General Brexit discussion thread

[cromwell]

I would say cromwell , as an outsider looking in , dont let anyone railroad you into accepting a brexit version you dont want.



Its typical of what we have heard over the last four years this whole discussion , where history is being re written to suit an english remain agenda.

TBH Thomas when you quote that statements have been made and are then asked for evidence which you supply (dates....when do they think? 1066)  and they are then dismissed as worthless and are told your argument has been destroyed you know that there is no meaningful exchange possible.

I dont agree with brexit for scotland  but support it for your country.



The more i read about johnsons WA  , the more i am coming to despise it.I have just read this morning about a house of lords committee report that there is a provision within johnsons WAB that allows him to amend or repeal the scotland act 1998 , government of wales act 2006 , or the northern ireland act 1998 without parliamentary approval.

Actually Thomas I did think Devolution was a good idea as all three other nations had been treated abysmally at times but there should've been an English parliament too and a HoC cut down to size dealing with defence ,international issues a federation if you like but in any event the genie is out of the bottle and any attempt to repeal it would be futile with or without commons approval.

[Borg Refinery]

From memory as i said , the leave campaign wanted to cherry pick the best parts of the single market , and throw away all the cons like FOM , ECJ etc etc as we already discussed. So in effect a deal which allowed brexit uk to cherry pick. I think that is fair to say that. So we agree?

Agreed

However , as discussed you cannot force the eu to agree to any deal they dont want , so i think it also reasonable to say that the logical outcome of leaving the eu , and failing to agree a deal is a no deal exit. If you say you want to be reasonable about the whole thing you must concede that point.

I would absolutely concede your point were there any mention by the leave campaigns of a no deal Brexit.



And I will go one further - IF May the remainer had tried harder to obtain a good deal - and you must concede that she was bloody useless & abysmal as is countrywide consensus - but IF she had tried hard to agree a good deal and it failed due to EU intransigence; then I'd say fair enough - No-Deal Brexit it is for us.



But that did not happen did it? Everyone hated her deal, from the right Brexiteers to the BINOers.



And the same is true with Bojo's deal.



Look, me and ultra-eurosceptic Tory Brexiters don't agree on much but at least we can agree on that.



Will you not concede these points? Surely they are eminently fair & reasonable like your points are?

Even farage from memory was saying the eu need the uk more than the uk needs them , so a deal would be inevitable.( but now accepts that if a mutually agreeable deal isnt possible , then no deal it is)

But we don't know if it's possible because we had horrible negotiators on our side who were thoroughly useless.



Maybe you're right, maybe even if we had good negotiators it would have been impossible - but we can never know that can we?

Whatever you say brexit means , and what you think people voted for , its clear to me among the many main issues was stopping freedom of movement , ecj jurisdiction and as we said , membership of the customs union. Those were the red lines , with ending the CU one of the main reasons behind brexit , as once free , it allowed the uk to do its own trade deals. Indeed , this is pretty much the main and only point of the whole brexit issue.

The problem with all that, is it's misleading guile - we actually can already do trade deals and limit FoM and nearly everything else that they lie to us about.



That's a big reason why it's so dishonest in my humble opinion.

So labours idea that the english public will have to face some dodgy choice between BRINO and remain in any future referendum is laughable rubbish.

But the problem is, I don't really agree with Lab's position either so there's no reason to keep bringing this up.

The majority of people in england are determined to leave the eu , and woebetide any political party that tries to stop them. I would imagine most english would prefer a deal that doesnt include accepting any of the red lines we have mentioned , but if not , then many on forums like this are saying they are prepared to hard brexit.



It seems like you havent learned any lessons over the last four years in my opinion. You told the english public brexit would be the end of the world , and they had to remain. They voted leave in overwhelming numbers.



Now your position(remainers) has shifted to you can have brexit ,  but f its no deal , it will be the end of the world. ........and they will do the same and stick two fingers up and support no deal.

Not my position, none of that is my position.



In 2016 I didn't vote for remain, in fact I abstained from it because the outright lies, deception and law-breaking on both sides is a matter of public record.



I'm not a 'remainer', I'm just realistic and straightforward about the whole thing.



IMHO mass abstention & spoilt balloting is a valid tactic in corrupt referenda and elections, and may be an idea if any future scot indyref is run; and it is clearly corrupt & manipulated.

The simple fact is the public have no trust in politicians , especially remainer politicians , the very people who have blocked the democratic vote of 2016 at every turn over the last 4 years.

Agreed.

Painting no deal brexit as the end of the world shows someone with little vision and thought.

Yeh never said it was; projection.

Its merely a continuation of a propaganda campaign that has failed miserably , with its limp wristed project fear , over the last four years and helped secure brexit in the first place because no one takes liars seriously. (as in the remain campaign)

Its the boy who cried wolf scenario.

And I agree - the Remain campaign broke the law, as you say they ran with project fear and Cameron ran the whole thing abysmally.



The problem is that you won't stop lumping me in with them, my ideas are wholly different.



I would rather not have a 2nd ref, it is messy, it would be preferable if they just brought us back a supportable deal.

[Thomas]

Furthermore,  I have specified why Scotland cannot be treated in the same manner as NI

Why?



You came out with some limp wristed excuse mumbling about northern ireland sharing a border with an eu country while scotland doesnt.



So why isnt Gibraltar getting the same deal? They share a border with an eu country , and although unlike northern ireland they arent part of the uk ,( not that you knew that of course) they voted in the brexit referendum with a 95% remain vote.?



None of your weak pathetic excuses actually stack up to close scrutiny , never mind your non existent geography skills.

[Thomas]

Don't get the point?.....really what a surprise..........Rephrase it? no it'd be a waste of time.



And the Prime minister of the day saying "if you vote leave we are leaving the single market and the customs union" is weak.....like I said not worth the effort.

Bye  :hattip

I would say cromwell , as an outsider looking in , dont let anyone railroad you into accepting a brexit version you dont want.



Its typical of what we have heard over the last four years this whole discussion , where history is being re written to suit an english remain agenda.



I dont agree with brexit for scotland  but support it for your country.



The more i read about johnsons WA  , the more i am coming to despise it.I have just read this morning about a house of lords committee report that there is a provision within johnsons WAB that allows him to amend or repeal the scotland act 1998 , government of wales act 2006 , or the northern ireland act 1998 without parliamentary approval.



If you believe in democracy as i do , whatever you think of devolution personally , the fact of the matter the vast vast majority of scottish people support and voted for devolution , and for johnson to be able to amend or repeal it , without even a parliamentary vote is dictatorship of banana republic stuff.



https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201920/ldselect/ldconst/21/21.pdf">https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/l ... /21/21.pdf">https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201920/ldselect/ldconst/21/21.pdf

Paragraph 82

There is no restriction on 8C powers being used to . . .

amend or repeal the Scotland Act 1998, the Government of Wales Act 2006 or the Northern Ireland Act 1998

[/b]



The last time in my lifetime there was wall to wall support across the scottish nation for independence was in the days of the thatcher and major governments in the eighties and early nineties.



This is the sort of conservative stunt that is going to bring that about yet again. Imagine brussells having the ability to amend or repeal government of england by closing down westminster at whim?



The english would be out in the streets preparing for war.



They should be called the conservative and anti union party , because every time they are in power , these islands start to break apart politically.

[Thomas]

No they did not and Thomas concedes that point.



Equally, he is right that BINO is anti-democratic on the flipside.



There is no way of justifying no deal Brexit, even Javid on Marr was forced - as chancellor - to concede that there was no single upside to no deal and that it was the worst possible outcome.



Yes, he conceded that.

From memory as i said , the leave campaign wanted to cherry pick the best parts of the single market , and throw away all the cons like FOM , ECJ etc etc as we already discussed. So in effect a deal which allowed brexit uk to cherry pick. I think that is fair to say that. So we agree?



However , as discussed you cannot force the eu to agree to any deal they dont want , so i think it also reasonable to say that the logical outcome of leaving the eu , and failing to agree a deal is a no deal exit. If you say you want to be reasonable about the whole thing you must concede that point.



Even farage from memory was saying the eu need the uk more than the uk needs them , so a deal would be inevitable.( but now accepts that if a mutually agreeable deal isnt possible , then no deal it is)



Whatever you say brexit means , and what you think people voted for , its clear to me among the many main issues was stopping freedom of movement , ecj jurisdiction and as we said , membership of the customs union. Those were the red lines , with ending the CU one of the main reasons behind brexit , as once free , it allowed the uk to do its own trade deals. Indeed , this is pretty much the main and only point of the whole brexit issue.



So labours idea that the english public will have to face some dodgy choice between BRINO and remain in any future referendum is laughable rubbish.



The majority of people in england are determined to leave the eu , and woebetide any political party that tries to stop them. I would imagine most english would prefer a deal that doesnt include accepting any of the red lines we have mentioned , but if not , then many on forums like this are saying they are prepared to hard brexit.



It seems like you havent learned any lessons over the last four years in my opinion. You told the english public brexit would be the end of the world , and they had to remain. They voted leave in overwhelming numbers.



Now your position(remainers) has shifted to you can have brexit ,  but f its no deal , it will be the end of the world. ........and they will do the same and stick two fingers up and support no deal.



The simple fact is the public have no trust in politicians , especially remainer politicians , the very people who have blocked the democratic vote of 2016 at every turn over the last 4 years.



Painting no deal brexit as the end of the world shows someone with little vision and thought.



Its merely a continuation of a propaganda campaign that has failed miserably , with its limp wristed project fear , over the last four years and helped secure brexit in the first place because no one takes liars seriously. (as in the remain campaign)



Its the boy who cried wolf scenario.

[Borg Refinery]

Don't get the point?.....really what a surprise..........Rephrase it? no it'd be a waste of time.



And the Prime minister of the day saying "if you vote leave we are leaving the single market and the customs union" is weak.....like I said not worth the effort.

Bye  :hattip

And even as the PM...it's 1 comment. Yes, one comment...



A remainer, Cameron's one single comment, is proof that all leave campaigns fought on the promise of no deal?



Very, very weak stuff..and you know it.



No they did not and Thomas concedes that point.



Equally, he is right that BINO is anti-democratic on the flipside.



There is no way of justifying no deal Brexit, even Javid on Marr was forced - as chancellor - to concede that there was no single upside to no deal and that it was the worst possible outcome.



Yes, he conceded that.



I note the Russian leak that's just come out.... but best ignore that too.



 :hattip  Buh bye.

[cromwell]

Sorry but your weak video and goalpost shifting got refuted, shredded, dismissed, chopped into little pieces and burned on the fire.







Sorry but that's inane & irrelevant - did not vote for remain in 2016 pal.







Could you rephrase that? I don't get your point.

Don't get the point?.....really what a surprise..........Rephrase it? no it'd be a waste of time.



And the Prime minister of the day saying "if you vote leave we are leaving the single market and the customs union" is weak.....like I said not worth the effort.

Bye  :hattip

[Borg Refinery]

Only on your terms

Sorry but your weak video and goalpost shifting got refuted, shredded, dismissed, chopped into little pieces and burned on the fire.

Ahh so in true remain fashion it goes from none who voted leave knew what they were voting for to you knowing what they didn't want

Sorry but that's inane & irrelevant - did not vote for remain in 2016 pal.

I don't think so,the only telling here is you telling what was or wasn't voted for and by who.....and you couldn't shred with an industrial shredder.

Could you rephrase that? I don't get your point.

[Thomas]

https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/dumpscot.jpg">

Because overall, the voters of England – that's Remainers and Leavers combined – would drop Scotland like a hot potato if it were somehow to be necessary in order to secure Brexit. (And remember, very nearly half of them don't even WANT Brexit. How much must those guys hate us?) Just a third of English voters don't think it'd be worth ditching Scotland to get out of the EU.



If you exclude don't-know responses, those numbers come out, ironically, to 55-45.

[/b]







and we already know from polling evidence english voters are quite happy to ditch scotland ( and northern ireland) to get brexit done.



Seems its practically all over bar stevlins wailing......... ::

[Thomas]

https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/status1-1.jpg">



In that selfsame panelbase poll , only tory voters in scotland were against scotland getting the same deal as northern ireland.

[Thomas]

Stevlins view that scotland should not be allowed the same status as northern ireland is a view shared by just 26%.



So not only is stevlin making a mockery of his 4 year position that all the uk must leave the eu , now that he agrees northern ireland is staying , he is in a tiny minority that think scotland shouldnt get the same deal.



 

[Thomas]

so lets see stevlin how the majority of scots view northern ireland special status in the eu....



https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/status0.jpg">

panelbase poll



By a margin of more than two to one , the majority of scots want the same status for scotland to stay in the eu as northern ireland gets....... :hattip

[Thomas]

You are merely again illustrating your abject ignorance Thomas. It has been repeatedly pointed out that the UK's membership of the EU is via the UK.....so if/when Brexit is delivered , then Scotland, being part of the UK WILL be leaving the EU too.....

but not northern ireland ........ ::

In addition, I don't need a poster to point out that a 4 million or thereabouts MAJORITY indicated a wish for the UK to LEAVE the EU......

and it is the UK that currently holds membership of the EU - which is WHY the UK held a UK referendum.....Simples. ( well for sensible people anyway)

but why isnt northern ireland leaving then stevlin? I mean i went into great detail , and you still cant answer why the irish part of the uk isnt leaving  , but you insist the scottish part must.



As i said stevlin , whatever you personally try and spew up over this forum to try and call an argument, its going to be a hard sell in scotland telling us we cant remain but northern ireland can.



Feckin brilliant.

[Stevlin]

would it help if instead of writing big words to you stevlin , i posted a big picture?



https://indyposterboy.scot/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/odd_man_out-600x432.jpg">

You are merely again illustrating your abject ignorance Thomas. It has been repeatedly pointed out that the UK's membership of the EU is via the UK.....so if/when Brexit is delivered , then Scotland, being part of the UK WILL be leaving the EU too.....

I do realise that you normally require huge posters to enable you to 'get the message', but I'm sure someone in Scotland will be able to explain it to you....after all, many Scots are very bright.

In addition, I don't need a poster to point out that a 4 million or thereabouts MAJORITY indicated a wish for the UK to LEAVE the EU......

and it is the UK that currently holds membership of the EU - which is WHY the UK held a UK referendum.....Simples. ( well for sensible people anyway)

[Thomas]

Well its a funny old world this strictly,suddenly the Corbyn being the SNP's last hope,has become almost saintly.

he has never been the snp first hope sheepy , but you knew that anyway didnt you? :thup: