General Brexit discussion thread

[BeElBeeBub]

Thats not what head people in the eu are telling us.....



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and a view from germany...



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The route may very well not be instant which i doubt , but it will be worth it to get out of your union.

Even if the EU fast tracked the Scottish accession process Scotland still has to leave the UK first



Before that can happen you need to persuade the Westminster gov to allow a ref - assuming the coming election puts a Con majority in place resulting in a hard brexit at the end of 2020 it's doubtful they would be amenable to an indy ref2.



So that's 2025 you have to wait for and then hope for a majority in England who will vote for an indy ref2. At best you might get the SNP Inna position to demand one as support for whoever in coalition.



Then there's the drag to set one up and hold it.



Let's say a year.  So at best by the end of 2026 you might have an indy ref 2 result for independent Scotland.



Then the negotiations on.seperation will take place. Unlike a50 there is no automatic exit from the UK.  It will have to be negotiated. Given the atmosphere around it you're probably looking at 2 years absolute minimum.



So now it's 2028 and Scotland archives independence!



In the intervening 8 years (and this is very uncertain) the UK has diverged from the EU, so Scotland is no longer in the same place from a regulatory perspective and then there is the issue of the €.  Maybe scotland can bulky through that but you're still looking at 2030ish for an independent Scotland rejoining the EU



This seems like a very masochistic route to independence.



If you don't mind me saying you have a very odd perspective.



On the one hand you hate the English so much you are prepared to endure a decade of turmoil just to get out of a union with them.



And on the other you are desperate that the narrow victory in an unsafe advisory referendum is carried out so as their precious democracy is respected.

[BeElBeeBub]

The 2014 referndum result was implemeted , scotland has been in the uk for 5 years now post referendum. Democracy has been satisfied.



meanwhile england voted to leave in 2016 , yet has been forced to remain in the eu anti democratically these past nigh on 4 years , democracy hasnt been satisfied.

So your stance is that under no circumstances can you have a referendum on an issue until the first result has been implemented?  Is time not important at all?



How long after the "once in a generation" indy ref must we wait for that to be discharged?



Logically the simple "we implemented the result by remaining" argument falls down because that was implemented the moment the result was announced.  Therefore if time is not a factor a 2nd indy ref could have occured straight after and if that resulted in "remain" that would have been discharged immediately paving the way for a 3rd ref and so on.



So time *must* be a factor is the referendum mandate becoming less certain.  If we still hadn't left the EU in 20 years would we still have to leave?



I can buy the argument how simply ignoring the 2016 result would be anti democratic.



I cannot see how holding another ref is anti democratic.  What happens if (and it is a big if) the result was 70/30 remain? Would that still not overturn the 2016 result?   What if we had 5 ref's and each one produced a remain result? Does the 2016 result still hold?

[Conchúr]

Im simply pointing out i speak gaidhlig ,  have a gaidhlig name  , but dont feel the need to post under a gaidhlig name to somehow try and heighten my scottish credentials. Why do you? You are posting on an english speaking forum , so why not simply use conor instead?









it makes perfect sense to anyone with a hint of intelligence and ounce of political nous.







No i think english remainers are undemocratic  , and i stand by that. 100 % .No one likes a bad loser.







I completely oppose the brexit deal to take scotland out of the eu , as it is against our nations wishes and vote. However , i completely support the brexit deal for england , the english voted to leave , so i support democracy and say they should be allowed to democratically leave.

Whats difficult to understand about that?







I oppose any brexit deal for scotland as it isnt what we voted for. If boris deal , or no deal happen , and it is forced upon soctland , then it wont be my doing. Unionistys need to then take a long hard look at their position of wanting scotland to be in such a union where we constantly have english governments and referendum results foisted on us against our wishes.



Voting no in 2014 brought brexit on scotland , not my pulling you up for anti democraticaly trying to top england leaving the eu against englands popular vote in 2016.







looks like the tories are happy to cast northern ireland adrift as i told you on the old forum , constantly bleating about a uk border which will no longer exist in that scenario is pointless and irrelevant to the vast majority of people in scotland england or wales.







My position is that clear a monkey could be trained to understand it.



I want the uk to end , scotland to become independent and stay in the eu , and wish the people of england all the best leaving the eu and think they can eventually make a success of it. Only someone of a pro union stance and disposition couldnt understand this .







What a pile of utter horsemanure.



This is the sort of paragraph you often write which makes me question your irishness conor hiding behind a gaelic name.



Scotland wouldnt be getting shoehorned into brexit  if scotland was an independent country. Instead because we are in an unfair and unequal union with the english nation , they are forcing us out of the eu becuase they voted to.



If scotland was an indy country in a union with england in an organisation like the eu , we could veto england from doing this to us. Instead we are forced out because the english electorate is bigger than ours . Imagine if 80 million germans used the same tactic to force something on 55 million english ?



Would the english accept that? like feck they would.



So brexit is a perfect illustration of what i have been arguing about all my adult life , why scotland should be free of this unequal union.



The very fact i have to explain this to some so called irishman apparently in dublin beggars belief. Ireland , the country that for 8 centuries fought against english rule  , had rebellion after rebellion until they finally broke free in 1922 , now apparently telling us in scotland we cant use brexit to do the same and must somehow not just stay in the union , but undemocratically argue for england to remain?



Feck off .







Here we go again , bottom of the barrel scraping time by conor once more.



Same as yer pal up the page , brexit isnt my fault doggy.



I didnt vote for it , nor did i force england to vote for it. So dont insinuate its somehow my fault .Im not forcing brexit on anyone , so dont try and deflect any blame onto me ya cheeky fecker.



You failed miserably , being such an unconvincing wanker , to persuade the english to stay in the eu . If they want to leave , then best of luck to them i say.



..and if your precious union is collateral damage in the process ,tough feckin titty.

Bloody hell man, you must need a full wall of diagrams to keep track of your position on Brexit. I have never seen anyone so convinced in the clarity of a position which is so plainly unclear. The contradictions are so astoundingly stark that when I suggested in a previous post that you're possibly being disingenuous, that was actually a compliment — because my God, your stance on Brexit is an absolute mess.



Given what I've managed to salvage from the usual car crash of ad hominem attacks above, let's once again recap that stance:



1.  You think that Remainers are moaning anti-democratic obstructionists of Brexit;

2. You opposed Deal 1 because you believe it was a bad deal for Scotland;

3. You oppose Deal 2 because you believe it is a bad deal for Scotland;

4. So Remainers are moaning anti-democratic obstructionists of Brexit despite the fact that you also oppose each deal which has been tabled so far;

5. You would however support a deal which allows Scotland to stay in the EU while England etc leave the EU — a deal which you know full well that Westminster will never even table never mind agree to (because you know that NI was only given special dispensation because of the border issue);

6. So Remainers are moaning anti-democratic obstructionists of Brexit despite the fact that you also oppose each deal which has been agreed so far but want to see a deal which you know full well won't even be tabled;



7.  So, given the fact that you are opposing the current deal and would prefer to see a deal which is not realistic, we therefore come to the logical conclusion that you — by pushing for a deal which you know won't happen and claiming that Remain arguments are anti democratic — are supporting No Deal;



8. You opposed Deal 1 and Deal 2 because they were bad deals for Scotland, and yet No Deal will be a bad 'deal' for Scotland. So you are opposed to two bad deals for Scotland while your stance would make another bad outcome for Scotland (No Deal) inevitable — an outcome which may even be worse for Scotland than either of the deals so far;



9. Regardless of all that, you still think Remainers are moaning anti-democratic obstructionists despite the fact that (a) they are arguing against making Scotland undergo Deal 1, Deal 2 or No Deal and (b) they are arguing for Scotland to stay in the EU....which is what you claim to want as part of a deal which you would support.



10. Sooooooo you don't want a deal which you think is bad for Scotland —— the deals so far have been bad for Scotland —— you would only support a deal which involves Scotland remaining in the EU while England leaves —— you know this won't happen —— No Deal is the logical outcome if this is your stance —— No Deal is not good for Scotland but for some baffling reason you opt to prefer this over Deal 1 or Deal 2 —— Remainers argue against any of these bad deals / No Deals for Scotland and support Scotland remaining in the EU (which you say you want) —— but yeah they are moaning anti democratic obstructionists of Brexit and you apparently aren't.



Now....are you going to keep insulting everyone's intelligence and pretend that you actually debate in good faith on the topic of Brexit...or are you going to have the courage to say what you so painfully obviously think: you want nothing more than an utter clusterf**k to emerge from Brexit, regardless of the damage it does to any country of the UK — because this will make Scottish independence much easier to argue for?

[Stevlin]

Stevlins view that scotland should not be allowed the same status as northern ireland is a view shared by just 26%.



So not only is stevlin making a mockery of his 4 year position that all the uk must leave the eu , now that he agrees northern ireland is staying , he is in a tiny minority that think scotland shouldnt get the same deal.



 

It seems that Thomas  is  still apparently, unable to recognise, what sensible people easily recognise, that NI, UNLIKE SCOTLAND, ENGLAND and WALES , is the ONLY UK country that shares a border with the EU. Likewise, he doesn't appear to have referenced the meaning of 'temporary', and 'transitional'....presumably therefore, that worsens his ability to understand that subsequently, ALL constituent countries of the UK WILL be out of the EU......and THEN, and only then, will Brexit have been achieved.

 He also appears to ignore the fact that despite NOT sharing the UK/EU border , as NI does - that is  NO REASON WHATSOEVER, for the other 3 constituent countries,  or at least Scotland, also 'benefitting' from the  transitional arrangement.

  His much vaunted comments of possessing  geographical knowledge clearly cannot apply to the possession of  common sense, as he seems to believe that  being adjacent to the EU/UK border is irrelevant.

 If he continues to believe that  Scotland has the basis for claiming  the same 'transitional' arrangement as NI - then perhaps his geographical knowledge is not as good as he portrays!

[Streetwalker]

Farage has pulled his candidates from Tory seats won in the last election . This should give Johnson a decent chance of getting a working majority . Seems something has changed behind doors with guarantees given . If true well done Farage ,with his support we will leave sooner rather than later .



https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1203027/Brexit-News-Nigel-Farage-update-latest-Boris-Johnson-today-general-election-Party-today">https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/12030 ... arty-today">https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1203027/Brexit-News-Nigel-Farage-update-latest-Boris-Johnson-today-general-election-Party-today

[Stevlin]

Why?



You came out with some limp wristed excuse mumbling about northern ireland sharing a border with an eu country while scotland doesnt.



So why isnt Gibraltar getting the same deal? They share a border with an eu country , and although unlike northern ireland they arent part of the uk ,(not that you knew that of course) they voted in the brexit referendum with a 95% remain vote.?



None of your weak pathetic excuses actually stack up to close scrutiny , never mind your non existent geography skills.

Really - well your arguments are absolutely 'limp headed'. Your non-stop whining about NI having preferential treatment compared to Scotland just illustrates that you haven't a fecking clue!! Anybody who cannot see that the NI/Eire relations are directly  affected by Brexit, with regard to the border and the operation of the GFA  - unlike Scotland, and the rest of the UK.

 Incidentally, prize doomsdayer, with a permanent bellyache to suit, Gibraltar were involved in the referendum, with their vote being fed into the South West England regional count area - and just like that of Scotland, and several  regions of  England - their specific regional 'result' was subordinate to the TOTAL UK count, so , high time you stopped  your constant bleating!.....baa,baa..

[Thomas]

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2019-11-08/Regional%20voting%20intention%20Scotland-01.png">

The SNP continue to dominate in Scotland, having actually increased their share of the vote from 37% in 2017 to 42% now. Tory support has fallen seven points to 22%, while Labour support has collapsed from 27% to just 12%, meaning the party is currently in fourth place behind the Lib Dems (13%).

Should this figure remain the same on election day it will be the worst Labour result in Scotland for more than 100 years.

[/u][/b]



its only thomas who hates labour in scotland honest boys and girls...... ::  :roll:

[Thomas]

::



I'm glad to set you right Tommy, it's a pleasure. Yep you know you're just still reflecting your own suicidal tendencies back onto me...and possibly your hidden contempt for the Scottish people by hoping Johnson wins.

England makes up 80 % of the constituencies elected to westminster.



I cant do anything about who england votes into power , which is why i want independence. If boris johnson wins power in england , which wins him the uk , it wont be down to us in scotland dynamis.



it will be down to the state of the english oppostion in your country , and your feeble arguments.



im not reflecting anything back at you dynamis. Im trying hard to get my party elected , and i havent any hidden contempt for the scottish people .



just a great sadness we have put up with this shitty union for three hundred years , and great regret we didnt vote for independence in 2014.



i also have great faith in them for the future.

Lol I bet your fellow Scots would agree that your arguments are off the trolley nuts... and true kamikaze stuff from a novel.

you call me kamikaze because i dont like the labour party? The labour party that did untold damage to scotland over the last 80 years , and stood against us in 2014?



Sure dynamis , my fellow countrymen think im that off my rocker hating labour labour are now polling fourth in scotland behind the lib dems. :roll:



seems my hatred of labour is in very good company....

Anyway, that's enough now.. I know you would like to keep on boasting of false dichotomies but it gets boring after a bit. Good luck Tommo and don't let that nasty man Corbo steal your lunch!

You run away then dynamis , and dont worry about wurzel .



take care dynamis and try not to slit your wrists anymore in despair... :roll:  ::

[Borg Refinery]

::



I'm glad to set you right Tommy, it's a pleasure. Yep you know you're just still reflecting your own suicidal tendencies back onto me...and possibly your hidden contempt for the Scottish people by hoping Johnson wins.



Lol I bet your fellow Scots would agree that your arguments are off the trolley nuts... and true kamikaze stuff from a novel.



You come straight out of a comic book. ::



Anyway, that's enough now.. I know you would like to keep on boasting of false dichotomies but it gets boring after a bit. Good luck Tommo and don't let that nasty man Corbo steal your lunch! ::

[Thomas]

Of course I can't convince you on this small interwebby forum Tom... no one can. You have possibly the most insanely stupid self-reflecting arguments I think I've ever read.

Honestly, suicidal... :: ..you are the one who wants Bloris in no 10 ya reet nutter.

 :: im glad i have a winner such as you to set me right dynamis. :roll:

I can't imagine what possesses you to think that you'll get scot indy in the next few months..or even after that. Even though I detest Bliar..he gave you devo and Holyrood pal, so your hate for labour is once again pretty crazy.

please dont trot out that old labour myth. It was forced on the uk by the council of europe , it fell into the lap of john major who was voted out before he could do anything about it , and blair had to press ahead reluctantly.



Need i remind you the snp didnt want devolution , they thought it would set back the indy movement which was riding high in the polls at the time after 17 years or tory rule , and they were proved correct.

I don't like Labour particularly, I've only voted for them once in my lifetime to sum things up for you. And that was against Boris as well, in the London mayoral election.



In fact, I'm voting Labour once again..against Bloris purely because, as bad as they are, they're still a billion billion light years ahead of whatever backwards unreality he's stuck in.

However bad you think mr johnson is , seriously dynalis im not wanting you to get all upset and suicidal , but taking a wild stab in the dark i dont think wurzel is going to win mate.



just so you know before yet again backing a loser once more....

Now, you can think the electorate always get everything right - or you can accept that they make mistakes and are notoriously fickle, as most of those of us in the real world understand. Which is it to be?

yet more false dichotomies being offered up by you again ?



You really hate the people of england dont you?



Honestly dynamis let it go mate its not worth it. Its tearing you apart and eating you up in side.



its only politics mate. ::

[Borg Refinery]

Of course I can't convince you on this small interwebby forum Tom... no one can. You have possibly the most insanely stupid self-reflecting arguments I think I've ever read.



Honestly, suicidal... :: ..you are the one who wants Bloris in no 10 ya reet nutter.



I can't imagine what possesses you to think that you'll get scot indy in the next few months..or even after that. Even though I detest Bliar..he gave you devo and Holyrood pal, so your hate for labour is once again pretty crazy.



I don't like Labour particularly, I've only voted for them once in my lifetime to sum things up for you. And that was against Boris as well, in the London mayoral election.



In fact, I'm voting Labour once again..against Bloris purely because, as bad as they are, they're still a billion billion light years ahead of whatever backwards unreality he's stuck in.



Now, you can think the electorate always get everything right - or you can accept that they make mistakes and are notoriously fickle, as most of those of us in the real world understand. Which is it to be?

[Thomas]

As for Tommy's post, he seems to have this mistaken idea that the English are democratic and know their minds...

Wow , what a kick in the teeth for your fellow countrymen.



..and you call me sad and bitter .? :roll:



They knew their minds enough to vote for brexit despite having everything thrown at them  , and know their minds to not vote in a nasty anti semite marxist into ten downing street.



Imagine me , a scottish nationalist , having to defend england and the english from the bitter rants of an englishman who cant accept democracy.?



unbelievable. :shock:  :-?

[Thomas]

Actually Labour has been very clear on the subject, that the media/press are shy about reporting it is probably why you don't know:-

its not just the nasty press and media papa , there are a mass of labour party members mps and former mps not to mention former labour leader in scotland who say jeremy corbyn isnt fit to lead labour never mind the uk , and his policy on brexit is extremely unclear .



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and on brexit...



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[Thomas]

I think that abstention suits Labour's position currently, so you are well suited. Because as far as Brexit is concerned, Labour don't know their fence sitting rear ends from their fiddler's elbows.

:thup:



sorry barry there are no likes on this forum , so a thumbs up will have to do. well said.

[Thomas]

Actually Labour has been very clear on the subject, that the media/press are shy about reporting it is probably why you don't know:-



https://i0.wp.com/voxpoliticalonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/191108-Labour-Brexit-policy.jpg?ssl=1">

 ::



...but papa , i thought you dont support labour?



Honestly you and dynamis are a two man comedy act.



imagine being that scared of telling people you support a political party you have to keep lying about voting for them? :roll:



labour are that clear about brexit , polls show the majority of the public dont have a feckin clue about what their brexit policy actually is..



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