threats and lies that were made under the renowned Project Fear, just for having the temerity to HOLD a referendum on leaving the EU

The "sovereignty" argument is BS. Leaver's are chasing the illusion of sovereignty over the substance.  What matters is a country's ability to project it's influence.

Not at all, you 'non-thinking straight' Remainers are the prize BS experts!!

How can any, even moderately sensible person, claim that the EU, which has primacy of legislation, proposed by an unelected Executive,can  conform with ANY definition of a nation's sovereignty??



Such national sovereignty was initially, largely, albeit not totally protected by each member state having the power- of- veto......but this, 'democracy'' guarding facility has now been drastically reduced, such that member states are no longer capable of fully 'protecting their interests'. This is the antithesis of sovereignty....and your comarison with the performance of an American State with Canada is ridiculous. There are many more factors than just population for instance which greatly effect economic performances....even when comparing performances of two areas within a single nation.

[Findeton]

In general, Brexit has been handled. No candidate is saying  No Deal is an option anymore, not even as an campaign gimmick. So Brexit is just going to be a one inch step out of the EU. As many have said before, no country is ever fully out of the EU, you can be closer or farther.

That's interesting, her https://www.iri.org/who-we-are/bod/dr-daniel-twining">Husband is a real globalist.

Yes he looks like a nice guy, good for him.

[Barry]

That's interesting, her https://www.iri.org/who-we-are/bod/dr-daniel-twining">Husband is a real globalist.

[papasmurf]

Breaking News:-



More at link:-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50693537">https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50693537



British diplomat resigns over having to 'peddle half-truths' on Brexit



A UK diplomat in charge of Brexit at the British embassy in the US has quit.

In her resignation letter, seen by broadcaster CNN, Alexandra Hall Hall said she could no longer "peddle half-truths" on behalf of political leaders she did not "trust".

She said she has become "dismayed" by the reluctance of politicians to "honestly" address the "challenges and trade-offs" involved in leaving the EU.

The Foreign Office said it would not comment on details of her resignation.

However, it did confirm Ms Hall Hall had resigned as UK Brexit Counsellor at the British embassy in Washington - a post which involves explaining the UK Brexit policy to US lawmakers and policymakers.

[Barry]

They are all projections and guesswork, although I appreciate they have some basis and would find it difficult to argue. However, if it was only about the economy, I'd have probably voted remain. But it isn't.



I've noticed that in Corbyn world a second referendum would include all UK residents in the voters list. This would be a huge shift as it would allow about 2 million foreigners to vote in our elections. Those foreign voters would almost certainly vote remain.

Now that's what I call foreign interference in an election.

[BeElBeeBub]

Interesting graph, nonetheless.

I think it says, vote LibDem for the economy, vote Labour to go broke.

Vote Tory to stay on a flatline and leave the EU somewhere in the middle.

Although the "no deal" variant is the worst for debt.



The point being you cannot pick and choose which one of the conclusions you believe



If you believe that Labour's policies will increase debt, you must also accept that "no deal" will raise it more.



If you say "ah well! Nobody said it would be easy, but it's a price worth paying for freedom/sovereignty/to be free of the USSE etc".  Then you must also accept that other people may well feel can well! nobody said to would be easy but it's a.orice worth paying for a fairer society/better services/to.become the new USSR etc"

[Barry]

Far too short term to be any value.

Interesting graph, nonetheless.

I think it says, vote LibDem for the economy, vote Labour to go broke.

Vote Tory to stay on a flatline and leave the EU somewhere in the middle.

[Scott777]

Out to 2023



Slide deck here.  Slide 12 iirc



https://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/Manifesto-analysis-Public-finances-general%20election-2019_V2.pdf">https://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/Manifest ... 019_V2.pdf">https://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/Manifesto-analysis-Public-finances-general%20election-2019_V2.pdf

Far too short term to be any value.

[BeElBeeBub]

Over what period?

Out to 2023



Slide deck here.  Slide 12 iirc



https://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/Manifesto-analysis-Public-finances-general%20election-2019_V2.pdf">https://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/Manifest ... 019_V2.pdf">https://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/Manifesto-analysis-Public-finances-general%20election-2019_V2.pdf

[PhantomPhlyer]

In 1975 I was working in a bank. It was my 3rd job, I easily moved from one to another. I had just got married and bought my own house, 2 up 2 down semi. I didn't think it was at all bad. I worked hard and with Mrs help we improved our situation.

As you were an egg, you have no experiences to recount.  ::

1975,  yup I was also working in the banking industry, after several years of military service strapped into an ejector seat , and I was lending money to so many happy people buying their own homes, and new cars etc. ( not British  however )



I also remember that things were good in 1970, and the economy and housing market was booming,  but the militant trade unions soon put paid to that, and due to the politicising of disputes etc,by these union leaders let there be no doubt or ambiguity, we were the sick man of Europe back then!



The early years of the Heath government coincided with prosperity rising house prices etc., and were part of the 'never had it so good ' era, but by 1973, with inflation rising , the three day week and Northern Ireland warming up, things had taken a downturn!



So Heath was ousted and the Tory Government was replaced by the dull, grey socialist government of Harold Wilson .



In 1974 Wilson formed a minority government, even though the Tories won more votes!



Wilson called an election later in 74 and managed a 2 seat overall majority and then held a referendum over our membership of the EEC with two thirds voting to remain.



Inflation was rising, the economy was stagnating , typically Labour crap economic mismanagement, so Wilson eventually resigned and Jim Callaghan formed a government which was an unmitigated disaster, with the economy already in trouble , taking a nosedive , "crisis what crisis " became the now infamous  Callaghan slogan , whilst overseeing ' the Winter of Discontent ( with rubbish lying and rotting in the streets, and the deceased lying unburied) and then we went through a period of rampant inflation with 15% mortgage rates, ( I was getting 22% overnight out of New York ) and we began seeing plenty of nonsense from Brussels like butter mountains and wine lakes and kilos and kilometres and double labelling of goods for sale, all on top of an incompetent government, led by yet another incompetent Labour PM



But  to be fair, if it was not for our membership of the European trading block the IMF would likely have sent us packing, and we would have been ruined, so there were definite plusses to membership, but and it is a big BUT, this was membership of a trade cartel, the EEC - it was not , repeat not again  not the EU as we now know it!



What some refuse to  acknowledge, fingers in their ears singing lalalalala whenever it was mentioned, or maybe they are so thick that they can't grasp, that the unelected Communist Union leaders of the day, which Comrade Corbyn would like to bring back to life, had -



a.brought down the democratically elected Heath government,



b.they had brought down the democratically elected Callaghan government, ( Callaghan even said that if he was younger he would emigrate-fact not myth ) and



c. they fully expected to bring down the democratically elected Thatcher government, but this is where they failed and the left cannot & will not forgive her for this and refuse to forget it seems - she stood up to Scargill , Red Robbo & Co, on behalf of the British people, and won, and for this she deserves the highest praise.



Too many gullible soles have been indoctrinated by Socialist fairy tales , but the truth is -



   •   In 2008, our precarious position in a 'limited financial crisis '( mainly European not a Global Crisis as Labour like to spin - just check which countries were actually involved )   was down to lack of supervision and naive management of the financial sector, & not just down to the Banks, ( And especially the pure greed by the Labour Government ) & of course their mismanagement of the whole economy, with of course massive overspending & throwing money at the public sector - which is - wait for it  'Labour's Client Base', causing near bankruptcy, it was not 'greedy, or dishonest bankers, even though the banks were involved.



   •   So, there is a salutary lesson to be learned come next Thursday , and that is ' 11 years later, we are still  paying for the last labour economic disaster' .



   •    The culprits brazenly claimed ( and still do )  , whenever they get in front of a camera, that 13 years of their policies whilst in government were  not responsible for the economic mess we're still in eleven years later



   •   Not our fault Gov, twas those crooked bankers!



   •   Ed Miliband and his spin doctors , claimed ' Overspending is not to blame for the debt ' - just the same as Tony Blair did.



   •   But, It's nonsense  of course: what else creates bad debt other than overspending -  Bad weather, The bad debt fairy, Martians?



   •   No, the previous Labour government bear a great deal of responsibility for the debt crisis, because they overspent, overspent and yes overspent , whether that was on so called good causes or simply recklessly overspending on their client base, is immaterial.



   •   The  IMF confirmed (fact again ) that the prosperity that Labour prided itself on, and spun and spun and spun, was in fact a 'debt-fuelled illusion', and crucially, it also confirmed that 2007 was the worst year for economic overheating since at least the 1970s.



   •   Labour  lied to the country about the debt situation  and even claimed that  "By 2007-08, the public debt was significantly below , the levels inherited in 1997:" -this was a blatant  and out & out lie.



   •   Anyway, the basic fact was that the Labour government was borrowing like there's no tomorrow, & after April 2001, Labour simply gave up balancing the budgets

   •   

   •   The price of debt was kept artificially low, so households borrowed too.



   •   It was a mountain of debt, built upon debt.  Blair, along with Brown, really does  bear huge responsibility for the longest recession in our history, and they are the true cause of cutbacks and austerity, not the current government?



   •   Labour under Blair simply abandoned attempts to balance the books, leaving others to try and get us out of the mess they left, and who pays , even now 'we do' of course,  the poorest in society, and if any one thinks that austerity up to now has been tough, think again, because life has been relatively easy compared to what is likely to happen if the wild  Marxist spending agenda proposed by Corbyn and the ever sinister McDonnell (which will saddle us with mind blowing levels of borrowing/debt ) is implemented by Corbyn's Labour Party , if they get into power!

   •   

   •   In 1997, Labour inherited borrowing of 3% of GDP, with a Government Debt of 45% of GDP, which amounted to £350Billion & by 2008 it had risen to 5.1% and  51% of GDP amounting to £ 527 Billion.



Btw

I am arranging a group outing to Specsavers for those wearing Red Rose coloured spectacles - there is still room!

[Scott777]

In fact the IFS study that shows debt to GDP rising under labours plans shows it going up by *more* under the conservatives  "hard brexit" plans.  

Over what period?

[Barry]

England before 1975 must have been a wonderful place: streets paved with gold, full employment, wonderful housing and all that. And now we're promised the same — we will be brought up out of the affliction of the EU unto the land of the Johnsonites and the Faragists and the Rees-Moggorites and the Hannanites and the Hivites and the Goveshites, unto a land flowing with milk and honey...

In 1975 I was working in a bank. It was my 3rd job, I easily moved from one to another. I had just got married and bought my own house, 2 up 2 down semi. I didn't think it was at all bad. I worked hard and with Mrs help we improved our situation.

As you were an egg, you have no experiences to recount.  ::