General Brexit discussion thread

[Barry]

If you believe that every leave voter wanted a hard Brexit you will need evidence that assertion.

Stop putting words in my mouth.

If you want to write REMAIN where I voted LEAVE, that is your problem. The majority voted LEAVE, but we have not left, as everyone and their dog, knows.

[Ciaphas]

Obviously you can't read, then. Try specsavers.  :geek:

If you believe that every leave voter wanted a hard Brexit you will need evidence that assertion.

[Barry]

It's a valid question it seems your answer is 'mine'.

Obviously you can't read, then. Try specsavers.  :geek:

[Ciaphas]

You think you are being clever with that question?

Here's a dumb answer to your clever question..



The Leave version, not the Remain version of Brexit.

It's a valid question it seems your answer is 'mine'.

[Conchúr]

I'd love Lab to sign an indyref deal.You once again wrote "you dont support indyref" but that's another crock.



Why do you keep repeating stuff I've told you isn't true?



What's a good deal? The 'meat' of such a deal is ultra-complex and I don't agree with reducing it to soundbites, as we feel the weight of history on our shoulders. Nah but seriously we needed a deal that didn't trap us in the EU via the backstop.



I do not blame the EU for this - they were doing their job as good negotiators - it is May & Boris's fault.



You KNOW the REAL negotiation comes after the temporal WA and WAIB; that is the REAL deal, not the strawman WAIB.



..To go into detail about THAT deal requires pages and pages. It just does. But it's irrelevant anyway is it not? I said Lab and SNP should follow a different strategy if elected.



They should build an election pact; SNP in Dcotland, Lab in England, Plaid & Lab in Wales. They need to destroy Swinton's fake crap tactical vote pact.



Now stop lumping me in with those who espouse hate at the scots. And while you're at it, your sectarian stuff towards conchur is pretty badly reflecting on you.

In fairness, I wouldn't say he's being sectarian towards me at all — just rude, paranoid, ignorant and seemingly determined to believe that all Irish people must think the exact same way as his pals on Irish Internet forums. Those who don't fit his own little imagined mould of 'Irishness' are therefore accused of fakery.



So no, not sectarian at all (well at least not towards me anyway) but certainly Thomas deliberately sets out to insult me and even ends up accidentally insulting Irish people in the process — by virtue of his belief that we are all caricatures with the same opinions on everything.

[Conchúr]

This isnt the thread for it conor , but would you like me to give you a lecture on lenition as a phonetic phenomenon in the history of the celtic languages or would you prefer to google it yourself to try and further enhance that web of deceit you have spun about yourself?



It will take more than a gaelic name a and a bit of lenition where the letter h is put in after the lenitable consonants to convince me that you are merely some poor wee irish guy hiding behind his couch in dublin in terror of england apparently harming herself , whilst offering england some friendly advice in the process.

Yep, you are clearly very rattled. This is one of your weirder rants, and once more demonstrates your preference to hurl irrelevant insults and accusations (which have become ever more paranoid evidently) when frustrated by opposing arguments.



Conchúr is a translation of the name Conor, that's what my Irish teacher at school always called me anyway and, well, he was pretty fluent.  I don't pretend to be a full-on Gaeilgeoir, or a professor of linguistics — though I can still speak a wee bit. Though of course, I am slightly confused as to why you're making an issue of this or what you think it actually proves. Just another confusing rant where Thomas gets angry and jumps in head first.



Honestly man, it's getting a bit embarrassing watching you flail around with this nonsense.  What's next? I'm a Russian hacker?

[Borg Refinery]

I'd love Lab to sign an indyref deal.You once again wrote "you dont support indyref" but that's another crock.



Why do you keep repeating stuff I've told you isn't true?



What's a good deal? The 'meat' of such a deal is ultra-complex and I don't agree with reducing it to soundbites, as we feel the weight of history on our shoulders. Nah but seriously we needed a deal that didn't trap us in the EU via the backstop.



I do not blame the EU for this - they were doing their job as good negotiators - it is May & Boris's fault.



You KNOW the REAL negotiation comes after the temporal WA and WAIB; that is the REAL deal, not the strawman WAIB.



..To go into detail about THAT deal requires pages and pages. It just does. But it's irrelevant anyway is it not? I said Lab and SNP should follow a different strategy if elected.



They should build an election pact; SNP in Dcotland, Lab in England, Plaid & Lab in Wales. They need to destroy Swinton's fake crap tactical vote pact.



Now stop lumping me in with those who espouse hate at the scots. And while you're at it, your sectarian stuff towards conchur is pretty badly reflecting on you.

[Thomas]

Honestly, this is as pathetic as it gets. I mean, even your criticism of my name is stupid — it is my real name simply translated into Irish.

This isnt the thread for it conor , but would you like me to give you a lecture on lenition as a phonetic phenomenon in the history of the celtic languages or would you prefer to google it yourself to try and further enhance that web of deceit you have spun about yourself?



It will take more than a gaelic name a and a bit of lenition where the letter h is put in after the lenitable consonants to convince me that you are merely some poor wee irish guy hiding behind his couch in dublin in terror of england apparently harming herself , whilst offering england some friendly advice in the process.

[Thomas]

Look Thomas. I don't support BRINO or no deal, IMHO they're both pretty wrong - Bojo and Theresa both brought back terrible deals - it's their fault for not negotiating them properly on our behalf.



I'd like a good deal that is a decent compromise between the two sides. That is fair enough and not 'anti-democratic'; as I explained before - a 2nd ref is a waste of space without reforming the electoral commission which we can both accept is unlikely to ever happen, equally the revoke option is anti-democratic, so that leaves us with 'no deal' - which like BRINO as you pointed out - noone voted for.

so you and many who support labour for example keep saying , you insist you support some imaginary brexit deal but cant tell us what that is.



lets hear it then  , put some meat on the bones.



We know the snp position , we know tories , the liberals ,and all the other parties position on brexit and their view of the way forward.



We dont know yours , and we dont know labours.



i have stated my clear position , now tell us yours instead of hiding behind imaginary compromise.

That is the crux here. I really am not sure why you seem so determined to 'have a go' purely for the sake of it. I do not like anti-democratic measures whichever side perpetrates them. Oh and in reply to your iraq war point on some other thread - I agree, yet the Tories also supported the war then later decried it; perfectly illustrating their wholesale hypocrisy.

We all  know what the tories are , the keir starmer video encapsulates that perfectly. However unlike labour they dont pretend to be whiter than white  , they stab you from the front while labour stab you in the back.



have you people learned nothing from the scottish ref of 2014?

IMHO none of the options are good or democratic from here-on in. The only truly democratic thing to do if Labour or a Lab-SNP etc coalition get in, is probably to negotiate a third WA if Ursula allows it. And later on, to call a second ref and possibly rejoin if remain wins.

The only way labour will get propped up by the snp will be if they sign a legally binding agreement to agree to a scottish indy ref before brexit is sorted. I would expect joanna cherry and others in the snp legal team to draft this , otherwise i say no way to the snp supporting labour.



I would also say this mere discussion between is is the reason why labour are going to get humped in england and scotland , you are an irrelevance i nscotland whom most people despise , and in england you are seen as marxists , terrorist lovers , who will accept being propped up by the snp who want to end the uk. The english electorate are going to slaughter you.

As I said, there are no good options.

aye there is scottish indy and brexit for england. You might not agree with them , but thats tough if they happen.



Democracy is above party politcs , and brexit is the will of the people of england.



Who are we to stop the english getting what they democratically voted for?

[Borg Refinery]

Thats isnt what i am saying at al and you well know it.  The time to amend democracy is before the event takes place , not turn a blind eye to those demacratic deficiencies  , vote , then if you lose , start running around scremaing you cant accept flaws in democracy because you are a bad loser.



Implement the result , satisfy democracy as it stands however flawed , then tinker with referendums before they happen in future.





no one voted for brexit in name only.





 They didnt but negotiations is a two way street , you cannot force the eu to agree to what leave wanted.



Therefore no deal is the logical outcome of voting brexit if agreement cannot be made,  but as it happens johnson has an agreement , while remainers cannot agree the best way forward except to stay in the eu against the democratic vote.







 ::



Except your remian / leave tribalism.



At least i am honest and consistent unlike you you feckin hypocrite and anti democrat. :hattip







what about theresa mays deal?







diversion . Im merely highlighting the fact your absurd proposition that brexit belongs to the right wing and billionaires has more holes than a tea bag.







supporting democracy is spiteing myself??? ::  :oops:



Guilty as charged your honour , im a democrat who supports democracy.

Look Thomas. I don't support BRINO or no deal, IMHO they're both pretty wrong - Bojo and Theresa both brought back terrible deals - it's their fault for not negotiating them properly on our behalf.



I'd like a good deal that is a decent compromise between the two sides. That is fair enough and not 'anti-democratic'; as I explained before - a 2nd ref is a waste of space without reforming the electoral commission which we can both accept is unlikely to ever happen, equally the revoke option is anti-democratic, so that leaves us with 'no deal' - which like BRINO as you pointed out - noone voted for.



That is the crux here. I really am not sure why you seem so determined to 'have a go' purely for the sake of it. I do not like anti-democratic measures whichever side perpetrates them. Oh and in reply to your iraq war point on some other thread - I agree, yet the Tories also supported the war then later decried it; perfectly illustrating their wholesale hypocrisy.



You have hinted that Corbyn has 'betrayed' his true Brexit beliefs. I do think he was a Brexiter and he was browbeaten into his current position, yet no deal doesn't bear thinking about, so I'm not really sure what to make of his position. Don't think he knows what to make of it either.



IMHO none of the options are good or democratic from here-on in. The only truly democratic thing to do if Labour or a Lab-SNP etc coalition get in, is probably to negotiate a third WA if Ursula allows it. And later on, to call a second ref and possibly rejoin if remain wins.



IIRC that has been many in Lab's position anyway. Itis contradictory self-defeating and stupid as all hell...but so is this whole mess. As I said, there are no good options.

[Thomas]

Honestly, this is as pathetic as it gets. I mean, even your criticism of my name is stupid — it is my real name simply translated into Irish.

i know better than you what it feckin means , i speak the feckin language.



Who give a feck what irish name you hide behind.?

People do that a lot in Ireland. But sure you can double check with your Irish cousins and your fellow arbiters of the collective Irish world view over on those forums you apparently frequent.

what people dont do in ireland unlike you is try to desperately keep england in the eu.

Your stance on Brexit makes very little sense.

it makes perfect sense as a scot , an independance supporter and a democrat. It wont make sense to a british remainer unionist though.

You rush into your posts without thinking them through, because you're always in such a rush to make your arguments relevant to Scottish Independence that you take careless stances to make the link. Your previous post I responded to was a perfect example.

so you keep saying yet i manage to skewer your pathetic arguments time and again , like the belter you came out with no one in ireland wants reunification , or the equally laughable post of yours a border poll couldnt be held .



you are a bullshitter of the highest order conor whose arguments  , from your anglo point of view are all over the place.

That's always how I know I have people rattled.

 ::



of course you do conor , meanwhile in the real world we are heading into a brexit election where in 6 weeks your worst nightmare of democracy being enacted might very well come true.....



I can hear you rattling across the straights of moyle ::( or should that be the english border?) :roll:

[Conchúr]

::



Ah yes the ever mature and level headed conor , posting in his disguise as an irishman apparently in dublin , apparently originally from the north , where he was chased out by those nasty loyalists who used to call him a taig and throw bottles at him while spitting at the poor wee soul , now spends his life on uk forums bleating for england to stay in the eu.



My position as a democrat is light years above you , my political stance is consistently light years ahead of you , while at least i have the honesty and integrity to post under my real name as a scot and a scottish indy supporter to argue my politics in a consistent and logical manner without having to hide behind some plastic paddy sock puppet determined to keep england in the eu for some strange unknown reason .



As someone who is steeped in irish history politics and knowledge , who has family in ireland , regularly visits and is a member of many irish political groups and forums , yours as i have told you before is the most entirely non irish anglo viewpoint of anyone i have met or heard of on the island of ireland.



Not one of your inconsistent arguments bears any scrutiny.

Honestly, this is as pathetic as it gets. I mean, even your criticism of my name is stupid — it is my real name simply translated into Irish.  People do that a lot in Ireland. But sure you can double check with your Irish cousins and your fellow arbiters of the collective Irish world view over on those forums you apparently frequent.



Your stance on Brexit makes very little sense.  It makes pretty much no sense on face value, and even in the body of your long ranting angry posts you have made it clear that even when explained fully it is still inconsistent and illogical. You rush into your posts without thinking them through, because you're always in such a rush to make your arguments relevant to Scottish Independence that you take careless stances to make the link. Your previous post I responded to was a perfect example.



But yeah, keep firing those insults and accusations.  That's always how I know I have people rattled.

[Barry]

Which version of Brexit are they supposed to deliver?

You think you are being clever with that question?

Here's a dumb answer to your clever question..



The Leave version, not the Remain version of Brexit.

[Thomas]

That's a daft argument. Because they got it wrong before we have to accept getting it wrong a million more times.



No. And no they are not the same things - NDBrexit will be far worse for Scotland, England etc than all of that. It is an absurd argument.

Thats isnt what i am saying at al and you well know it.  The time to amend democracy is before the event takes place , not turn a blind eye to those demacratic deficiencies  , vote , then if you lose , start running around scremaing you cant accept flaws in democracy because you are a bad loser.



Implement the result , satisfy democracy as it stands however flawed , then tinker with referendums before they happen in future.

No. No one voted for no deal.

no one voted for brexit in name only.

None of the leave campaigns touted no deal as a valid option so you couldn't he more wrong if you tried.

They didnt but negotiations is a two way street , you cannot force the eu to agree to what leave wanted.



Therefore no deal is the logical outcome of voting brexit if agreement cannot be made,  but as it happens johnson has an agreement , while remainers cannot agree the best way forward except to stay in the eu against the democratic vote.

Such reflects back on you - I'm not a 'labour remainer' so it once again shines the light on guileless provincial attitudes and a reductive "sassenachs vs jocks" "remoanturds vs brexshiters" attitude - and other nice attitudes.



You can stick your tribalism.

 ::



Except your remian / leave tribalism.



At least i am honest and consistent unlike you you feckin hypocrite and anti democrat. :hattip

I wouldn't mind any of the options, except for no-deal and Boris's last deal which he deliberately made to be as unsupportable as possible

what about theresa mays deal?

No he doesn't want no deal. Yours is no argument.

diversion . Im merely highlighting the fact your absurd proposition that brexit belongs to the right wing and billionaires has more holes than a tea bag.

You'll spite yourself (not selves because I happen to know that most Scits do not share your kamikaze position) just to spite us wee sassenach gobshite pish-talkers?



Fair enough! Good luck with that!

supporting democracy is spiteing myself??? ::  :oops:



Guilty as charged your honour , im a democrat who supports democracy.

[Borg Refinery]

I have been posting on political forums almost as long as the interwebby has existed.



In that time , i have spoken to people from many countries , on many forums  , and the one thing people across the western world if not the entire planet agree on is democracy isnt fair at times , and could be greatly improved on.



In the uk , we had the farce of the scottish devolution referendum of 1979 , where due to robin cooks stitch up which meant in effect the yes side could never have won , a 52% majority was overturned in favour of yes.



I dont see english remainers calling for a re run of this.



We had tony blair win a 66 seat majority in the 2005 general election on less than a quarter of the elctorate on a poor turnout , where the tories won 72 000 votes more than labour  , yet labour won a landslide victory.



I dont see english remainers calling for a re run of this.



Outside the uk , we had trump in the states win less votes than the despicable hilary clinton , but their system like ours being unfair gave trump the victory.



So political history in many countries is riddles with results that are unfair  , including the uk multi national state , yet people had to accept the result and move on.



Time you accepted democracy , warts and all  , too ,and moved on .

That's a daft argument. Because they got it wrong before we have to accept getting it wrong a million more times.



No. And no they are not the same things - NDBrexit will be far worse for Scotland, England etc than all of that. It is an absurd argument.

Theres nothing contradictory about my position.Of the two of us , im the democrat not you.



I agree you should have another referendum , but only once due process has been followed .



That process is what we all knew before we voted in 2016 , that the winners will get the result implemented.Once that happens , you will have satisfied democracy , and are then free to campaign for another referendum for england to rejoin the eu in the future , but not before brexiters are awarded their victory.

No. No one voted for no deal.



None of the leave campaigns touted no deal as a valid option so you couldn't he more wrong if you tried.


 

::



Thats the trouble with you labour toady remainer types.



Labour arent that bright , and you all think everyone is a s stupid as you are.

Such reflects back on you - I'm not a 'labour remainer' so it once again shines the light on guileless provincial attitudes and a reductive "sassenachs vs jocks" "remoanturds vs brexshiters" attitude -  and other nice attitudes.



You can stick your tribalism.  :kikass:

Let me translate for you , what you mean is you would have accepted a brexit in name only , where england stays in the cu , accpets freedom of movement and everything else , the very things folk voted against , while you try and claim brexit has been delivered(in name only) while in reality the opposite is true.

^

Dont talk utter shite.

I wouldn't mind any of the options, except for no-deal and Boris's last deal which he deliberately made to be as unsupportable as possible

Jeremy corbyn has been a life long brexiter all his political life. While he might be a north islington millionaire champagne socialist , he certainly isnt far right.

No he doesn't want no deal. Yours is no argument.

Another diversion from your weak anti demcratic argument.

It is completely relevant.

Possibly , but if we are forced to stay in the uk for a while longer , then i will put up with it as long as democracy is enacted and brexit is done.



Will be worth it to see you anti democratic english remainers get your just desserts.

You'll spite yourself (not  all Scots tho because I happen to know that most Scots do not share your kamikaze position) just to spite us wee sassenach gobshite pish-talkers?



Fair enough! Good luck with that!